Maybe a good starting point would be some questions articulated by Joyce at the end of the last thread:

quote:

---

Like snowpea, I'd like to hear some practical applications. Should I sell all of my stuff and donate the $ to the hungry? Should all religions be banned? Should we be more involved with Linda Goodman's theories? Is it competition? Is that bad? Is war always inappropriate? When is it okay to retaliate?
What is your role in your spiritual community? What is spirituality as you understand it? Is it tied into Linda Goodman and astrology?

---

No, I don't think we can or should "ban" religions. As much harm as organized religions have done throughout history by justifying holy wars, crusades, and inquisitions ... and giving authoritarian leaders a rationale for claiming unchallengeable divine authority for their edicts ... religion is also the only connection most of the world has with spirituality, and to take that away (even if we COULD) would be to leave to leave most people with nothing but a secular materialism as a guiding light, and that leads nowhere we want to go. The experience of those political systems that tried to "outlaw" religion (e.g., Communism) is not a positive one. What I DO think we should do is to make our voices heard that fundamentalist religion of the "we have the only answer and everyone else is going to hell" variety is no longer supportable in the world, and this goes for fundamentalism of EVERY variety: Christian fundamentalists that bomb abortion clinics and beat up gays (or morally support such actions even if they don't commit them) are no better than Islamic fundamentalists who kill White Devils. Nobody's God says "hate your neighbor," and the world needs to be told we ain't buying it anymore. As much as I dislike the term "political correctness," we need to relentlessly pound world consciousness with the notion that hate-based fundamentalism is "politically incorrect" and will not be tolerated.

Should we be more involved with Linda Goodman's ideas, and with astrology? Well, it sure wouldn't hurt to spread Linda's ideas of love and magic, or her view of humanity as immortal spirits temporarily occupying a physical reality for the purpose of soul growth, or her expectation for an emerging world consciousness of Light and Love in the Aquarian age. But I don't think we should deify Linda or turn her ideas into dogma. She was an incredibly gifted and visionary teacher who had the ability to touch us deeply with Love as well as to communicate metaphysical concepts that have a universal resonance. But she would be the last to ask anyone to take her as a final authority on anything, and there is great danger in putting a personality rather than a principle at the forefront of our quest for Truth and peace. The truths that Linda taught, and the spiritual insights of astrology, can be found in many traditions and expressed by many teachers, each in their own language and frame of reference. Those of us who have been personally touched by Linda's vision would do well to continue using it as a basis for understanding and communicating about spirituality, cosmic order, and the primacy of Love as the underlying foundation of reality in both mortal and eternal expression. But I see no value in proselytizing a Linda Goodman dogma. Too many dogmas already! What needs to be "proselytized," if anything, is simply spiritual love, however anyone can best connect with it.

What is my role in the spiritual community, and what is spirituality as I understand it? Well I think these questions apply to each of us individually. I have no "spiritual authority" beyond what each of us has in our connection with our higher S-elf - which is actually the ultimate spiritual authority! My role in the spiritual community is simply to seek and speak the Truth of Love as best I can, and to encourage others to do the same. My understanding of spirituality is at root a very simple one: I think we are all expressions of God, that in essence we are all ONE eternal spirit expressing through an infinite variety of unique viewpoints, and that once we really get that we will automatically love our brothers and sisters as ourselves ... because they ARE ourselves! Why would my right hand beat up on my left hand? Why would my liver declare war on my kidneys? All the "parts" of me aid and cooperate with the other "parts" of me because they are all aspect of an underlying unity ... and that extends to the "parts" of me that are outside the boundaries of my skin and ego. When individual cells in my body forget this underlying harmony (which could also be called Love), the result is cancer. When individual bodies and egos forget it, the result is a world torn by war and hate and poverty and strife in all the forms that we see too much around us.

Is competition bad? Is war always inappropriate? When is it okay to retaliate? I don't think competition is intrinsically "bad." It is one of the mechanisms of evolution and growth and creative diversity. All games have an element of competition in them, and it may not be inappropriate to see the separation of God-consciousness into individual centers of awareness as a "game" God is playing with hirself, for the purpose of experiencing Love. But there is a big difference between the competition of a game that spurs everyone to creativity and growth, and the competition of a "zero-sum" game where the end point is for one player to annihilate the others. THAT kind of game is what we call war, and yes I think it's always inappropriate ... it's inimical to the fundamental aims of life and spirit. But here's the really tough one: we live in a physical world where there IS war and violent aggression - and in that setting, when (if ever) is it okay to "retaliate?"

Well I can only speak from my own perspective, of course. I have been a martial artist for most of my life, and there HAVE been times when I've found myself in unavoidable conflict situations. The "spiritual warrior" ethic that guides me personally in such situations is this: first, do everything humanly possible to avoid a fight - and it's almost always possible if you're willing to let your ego take a back seat. Second, if it's NOT possible to avoid (basically, when the only alternative is to allow an aggressor to kill or injure you or another innocent), then put everything you have into quickly ending the conflict and restoring harmony. If you attack me and there is nothing I can do to dissuade you or avoid the attack, I will certainly fight you. But I will not fight as your "enemy," I will fight as your brother aiming to protect us both from the negative results of your mistaken disturbance of the harmony. That may very well mean breaking your bones if that's the only way to end the attack. If so, then so be it -- you chose the aggressive action, and it's not my job to protect you from the consequences of that choice, which you need to experience for your OWN learning. As my current favorite songwriter put it:

quote:

---

We'll fight,
not out of spite,
but someone must stand up
for what is right.

- Jewel

---

Wow, this post has gotten really long, and I'm not sure I've done much to set out possible concrete courses of action that we might undertake to help solve the world's ills ... but maybe it's enough of a starting point to build on. I'm really interested to hear others' viewpoints and ideas. Onward and upward!

Love,
Greg

3rd World countries are ploughing so much money back into paying of their countries world debt that they will never be finanicialy in the possition to build more robuest infrastructures. Lobbying for 3rd world debt wiping may be one of the more effective methods of increasing stability in less financaily able contries.

