Joyce, hopefully you are still around. I thought this better on this forum than over at Star Chat.

I doubt the important issues right now are whether the US government were involoved in 9/11., and I wont waste my time on debating that,as theres just SO many other things going on simultaneously to 9/11. Yes,over 3000 people may have lost their lives,and sadly so. But so many more will also over the course of the next couple of decades, which will make sept 11 seem mild in comparison. That was ONLY a wake-up call. I dont care if the governments were involved,as they are already involved in so much crap right now,MORE than we will ever truly know, that its fruitless to argue the point. ALL governments, organizations,etc have a dark side,and its nearly always at the TOP, the higher echelon. Most people start out for the right reasons,to help society, etc..but once they have a taste of that false idol,the Almighty Buck, the power, and the personal lusts that can come with both,things change..humans change. The real "evil" comes out.I have seen it even with the higher echelon of the labour union I belong to,and I am a strong member for the right reasons,not the wrong ones.

I know you are in pain because of your son being involved with the (military?), and it hurts to think the people who are in charge of his well being could do anything other than be honest/truthful and caring. But that isnt the REAL world. Governments have extremely dark entities in control. I associate with people in another forum,in which many of them are veterans of the military. I can assure you they have opinions based on what they've seen and been through,which many here wouldnt like. One of the worst things about it all,is they CANT voice a lot,due to this now being a time of war..rules change in war..the government can do whatever they want..whatever they deem as "fit" to handle situations as they arise..INCLUDING the possibility of incarcinating veterans for life if they speak out...and the possibility of putting them to death(although that hasnt happened)
Thats really ok if you dont want to believe what you are hearing..it can certainly be a waste of energy that could be used elsewhere. But one site I really think you should check into is www.davidicke.com
When I first started delving into the "truth" of how things really are..it was almost impossible,as an aries,to believe things that couldnt be more scientifically explained,etc. But once I started to really "see", with a 3rd eye...certain things I learned actually ended up being worse than I first encountered.

The way to work through it,is to know the difference,and to NOT be like some of "them"..to still love others,but yet know when to turn away from certain energies.

You came to this site for a reason..and it wasnt just astrology. Whether you decide to stay or go(and I hope you stay), please carry on studying and investigating all things. Please listen,with an open mind, and HEART, to what your leader,and the leaders of other countries are saying in their speeches. After a while,it starts to come together.
Hopefully we can ,in a way just get past this 9/11 issue..because if it wasnt that,it would have been something else.

Love and Peace to you Joyce

Joyce, Aries is right, the issue is not whether this government (or any part of it) had foreknowledge or complicity in the 9/11 bombings. We may never know the answer to that, and as emotionally charged as it is, it's not the big issue. The big issue is that we know we are not getting the straight scoop on what happened, and we know that the "war on terrorism" it has engendered is being used to crank the world closer to a global military conflict situation than its been since World War II, and we owe it to ourselves and our children, and our next-door neighbors and the families on the other side of the world, to find out why and what's really happening, and to have some voice in it rather than simply rallying to the drumbeat.

And Maria is right on the Ego thread that your point of view on these issues is VERY important in keeping a grounded discussion.

And you are right that it seems a bit like '69 around here, but that's not nostalgia or old diehards, that's what the world is calling forth at this time, and you won't get away from it by looking elsewhere ... maybe for a while, but there is a groundswell of mass-movement dialog between the establishment powers and the people that is just now starting to rumble, but will grow to a loud roar before you know it ... a roar that will make the sixties seem like a warmup exercise. It's about the same things now that it was then: military/corporate/financial power versus freedom, democracy, peace and love.

And yes, this is an astrology site, but it's more than that: this is Linda Goodman's site, and Linda was the Mother of the New Age! Remember? This is what Linda was all about, was using astrology and metaphysical wisdom to raise our consciousness socially as well as in a personal "self-help" way, empowering people to ask tough questions of corporate and government leaders, and of taking back control of our lives and spirits, of changing our consciousness to usher in a New Age of peace and love rather than war and profit. Linda was no armchair astrologer, Linda was a revolutionary of the spirit!

And I've already had my own say about whether you should stay, but of course only you can decide what you need in your consciousness at this time, and of course I'll respect whatever you decide. But I hope with all my heart that you'll stay ... and call it like you see it in all our discussions. We all need that.