A second issue here is power of consumer spend. One of the way that folks in this country managed to assist the abolishion of appartide in south affric was to hit them in their wallet. There was a lot of consumer campaging to NOT buy south affrican products such as oranges etc. I know it seems trivial, but when the glorious masses user thei spending power collectively the effects hit the oppressive govenment really where it hurts. Raising awarness of poor working conditions withing specific countries and buying product made in countries where workers are paid a suitable minimum wadge is a means of promoting a better standard of living within less financially stable countries. It may sound like pie in the sky tactic, but buy spending 1 or 2 dollars more on brand of products who are associated with good human rights does have an effect on oppressive regimes, far more than sending in armys to devostate people.

Lov n hugs

Lis

As I`ve said before I`m pretty Unwordly regards to current affairs and 3rd World schimozzels
But from all I`ve seen over the years of my short life,I think the best place to start would be to take all their Guns off them

Without the weapons they may undergo a brainstorm
They really don`t have to spend all their time at opposite sides of a dividing line shooting and attempting to outdo those on the other side of the fence
Usually a Religious conflict

It`s not the Religion which causes the Wars,but mans inability to live and let live regards others Religious beliefs

And you can only really help others by helping them help themselves
It`s no good just sending a few Planes overhead and dropping CornFlakes every once in a while
But you can`t really help them at all all the while their main concerns are running around killing each other

One only has to look at the backgrounds of the Countries involved in the recent America/Afghanistan conflict to see who`se right and who`se wrong

America,chiefly New York involves masses of people working together and helping one another towards a higher goal or better life

Afghanistan,like I said,seems to be a place consisting of Public Executions,bodies littering the Streets and heavy internal Warfare also

As I said I`m quite naive such topics and like the vast majoroty all I know is what I learn through television and Newspapers
All of which appears to be bad

It seems to me that some of these Nations have fallen so far behind,it`s really a case of going back to basics and beginning from step 1

The first thing ...
Unite them amongst themselves !!

Yellow

You did a great job. Although beautifully written, you didn't write just a bunch of pretty words. There was substance and backup, and I was touched. I have to agree with almost everything that you said.

Mayor Rudolpph Giuliani just gave a farewell speech at St. Paul's Chapel in NY. The grandson of Italian immigrants, Giuliani said that "the greatest strength that we have as a city is immigration, and keeping ourselves open to people." We don't have to live in NY to keep ourselves open to people. If we seek out someone who feels different than we are - another race, another nationality, another sexual orientation - and get to know them, we are making a good start. As our friends begin to mix, we can widen the effect.
An example:
My freshman college roommate was black (1969), and became a close friend. I had never talked to a black person before college. Because of the experience, my friends are no longer limited to white/protestants. I share my friends, so different types of people are mixing.

Remember when your mother told you .... "Don't speak to strangers?" Forget that. Keep yourself safe, but go ahead and be friendly. You are no longer a child and you can handle yourself. Your twin-soul, soul-mate, whatever - just might not look like you.

And, Aries, you have a heart of gold.

Love -
Joyce

1. Put aside what $ you can manage for the poor.
2. Practice religious tolerance.
3. Try to treat people with love.
4. Do everything possible to avoid war, but you must stand up for what is just. In our own lives, this could mean standing up against racist people, gossipy people, petty people, clicky people who exclude, bullies, etc. You mustspeak up when you know an injustice has been done.
5. Don't buy products made in countries where workers have poor working conditions, and are not paid the minimum wage.
6. Lobby for wiping out 3rd world debt.
7. Get to know different kinds of people - another race, nationality, older, younger, different income level, different dress, etc.

Can you add to our group list? Maybe we really call can make a small difference.

the lounge is the young ones chatting...not a club or anything. !

It will pick up when folk come back from christmas, ther are not many people around at the momnet.

Lov n hugs

Lis

Thanks for summarizing the ideas so far, Joyce (don't have any Virgo in you, do you? ). The Lounge is our "young people's thread," or started out that way, so it's more chatty and boyfriend/girlfriend oriented by nature. If you can come up with a catchier title for this thread, I'll change it ... but it's probably okay to let it start offf slowly, it's a "heavy" subject that not everybody is comfortable diving into right away. Please DO chime in though, folks! The more thoughts we have to throw into the stew, the better chance we'll come up with some worthwhile ideas. Group mind, you know!

Lis, I think your idea for third world debt-wiping hits right at the core of the problem (or one of them) ... but its a tricky one because of the way global finance works. The way it is set up in many underdeveloped countries is that multinational companies go into a third world country to "develop" its resources. They use their banking connections to obtain loans that are nominally to the countries, but are really to the corporations, which use them to build large industrial enterprises that extract local resources and use cheap local labor to produce products and commodities primarily for export. This creates jobs but destroys the traditional local economies, leaving the countries dependent on global imports for food and other basic necessities that they formerly produced for themselves, PLUS owing billions of dollars for the development. On top of that, the local land and resources are used as "collateral" for the loans, so when they are defaulted on, the bankers (and their corporate cronies) gain ownership and control of the country's major assets. When the IMF or other global finance organizations suggest "debt wiping" (which sounds very humanitarian), what they often mean is defaulting the loans and seizing the assets! This is a real scam, and it's a hard one to fight because so few people understand how international finance works -- yet it is the principal means of domination and control in the world today, having replaced colonialism as the "preferred" means of wielding global power.

So I would add to the list, "education" -- educating ourselves in the way the global power structure really works, and taking every opportunity to spread this awareness to others. Ignorance is the most dangerous weapon here, and the powers that be are masters at creating problems and then offering "solutions" to them that sound good but actually only consolidate the centralized power structure.

I'm happy to see that most of the ideas on our list so far are personal actions that we can take as individuals, rather than sweeping institutional changes or ideologies, 'cause I think that's where it has to happen, on a ver individual and "grass roots" level. We can't depend on the big institutions to come up with fixes, because they are hard-wired into the old power structure regardless of what glowing and humanitarian rhetoric they may apply to their solutions.

Let's keep adding to the list, and maybe we can also start concretizing it more. For example, what humanitarian aid organizations can we trust to use our contributions in ways that will really get the aid to those who need it? Anybody done any research in that area?

Love,
Greg

I'm not massively knowledagble about wolrd debt or about how financing in 3 world contries works per sey, however I know the UK wiped 100% of the debt of the 26 poorest countries last year. If the other powerfuly countries did the same it would account for 40% of the total debt of these countries. That's without the IMC being involved. This surely has to help the growing ecconomies.

I also had an additional though re consumer purchasing power. Finding out the appropriate brand to not by and the appropraite brands to by and writting to your local press regularly. A lot of the unofficail sanctions against south africa here was done through word of mouth.

I think it's possitive for all of us to focus primarily on things we can do as individuals as creating change has start at home. IT's mroe difficult to change broader issues.

One of the probelms that needs to be address is the way the United Nations is funded. Too much of the money comes from the US which makes it easy to be seen as abusing the organsiation. I read some very interesting transcription on their website earlier in the year where clearly there was abuse of the heirrachie.

Famine releife in the 80's from the feed the world campagin focused not on resolving purely the imediate issues but to focus upon helping countries help themselve. The administration of releife activies in terms of beig appropraite to meet the needs of people concerned is a realy issue that needs to be tackeled. Creating dependance on strogner countires is massively resented. But how one does that on an individual level I do not know.

Finally and most probably the most unpopular opinion I'll express on this site. Is that NO country has the right to force it's political oppinions on developing countries. They are not children, if they want to have a revolution then developed contries should allow them to do so. It's ther country and they understand thier culture better than foreigners ever can. Just my own oppinion which I'd gaurantee to be unpopular.

Love and hugs

Lis

Wouldn't it be terrific if our little group here, could really start to bring world peace with our ideas?????

Luv,
Rainbow~

very very good ideas thus far...

my idea -- not a new one, but you really can raise the vibrations of the planet by becoming a vegetarian...

Linda has some wonderful guidelines for this in Star Signs.

Love and Light from snowpea

snowpea, I don't eat much meat, but I'm not a vegetarian. I have often thought about becoming one. I'm going to give it some serious thought.

Oh, this is way off the topic, but - snowpea and I have the same sun, moon, rising signs. We also have venus in Taurus in the 4th house. I wonder if we look something alike? We could post pictures for comparison. I could come up with a pic taken at your age, or a current one. It would be interesting and maybe fun for everyone. What do you think, snowpea?

I never give $ to charity organizations, but I do much for friends and family. When the people closest to us need help, we should do what we can for them. More effort should be made in staying connected to our families and long time friends. Maybe that could go on the list. But, if we, as a group, decided on one agreed upon charity, I would donate some $.

I believe with all my heart that humanity is READY for a shared reality built on Love rather than separation ... and that the Internet is at this time in history at least the starting point for a global nervous system that truly reflects shared reality (rather than the centrally-constructed and one-way broadcast system of mass media that until now has "told" us what reality to support and believe in.) This is the cusp of an evolutionary shift in consciousness, the opportunity of a lifetime (or of many, many lifetimes) to change the course of history. Whatever ideas we come up with that are both practical and loving WILL make their way into the emerging global brain and make a real difference!

Lis, didn't mean to discourage your idea of debt wiping, just wanted to emphasize that things are not always what they seem in the financial world, and that any solutions on that order need to be looked at really closely to make sure they actually do what they "seem" to be intended to do. Genuine wiping of the impossibly unrealistic debt that the global banking system has imposed on ALL the nations (including the developed nations) is something that must eventually come to pass if we are ever to live in a free and cooperative global society. Just to put this in perspective, 100% of the income taxes collected from americans goes to paying off our debt to the international bankers (strange but true - all new Federal spending, including foreign aid, comes from the issuance of Treasury bills, which is NEW debt that our children will have to pay off ... except that they never can. The two top banking families in the world - Rothschilds and Rockefellers - control combined assets greater than all the National governments in the world. Yes, we are talking about private families who basically "own" the world!) In any event, debt-wiping is definitely an idea worth pursuing and lobbying for.

Snowpea, vegetarianism and any other actions we can take that raise our spiritual vibrations and shift consciousness toward reverence for all life is surely worthwhile.

Joyce, I'm with you on the "charity begins at home" front. I too give generously to those in need that I know personally - even homeless people on the streets - before writing a check to an aid organization that may take 60% off the top for executive salaries and administrative costs, then lose a bit more every step of the way getting the aid to its intended recipients. (I have a built-in distrust of large organizations and institutions, if you haven't noticed! ))

However, I have made modest donations to the Red Cross, the September 11th Fund and the Islamic Relief Fund recently, with some assurance that the help is going where intended. I'll research this some more myself, and any info others have about useful ways of rendering aid will be very helpful.

I do agree with your reasoning about loving and strengthening your family ... it's the fundamental social unit, and the place where we learn our values and experience the meaning of loving community. No way to build a global family on a solid foundation if our own immediate families are divided and unsupportive.

Love,
Greg

Having said that, Lis, you stated that - "no country has the right to force its political opinions on developing countries." I can't let that go. We can't consider all cultural norms and practices just fine, thank you. The treatment of women in Afghanistan under the Taliban (and other nations still) should never be excused or tolerated as a form of religious expression. It is wrong to deny anyone an education, health care and basic civil rights, and as Americans, we should be unafraid to proclaim that to the world.
As the Marines say, "Nobody wants to fight, but it's a good idea for somebody to know how." Our special forces went in, made contact with friendly forces and earned their trust, called for air support, and called for resupply. In just over 90 days, these men organized a nationwide revolt and helped overthrow an oppressive regime. The Afghan forces have played down the American role. That is just fine. They did most of the fighting, and they deserve the credit. There can be justice in war and it is important to be able to wage it well. All sensible people are antiwar, but there are things in life worth fighting and dying for.

Okay. I spouted my thoughts. I couldn't help it.

Greg, I don't have much Virgo, just in Saturn. I hope I'm not dampening your sun, ever. I think your sun in Virgo is very beautiful. I make lists to stay "on goal". My philosophy is more, "Keep it smart; keep it simple." I don't like to get bogged down in details that could keep me away from my target. i.e I am passionate about golf. If I focus too much on my swing I lose track of the main goal, which it to get the ball in the hole in as few strokes as possible.