Love,
Greg

A2,

I personally will never let these thin candy coated m&m mars coke breathed TV video earphone telephone banana cream brain over sexed marshmallow IC monkeys talk me out of believing in Jesus?

HaHaHa - I would say that this guy is the one to investigate. He probably laughs out loud every time he sells a book or gets a check in the mail for more tapes and shows.
Everyone and their brother are into a scam operation now days because of two things that have developed in America (and the rest of the world is flowing.)

1. Everyone wants to be paid the same and more than their effort is worth.
2. Our link and paths between child and adult in our schools, activities, and parenting methods are so lacking and directed to the goal of material success out of fear of not having that many are lost as to what makes a meaningful life.

Creativity gone mad. It's like all the creativity of the 70 and 80 going into tax shelters rather than fair laws. Like all the creativity of advanced people being used by the government to make weapons and rockets and bombers in the 60 and 70 rather than letting them work in the private sector. This is why the 90's were successful. The tax laws changed in 87 and slowly more people had to work outside the government and pay taxes. Now the economical bubble has burst and the government is taking in the workers.
Rising taxes, starting wars, all in the dramatic reaction of a some very upset men that have been listening to the governments talk out of the side of their months while whacking generation after generation of poor and suppressed people is like blowing up your house because the paint is peeling and you can't afford to paint it right now.

What happened to all that prophecy talk?

Oh yea of little (make that none) faith.

The governments of the world, and our way of living will always change.
There will be wars and many will die. The only thing that keeps the freedom in some form of free government is the law, but even more important is the highly educated and involved population with a concentration of a core set of values and goals and customs.
As soon as any these get too far out of alignment the degeneration will come from within.
That would be your cancer working.

Why are so many fearful? It's easy, their brains are telling them that the math doesn't add up to happily ever after and change will come.
Over population, unrealistic expectations, a resource heavy set of structures that can't be replaced at a fraction of what it cost to build them. The walls are falling and we can only adjust our have's with our have not's, but to allow a war of the world to start because we won't have gas or beer or a car to drive is really petty, and to start to con and cheat others thinking you will survive a little longer is the insanity that fear causes when faith leaves your building is surely death to a free people.
Maybe we should all become Private Investigators and the number one rule is, "The most likely motive is probably the real motive." The guy wants fame and fortune.

Love and Swapland,
Darwin

That was soul stirring, Proz. Hey, if you're looking for work, I've heard about a crack team of black beret existentialists forming now! Chance of a lifetime to pull the carpet out from under all hopes and dreams and reveal the world for the gaping abyss of meaninglessness it is!

All kidding aside, Proxy, do you see a positive way forward for humanity? And if so, what would it be? Seriously.

Love,
Greg

Hey there Dar ..as usual, I dont understand about 50 percent of your post..(must be that sun of yours squaring my merc ) but I still love ya!

Are you needing some prophecy talk today? I havent given up on it Dar,probably 70 percent of my time is spent on it. You know the forum I mentioned in above post about the military vets..that is a prophecy group. One would have to wonder,why a group such as that would be comprised strongly of ex-military people,dont ya think?

I know 2 days ago, Portland seen a pretty horrible mass murder committed by a father. About 200 miles north of me,a father killed his 6 kids by torching the house(after a "spat" with the wife..a seeminly "nice" christian man,active in that very small community.) And in the area where Terri lives,a father returned one child home to the mother,but had stabbed the younger one to death,still pretty much a baby.

Our friend Jesus had something to say about this. Prophecy is always "truest" after the event,or while its happening.

From Mark 13:12..."brother will betray brother to death,and a father his child, and children will rise up against there parents,and have them put to death".

.."because lawlessness is increased,most peoples love will grow cold"..Matthew 24:12
That poor man Jesus..he even knew 2 of his "own" would betray him

Prophecy is like a puzzle, interlocking pieces all coming together,with not much more left in the giant prophecy puzzle of this era. The pieces left to fit,are the harshest of all.

Hi Greg,

YES! I am so bored!

Well, I have thoht of that question often.
It depends on what you believe and your motive I would say.

I tried to write two times on this and got stuck. My brain power is not at it's peek. But today I was surfing the net and found this link about Pluto - Neptune. So Added my two half thohts here with the link.
I will say one thing. It's not easy to see a continuious growth of peace and prosperity without divine intervention.
And it has been said many times that WWI never really ended, WWII never really got started.
http://www.mooncatsastrology.com/nep-pluto-septile-article.htm

Half thoht one.