It's important for everyone to know that they can take what they want from the list, whatever works for them. Just leave the rest of the list behind. The goal is we want to make changes toward world peace. Most of us can't do much to change government policies, nations, religious practices, etc. We can change ourselves and how we think and feel. We can reflect when we read different opinions. I am seriously thinking about not eating meat, for example.
Lis, have a great day.
Love,
Joyce

Ide say your pretty mild for an aries sun conjunct moon too! You gave some great ideas..and like Greg,I am also very wary of giving to these organizations,but thats because we know there is always someone "taking a slice of the pie". It would be wonderful if we truly knew who we could trust that way. I think a good example is to look at all the money that was raised since Sept 11..millions and millions of dollars..then to hear some families who lost the major breadwinner in the family are now facing losing their homes..this is an OUTRAGE and theres no excuse for the sickness and lack of compassion when it comes to the ones handling this money. So please keep us informed if there is ANY truly honest group to donate money too,although I have my doubts,unfortunately,with that one.(how would we really know??) Again, I cant really offer any more than has already been said here..as I know all to well about human nature,as sad as it is. What I do know, is we have an awful long way to go.For now it can only start with ourselves,and at home.
Joyce,I gave up on the red meat,and I dont know if its a coincidence,but probably moreso in conjunction with~ my own growth due to other things,but the aggressions are slowly leaving my body and being replaced with much compassion etc.We were instructed in early days about the eating of "blood" and I truly now understand a lot of this.
Love and blessings to you Joyce,(your energies are very loving and caring) and everyone else.

I've been away the last week or more, because of my hellish retail job (you know how that can get around the holidays). And I will write more on this subject when I actually am allowed a day off, but in the meantime, I have been wandering towards a realization concerning my "job loathing".

I think I am very uncomfortable with the way my employers push materialism and waste. They try and trick you with numbers and visual effects, and it doesn't matter whether these products are destuctive to your body or your environment, the bottom line is "Did you break last years sales amounts? Well, why not? You're pathetic! You go out there and convince these customers that they NEED these things!!" The employees hear this every week at the managers meetings. If they want to keep their jobs and make top dollar, they push their underlings until they literally get sick (like I have been).

Of course, they tell the public how charitable they are. They asked the employees to donate money to the WTC (a very close to home subject since we are located in NJ). So we did. And they put up a big poster in the window on how much THEY (as a corporation) donated. Then they threw a big swanky party, complete with prizes and champagne, to celebrate how well they did this year. Gag.

I think the first thing I want to do to help is to get my massage therapy/ reiki / art / healing career going and quit this dis-eased company that poisons my soul and manipulates the people.

I feel like my eyes are just beginning to open.

Luv,
Rainbow~

I just returned from a walk and noticed signs announcing peace walks all durying this next week.(mainly new years day) It may not bring us instant peace,but may spur people to start a walking programme,which in turn can make them feel better physically,mentally and emotionally..and hence spiritually. There is a definite connection with body,mind and spirit...

I'm sure we're all familiar with the frustration of of not being able to 'save the world, or feed everyone, or fix everything' instantly....but I'm learning that in order to help, I must learn some skills first...some wisdom...and discover some gifts I didn't know I had!
...as I grow, I'm presented with more opportunities to help others...some of them challenging ...some easier...but all of them possible using skills of unconditional love. I am not given a task that is beyond me.
Aus

best of luck, light and love to you on your new adventure in mining the depths of your heart with your artistic talent on your own special journey of work/love...i know you will prosper and shine!!

snowpea

please love and love and love

~snowpea

Wonderful thoughts and energy, and we might even be making progress toward a practical manifesto.

'Night all, more tomorrow!

Love,
Greg

It is a great list. Keep it going.

What I especially like about the ideas we've come up with is that - although they include lobbying and support of initiatives that are far-reaching, they are oriented toward things we can each do as individuals, and I really think that's the key; because when we change our own hearts and awareness to act from a more loving and globally-aware perspective that can touch others and spread from the ground up in a way that has a real chance of making a difference -- whereas ideas that begin with massive institutions and governments changing their policies are much less within our power to alter directly.

Without putting any closure on our list, maybe it's time to start thinking about how we can organize and focus these ideas to spread them to others - and also to keep ourselves focused on them so that they become real guidelines for practical action in our lives, rather than just concepts tossed out on a discussion thread and then forgotten!

I'm not sure exactly what I mean here ( ), but perhaps we could create a "reminder mailing list" for those who want to actively participate ... a list that could spread beyond this site to others interested in making real changes in the world. Maybe people with a strong interest in one or more of these ideas could take "ownership" of that idea and delve more deeply, presenting recommendations and research findings to the rest of us. Perhaps those elements that call for lobbying or encouraging specific government/institutional changes could be supported by petitions or manifestos, and we could sponsor obtaining support for them and presenting them to the relevant institutions. I dunno, just fishing for ways to extend the "practical" side of this to actually make a difference!

Love,
Greg

Do you have any Aries in you, besides your moon? You've got a nose for the target.

Perhaps it is time to end the list. Maybe you could e-mail it to all of the Linda Goodman members. That would be a start. You could say:
Happy New Year -
We wish for world peace in the year 2002. Members of the Linda Goodman Forum have composed a group list to enable each of us to live more peaceful and meaningful lives. We hope the changes we make in our own thoughts, feelings, and actions will affect others. Let it start with us.

Edit the list.

It also would be helpful if the following people started topics:
1. Lis - What products should we not buy (or buy) and why? What have you discovered in your research?
2. Aries - Why do we need to regularly exercise in our lives? Is one form of exercise better than another? A good title might be ... Positive Addictions.
3. snowpea - How do you get the right amount of protein in your diet when you are a vegetarian? Maybe you could type out a vegetarian diet for a few days.

As far as getting our list out to a wider public, I'm not sure. You'll probably get backlash for sending it to the Linda Goodman members. People don't like being told what to do. You'll have to be careful to say, "Just take from the list whatever works for you."

Happy New Year -
Love,
Joyce

I'm sorry if I let you down. If anyone wants to contribute more to the list, I would be very happy to continue on as my role as the "secretary".

Love,
Joyce

Absolutely, I think we should keep adding to the list as and if bolts of lightning strike us, but meanwhile this would be a good time to start taking some of the steps you suggested - I don't think we're ready for a mass email campaign just yet, but I do think that some such method of communicating our ideas widely is called for at some point. But this WOULD be a good time to divide the labor and drill more deeply into the elements that interest us. So how about considering this a "call for volunteers?" Whoever has strong opinions (or just a strong interest) in one or more of these areas, how about "signing up" to do a bit of background research and recommendations? This could be done either by starting a new topic for that area as Joyce suggested, or just by writing a few paragraphs of guidance and ideas. I'll help organize these into a convenient browsable format that we can discuss and add to, and when we're all convinced that we have something useful to share, we'll figure out how to publish and distribute it. Maybe its an email, maybe its a newsletter, maybe it's a whole new Change the World sub-site. What say? Volunteers?

Love,
Greg

By inuslating against examining the cause of action one fails to even identify the issue let alone generate sultions.

My posts were in no way about blame. I wasn't takign about fundementalists merely the normal person in the street who's life is affected every day by the acts within their community.

The UK certainly has abused power throughout the course of history...what do yout hink the whole english culture of appology is all about.

Randal, as for that people outside the US not understanding, oh I think we understand pretty well. We live the threat of terrorism on a daily basis, most of Europe does because it is so accessable.

Take the IRA, they are evil dooers, but there are fundementally good causes that lie at the bottom of the pile of misguided violent actions. By failing to address these issues the north of Ireland had more than 30 years of volence to contend with on a daily basis.

I wont particiapte further as I really don't think this thread is about finding an international based solutions. I don't think that an international perspective is welcomed. So I'll leave y'all to it.

Lov n hugs

Lis

Sure there are going to be some things we do not see eye to eye on -- that will ALWAYS be the case, as it will ALWAYS be the case in the world. If the only solution is to go away and stop talking, what does that say about the possibility of ever getting to world peace? If we can't hang in with each other long enough to bat ideas around and try to come to a mutual understanding what hope is there?

I'm mystified, Lis -- take a look at the list of ideas we came up with. Why would you say that we're not interested in finding an international solution? That's the WHOLE POINT of what we're trying to find! I spent a LONG time yesterday writing a very carefully reasoned explanation for why Americans tend to get angry when this issue is discussed in terms of "Americans are greedy and power-hungry" etc. and tried to do it in a balanced and loving way. When someone says "Americans" are greedy and dominating etc., they are talking about ME, because I am an American, and of course I find it insulting -- as well as untrue! Yes, to be sure, there are some elements within the American power-structure that are coercive and have done great harm, as such elements have wormed their way into all powerful governments, but the result of attributing the faults of these coercive elements to "Americans" is an emotional twist that damages our ability to discuss these issues peacefully, because "Americans" who don't do these things feel unfairly characterized ... so I suggested laying the "blame" where it really lies, not on "countries" and their citizens, but on the financial/military/industrial elements who use America and other nations to achieve their own ends. How is that suggestion inimical to finding an international solution?

Come on, Lis, let's work together and get past this.

Love,
Greg

Part of the reson I'm upset is because you guys are hearing soemthing that has NEVER been said, certainly not from me. I never mentioned greedy or power "hungry". That said some of the transcription of the UN site clearly show that there is an abuse of power, but that was not where I'm comming from at all.

I also said western cultures, not US. Western countries are democratic so weather we vote or not we are in a very minor respect responcible for the acts that OUR govenements get involved in.

I came face to face with stark realisties of these situation through work at the tail end of last year. With a real live audience.

Where I was comming from, is that We the WESTERN world need to HEAR what the issues are. Not the violence or acts to raise awarness but to actually make a point of finding out what is actually happening from an arabic perspective regardign what THEY see are the problems.

I think an issue here is that there there is a premtion of what those issues are. I think from my understandign that 95% of the issue if that the arabic communities feel unheard. Sort of tattoing it on my arse and wandering aroudn here naked...not a sight I would recommend personally, I don't know how better to communicate that.

How does one really understand the arabic community, speaking to them, getting pen pals, educating ourselves on their issues. The average person in the street over there is not a terrorist. They are just normal people who are livign in a war torn society, suffering the effects oft his day and night. Childern with guns and littlers of shells on the streets. Horizons with barbed wire, that's not living to me.

Sorry I was touched by some of the accounts I heard, but I think shying away from the realities of other peopels world is not a way to resolve the problem. Ok so the intial hit of any discussion might inform us of things we don't want to hear, but by god it will open the eyes regardign what and who we are voting for and how we can affect and prevent further conflicts.

I'll shut up now

L

There are very reasonable reasons that the arabic comminty is ticked of with the west.

Some of the issues are about a lack of forums that are unbiased by where the money comes from. Where one country carries an equal say in the voting crieria. Where there is a global legislative community of national representation that is not lead by pounds, dollars or dracma.

The UN is fundementally paid for by western govenement (and yes dominantly by the US govenemernt). However if the western govenement is corrupting the decsion making progess because they pay for it more than the east...huston...we have a problem.

World goverenment needs to change in structure to ensure that the more developed contries are not bullying the little guys. Think of them as the kids that get their heads flushed down the loos at school because they are puney.

How do we as individuals actually managed to facilitate that. Because at an INDIVDUAL leve we can create a collectively consiousness of what is actually happening, AND by educating our neighbours, by communicating domestically the need for change. By taking less developed countries issues and making them our own untill such times as they have the same power to control their environements as we have the luxury of doing so.

But unless we can get to the roots of what these less able contries really need as reforms how can we possibly formulate a solution that effectively addresses the issue?

My point is not about balme, or one side of the atlantic against the other, nor is it about the US agaisnt the Arabic commuity. It's about our ability to hear what the problems really are over there.