But lets assume that mankind rule will be continuous for the next 10,000 years.

I look around and I say what is not changing and what that is not changing has been around for a while.

In reverse order, Europe is going down the toilet but I don't know if it a cycle because of the instability of the Eastern Europe and the corruption in Russia. It could be worst than a cycle.
England is weakening and a major attack on them will leave them very vulnerable to becoming extinct. India is so fragmented but sections are beginning to be very unstable and so is Pakistan. I talked with a coworker from India in 98 about Cashmere and their attitude is about the same as Israel and Palestine about the shared land of the 67 war and other issues too. Currently these two countries, India and Pakistan seem to be the most immature modern countries and they are both Ego based ideologies that I think could start a nuclear war. I have met many Engineers and Programmers from India and I must say they are very Ego driven and ambitious beyond real expectations. It seems to come from the parental drive to get ahead at all costs. This one guy I talked with was actually rejected emotionally by his mother because he did not have a PHD yet and everyone else in the family did. He had two BS degrees and was working on his masters when it came time for him to go home and marry his arranged bride. At that time the shame became so instilled in him that when he got back he turned into a very bitter ambitious person and totally lost his position. In less than two years he had turned all his coworkers against him and left the company. South America will survive any war because of the ease of living and the lack of interest by the rest of the world. That leaves China. China, again getting fist hand info from a coworker, is really split into the old and the new. The new is very harsh. For example that huge valley that is just now being damned up dislocated by force millions of poor farmers and families by gunpoint. I think China could be the concurring power of the world, as it will have many allies. So as this scenario takes shape we have China the mighty warrior representing oriental ethnic origins. South America (including Mexico, America, and what's left of Western Europe, like Spin, France, North Western Africa and finally Africa. Africa is the most unchanged.

Now I have left out the Islamic nations because any war would topple their rulers and the peoples there would be absorbed by the four winds of the earth, because there isn't much to do on a desert except survive.

Now a bit more time and we have the Great White Organized Ore, the Brown Brainless Slaves and the Black Silent Curtain. I would say the world would be like the 1300's.

Half Thoht Two.

To be a little bit real about it, NO.
But humanity is too big of a noun. When I think lives, and families, and a guy sitting under his own fig tree. Yeah, no problem. That is if your expectations are not too high. What's that phrase about the poor not caring what government is in control?

Like I was saying to my sis-in-law's b/f tonight, It's what you're used to and the cycle of limits. When some limits are reached there is dramatic change. For example at 451 degrees F, paper burst into flames. But when the Moon pulls the ocean up in the middle and lets go, then ocean flows into the beaches and sets around a while and slowly flows out. So the less you expect and or have the more the change in humanity seems like the ocean tides but if you are a spoiled Hollywood rock star basketball player. Poof. Life is over with a car crash or a drug bust. And I would think the suffering is greater for the latter but the compassion from the world much less. So if India and Pakistan blow ech other up America will not be changed and if America falls India will be India. Looking at humanity is like looking at a complex set of sign waves on an oscilloscope. Lots of peaks and valleys, sometimes higher or lower, sometimes more flat.
But any one life or group could be wiped out in a flash.
Since there is only 1 American taxpayer for every 54 people on the planet and we have 24 times as much. I suppose we fret more than others. But I know a farm family in China that makes their own egg noodles everyday by hand, cooks them in a wok of water, adds some veggies and that's breakfast and lunch. For dinner they have rice and catch of the day. Oh, and they cook outside, eat outside, work outside but they do sleep inside. I know I would die in a month with if I had to live like that.
So the higher the standard the more fretting and defending.

Love and Don't touch my stuff,
Darwin

A2,

I think you are a bit

I wrote this with my Merc that is sextile your Merc. But we both know it's you Aqua Moon's rent-a-ears and your Aqua Mars skip jump reading comprehension.
Just because you're Canadian doesn't mean you can pull that Scottish line.

Portland has had some hum dingers of bad news lately.
Two families dead, two girls missing (on America's Most wanted last night.) from the same place. Many attempted adductions. Two shooting in the City center in broad daylight and several other things. But over in Pakistani there is about 600 a day getting killed in riots. If that happen here it would be media heaven.

So what the verse for the idea of "The news anchor person and the movie star will have more influence than the church preacher or the city mayor?" I don't remember.
Our mayor is a dweeb.

Darwin