There are bound to be issues that simply can not be addressed but unless the west is prepared to listen and understand as best we can, then the agression will just get greater.

more than enough already

Lis

So what this means is that as individuals, and like the purpose of this thread, we can do this for ourselves, work on ourselves and our issues to bring on more awareness in our own 'worlds' - our communities and families, in order to raise the vibrations of the collective mind of our world, where we give birth to more aware children who will make the changes we so want to make now. We are the parents of these children - this is our role, we are parenting in a new paradigm. Work on us to a stage where we can accept all religions and races in our own community and love them unconditionally and be able to do this because you are so firmly rooted in your own self - your are in touch with your own inner wisdom and thus can accept others without feeling the threat that they may change you. Accept everyone who seems at odds with you and your beliefs and even the weird neighbour you've never really liked and the person who has done you the most 'wrong' and the shopkeeper who shortchanged you yesterday. When you accept them, they accept you, it is the mirror. We need to release all jugdgement and blame and take responsibility for our own lives and yes, speak out when necessary but allow others to find their own way because until they can walk it themselves, they will not listen to anything you say, even if you walk it - they need to discover it for themselves becaues if they don't, it's not authentic. Walking your talk helps a lot though All this is being a loving 'parent'. You can only be a leading example in your own life. You push others and they push you back. But be happy in your own ways, your own world and environment and be happy knowing others will find their way just as you have and you will embody the necessary energy that effects people subconsciously adn energetically, because ultimately, we all want to be happy and loved. So love and be loved. All roads lead to Rome and Home. Make a difference in your community using some of the suggestions listed that you relate to and eventually we will Comm-unicate in Unity for One World.

It takes much honesty, much commitment and lots of personal shadows and conditioning to work through in order to change yourself but it's worth it and the energies in this world are there to help you. Not many people take it on right now because it's not easy because not many have paved the way so you do the harder work that makes it a little easier for others, like our children, but like someone said here, we are not given tasks that we cannot handle. And the re-birth makes up for the labour pains and then it's all becomes like a dim memory

Love,
moonglow

Love,
moonglow

You're absolutely right, we DO need to hear and understand the point of view of the third world, we obviously cannot live in peace if we can't even listen to one another. And here is where great skill as spiritual diplomats is necessary, because it is absolutely critical that this understanding is conveyed in a non-judgmental way, so that it is not perceived as an attack. As Moonglow put it so insightfully, when pushed we push back, and that goes for all of us. As we evolve and gain wisdom we hopefully become mere centered and less reactive, but as long as we are partly biological organisms we will always have some reactive element. And as soon as dialog turns from being exchange of information and ideas to push-and-push-back, the dialog loses its value as a vehicle for moving toward peace.

If you are as passionate about this as you seem to be, then I urge you to take that as a calling. Help us to hear - in a way that doesn't make us feel personally attacked - what the third world sees as the problems and the solutions. If you can do that, you will have contributed an enormous amount toward our quest for understanding and action that leads to world peace, and I'll help you any way I can.

How about it, are you up for it?

Love,
Greg

I'm sorry to have got my nickers in such a knot. But I do feel so very strongly that the crux of the real issue lies in (govenment) communication systems and abilites of smaller countries to be heard.

I was greatly touched by my very tiny experience of hearing the views of the Arab community. They were SO very reasonable. I take your point that's it more about the thrid world than any specific community.

I do feel that there are some very real cultural issue underlying our own conflict here on these forums. I will start another thread to discuss this as a "walking home grown individual solution".

I will participate as best I can in assisting gaining insight into the views of the east and in educating ourselves regarding their issue. I wont go tattoing my anatomy just yet. Thankfully!

I will also get my head around the way forward with actually hearing what the issues are. There is much that can be done so very easily. And I know that there is much to learn about the problems with Global Government and what the less able world actually faces.

We may all come from different culture and communitie, speak different languages, but it's one world. Mathematics is the only language that's comes close to being global..HOW SAD is that?

x=y+2q-z

L

You cannot foster an open mind if you teach any dogma. Giving people answers is manipulative and controlling. Instead, help them articulate their questions and begin the search for their answers. Empower them on their journeys of self-understanding. And let them know that the community is a place where they can share ideas without being judged or preached to. Respect the ability of each member to find her way and she will find it.

You cannot foster open-heartedness if you exclude anyone from your community or give preferential treatment to any of the members. People open their hearts when they feel welcome and treated as equals. Nothing closes the heart down quicker than competition for love and attention. Most people are deeply wounded emotionally and react quickly and defensively to even a hint of unfairness, even if it is not intended.

This is why the primary focus of the community must be on clear boundaries and healthy group process. Each person must be given a chance to be heard. Each member must be encouraged not to stuff feelings or hide them from others.

When a safe space is created in which feelings can be expressed without attacking others, misunderstandings, judgments, and projections can be dissolved. ...

It is absurd to assume that this kind of physical, emotional, and mental reconciliation can happen without a loving environment to foster it. Leaving a group together without teaching them guidelines and process skills is like leaving a toddler alone in a house. He may be okay for the first fifteen minutes, but after that he'll find the chemicals under the sink, and the drawer where the knives are stored. You don't want to see the outcome.

And yet you know it. You see it over and over again. As soon as egos rise to attack and defend, it isn't long before the battlefield is strewn with corpses. And then, of course, you have the walking wounded, the ones who have been hit and don't know it yet. You assume that they are normal until you do something to trigger their repressed rage.

No, you don't want to leave a group of wounded people alone to fend for themselves. You want to teach them about boundaries, about how to create and maintain a safe, loving, nonjudgmental space. You want to teach them how to communicate their feelings without blaming others or making others responsible for how they feel.

Many people who join spiritual communities are desperate to find love and acceptance. They will say yes to the guidelines of the community wihtout understanding them. When the time comes that their buttons are pushed, they may explode in rage, attacking all who get in their way. What do you do in such a case?

Well, you can't read the guidelines to them and ask them to follow them! They aren't going to let you correct them or preach to them. The only thing you can do is to practice the guidelines. Take responsibility for your thoughts and feeings. Don't project. Listen without interrupting. Don't allow yourself to be cut off or steamrolled, but ask that you be heard in the same way that you listened. Do not attack. Do not defend. Just ask for equal time. By not making the other person wrong, but insisting on equality, anger is diffused, and the community receives a living demonstration of the guidelines at work.

Thank you for that very fitting and loving excerpt. It goes a long a way toward helping us understand ourselves.

love, snowpea

Some of the figure on the site are out of date so be carefuly of the sell by date. The site does profile each contry in terms of key exports, and where those exports are sold. It's not to say theya re not then repackaged and sent else where

This was the first site I came to when searching for information on this. Please feel free to provide links to better sites.

This link provides data one levels of debt in 1999. www.jubilee2000uk.org/databank/debttables/debtdata99.htm

What is needed is some volenteers to pick one or two contries and research their issues:

Some of the issues might be: do they have a minimum wadge?, what are the human rights issues?, Would amnesty internally have a problem with them? What is the political climate? What is the key export? What acts of god are likely, famine, floods etc. How does the ecconomy support itself.

I will work of one of this sites tables to identify the top 20 wealthless ecconomies and the level of debt they are in and post it here later.

I've plucked the number 20 out of my head....Please let me know if you want ti bigger or smaller? I guess it may well have soemthing to do with how many people will volenteer to help.

Once the social and ecconomic issues are identifies ...I'm guess the messy part happens when knowflakes of each country who recieve these imports will need to identify which brands come from countries unacceptable human conditions. I think that needs to be done locally????

2p*5=wx/g -1

Lis

Ok so that didn't work...
US$ millions unless otherwise stated

Source: GDF 2001 GNP..............fact finder:

Sao Tome and Principe....42
Guinea-Bissau.......... 204
Ethiopia............... 386..............me
Gambia, The............ 581
Guyana................. 621
Sierra Leone........... 652..............me
Burundi................ 705
Mauritania............. 927
Central African Republic..1,035
Togo................... 1,380
Lao PDR................ 1,393
Chad................... 1,513
Congo, Rep............. 1,662
Malawi................. 1,774
Rwanda................. 1,946
Niger.................. 1,990
Nicaragua.............. 2,046
Benin.................. 2,388
Mali................... 2,564
Burkina Faso........... 2,567
Angola................. 2,966
Zambia................. 2,994
Cambodia............... 3,084
Guinea................. 3,603
Madagascar............. 3,666
Mozambique............. 3,730
Haiti.................. 4,308
Senegal................ 4,729
Nepal.................. 5,155...........Proxy
Honduras............... 5,227
Zimbabwe............... 5,234
Yemen, Rep............. 6,171...........Proxy
Equatorial Guinea...... 6,387
Uganda................. 6,397
Jamaica................ 6,557
Ghana.................. 7,634
Bolivia................ 8,122
Cameroon............... 8,719
Tanzania............... 8,725
Sudan.................. 8,819
Cote d'Ivoire.......... 10,425
Kenya.................. 10,475
Vietnam................ 28,682...........me
Nigeria................ 31,432
Morocco................ 34,024
Bangladesh............. 47,211..........Proxy
Peru................... 50,389..........proxy
Philippines............ 80,277
Congo, Dem. Rep..............
Liberia .....................
Myanmar .....................
Somalia .....................

I've edidted out the debt list for now cos this is too long

Sorry I thought it was just as easy to do the lot. The first set of figures are the gross national product.

6t=y+3/b

Lis

Solutions.....actions to be taken....

Wot next?

L

Now look what you did.
The Sun just entered my 6th house.
And your transits say not a good time to start a project.

ok, I'm taken these 4.

Bangladesh............. 47,211
Peru................... 50,389
Nepal.................. 5,155
Yemen, Rep............. 6,171

I'll see if I can come up with a format for the data of the research issues.
(that can be entered here and copy/pasted by others.)

Are those real formuliiiii or just typing grafetti?

One other thing, the growth as a % of GNP.
1. If the contry is negative, more reason to cancel debt.
2. So low as it would take many years and the people would never progress. Maybe partal grace.

TTYL,
Darwin

Maybe it would be a good idea to see what data needs to be collected before you design a proforma?

Some suggestions

Major Exports
Who buys
If the exports are then wholesaled elsewhere.
Polital climate...not sure how this would eb categoriesed
Poltical situation...if there are activist groups within the country?
Health statistics....not sure how to categorise this....

Well that's a few...I'm 100% sure there will be many more.

So my astrology says I shouldn't be doing project work

I just signed on the sleeziest of agencies....yuck....I think I need to wash my hands. But needs must ! ICQ for a short while?

Lis

Vietnam...............28,682
Ethiopia............... 87
Sierra Leone........... 192

Gosh I've worked for companies who make more each year than this countries GDP. Yikes!!!

Lov

L

E-mail coming, with file attached, not to big

Fantastic start....

Can I make a suggestion prior to really getting into the data collection.

By searching and collecting dat we are at real risk of infromation overload even at a very basic level.

The issue being we can collect a whole lot of facts and figures but what we really need is to be able to answer some key questions about each contry. That way when we get the info back it's easy to read.

Such as export...what and who?
Exports for Seira leon
Dimons, Cocoa, and two others
34% UK
8% USA

Industry breaks into; agriculture: 43% industry: 26% services: 31%

Can you see what i mean...

We need to know what information we need to be able to make informed decisions. Trust me...one step back will make 5 steps forward this time next week or the week after.

So what are the really important questions.'
I doubt we will want more than 20 answer?

Lov

Lis

And secondarily, we want to identify which countries are essentially democratic (or at least guarantee their citizens basic human rights), versus those countries that exploit their population (or have ties with corporate interests who do the exploiting), with the idea that economically boycotting products that are the result of exploitive practices will help put an end to those practices.

Are those the essential "big picture" questions we're trying to answer here, or is there more?

Love,
Greg

Sorry I've gone off on one .....

Well to be able to achieve some of the objectives we need to understand a little bit about each country. Human rights, type of debt and to whom, what their exports are and to who, if they ahve a human rights issue, if they have minimum wadges, that type of stuff.

It may be a question of changing brands of products bought, to support that ecconomy or if there is true human rights issue...finding a way of making it felt to that countries govenement without starvign the pople in it.

But if we are doing any for of desk research, experience of this suggests get together a list of questions that need to be answered and then answering them for the poor countries. That way when anyone does the research they generate 2 pages as opposed to 40....cos 40 paged times 20 countries is totally overwhelming.

So what are the key questions that need answering?

Here was the last list...that I can see ont he thread copied down:

1. Put aside what $ you can manage for the poor.

Which are the poorest countries that need the most support?

2. Practice religious tolerance.
What religion are these countries and is ther conflict because of it?

3. Try to treat people with love.

4. Do everything possible to avoid war, but you must stand up for what is just. In our own lives, this could mean standing up against racist people, gossipy people, petty people, clicky people who exclude, bullies, etc. You must speak up when you know an injustice has been done.

Are there serious political conflicts within each country? do they appear just or not?

5. Don't buy products made in countries where workers have poor working conditions, and are not paid the minimum wage.

We need to be careful lest we starve poor countries...but identify what the exports are, where they go, if there is a minimum wadge...it it requires change

6. Lobby for wiping out 3rd world debt.

Whihc countries in aprticular?

7. Get to know different kinds of people - another race, nationality, older, younger, different income level, different dress, etc.

8. Education - Educate ourselves in the way the global power structure really works and spread this awareness.

Again it's the politics within country...can we actually do soemthing with with this one?

9. Consumer Purchasing Power: Find out the appropriate brands to buy and not to buy. Write to your local press regularly.

This is extending #5 but it's all together in there in information gathering.

10. Love starts with the family. Stay connected to family and friends. Charity begins at home.

11. Be aware of the push for materialism and waste. Try not to get caught up in it.

How could recylcling be used to assist 3w countries?

12. Get some exercise - walking, etc. There is a connection with body, mind, and spirit.

13. Respect and love yourself, and do not take your gifts and opportunities for granted. Develop them.

14. Be gentle and kind, especially to those who have the hardest hearts. They need it the most.

15. Spread the love, visiting with friends, warm smiles and hugs to all the year long ... beyond the holiday season.

16. Become vegitarian

Ok I've jotted down a few of the issues that need some information to actually do.

Greg I know you suggested:

quote:

---

I'm not sure exactly what I mean here ( ), but perhaps we could create a "reminder mailing list" for those who want to actively participate ... a list that could spread beyond this site to others interested in making real changes in the world. Maybe people with a strong interest in one or more of these ideas could take "ownership" of that idea and delve more deeply, presenting recommendations and research findings to the rest of us. Perhaps those elements that call for lobbying or encouraging specific government/institutional changes could be supported by petitions or manifestos, and we could sponsor obtaining support for them and presenting them to the relevant institutions. I dunno, just fishing for ways to extend the "practical" side of this to actually make a difference!

---

I think these are a fantastic start point....

Lov n hugs

Lis

Maybe I'll focus on some of the questions in the bigger list that aren't easily addressed by data alone as a starting point. I'm especially interested in #8 (educate ourselves in the way the global power structure really works and spread this awareness) ... this is a tough one because it is really essential to understand, otherwise the vested interests are often able to use our ignorance to their advantage (for example, economic exploitation is often "sold" to us in the guise of "economic development assistance" to underdeveloped nations) - but it's hard to address, because once one begins looking into it deeply there is a lot of paranoia and hysteria surrounding the facts. Many researchers ally themselves with fringe groups, and often present their findings in a sensationalistic way that makes it easy to dismiss them as nutballs or conspiracy freaks. That's easy to understand, because there's some really scary stuff going on behind the scenes of global power once you scratch the surface, but it's not very helpful if it can't be communicated clearly and believably to average folks who don't want to get caught up in wild extremism. I'm gonna ponder this a bit to see if I can come up with a good approach, then I'll start a new thread for it - how about "conspiracy theory for the non-paranoid?"

Onward and upward!

Love,
Greg

hehheheh

em ok I'll put together a list of question and ask people to chime in etc. thne look for some volenteers to get the data .

What are we classing as poor countries; I've listed the bottom 52 in terms of GDP and world debt, but it's an awful lot...should we cut it down or leave it long?

Also is there any questions you would like answered about each country for you cospiracy theory? he he he...love the tiel

love n hugs

Lis

Folks...Please please feel free to add or amend these....

Which charities are active in the country? Is it obvious if these charities are effective or if the countries political structure siphons the cash off?

What religions are dominant in these countries, if any? Is there conflict because of religion?

Who is in power? How did they get there (democratic vote or military regime).
Are there serious political conflicts within each country? Who are the different groups involved? Are they communicating peacefully or violently? Is there a forum for communication?

How does the economy structure itself? Proportion of agriculture, industry, service etc.

What are the threats to the economy, are they prone to famine, earthquakes, volcanic activity, wars etc.

Principle exports? Who those exports go to (natural resources)? If at all possible export by country (8% diamonds to UK, 10% Diamonds to US, etc)

Identify level of world debt. Who is that debt owed too (which countries,International banks etc)?

Politically is this country part of the UN? Which other organisations do they participate in.

Could any form of recycling be used to assist these countries?

Please feel free to add or amend this list.
Also shoudl we takle the 52 countries or shorten the poverty list? Any thoughts?

Lov n hugs

Lis

If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish motives;
Be kind anyway.
What you spend years building, someone could destroy overnight;
Build anyway.
If you find serenity and happiness, others may be jealous;
Be happy anyway.
The good you do today, people will often forget tomorrow;
Do good anyway.
Give the world the best you have, and it may never be enough;
Give the world the best you have anyway.

This goes along with with putting ourselves in control, and reaching out to the people we love.

Joyce

Luv,
Rainbow~

Lis

Fabulous idea about your non-paranoid conspiracy information....i will be very interested in your findings....thank you!

And Tinkerbell and Proxymoon -- excellent project! i am so inspired by your commitment, very nice work.

love, snowpea

Joy, perhaps you should say that to one of the Virgos????

Lov n hugs

Lis

He was found guilty only of involuntary manslaughter. This is probably the least he could have been charged with. This charge should bring only 3-5 years in prison.

IMO,mistakes can happen..and this man has probably learned a great deal from it. My daughter and I are sitting here absolutely elated that the jurers had possibly some compassion and understanding of human nature.

On another note, the father to the man he "killed" has forgiven him. THIS is the start needed to changing this world..
compassion and foregiveness...yaaaay!!

Yes, I know I've said it before, and I'm going to say it again...*sigh*...

I just posted on Terri's thread entitled I'M LOSING MY OPTIMISM......it seems it would be appropriate right here, but at this time, I don't have the energy to post the whole thing here (I've ever learned how to cut and paste...if that even applies here)...

Anyway, for those, who would be interested in my input regarding world peace...please go over there, and read my post....thank you...

With Love,
Rainbow~

....and by no means, do I mean for anyone to give up on the great ideas they have, here.....

Let's do move upward and onward....

Love,
Rainbow~

Looks like we got sidetracked on this one for a while!

Love,
Greg