hi Crazy..thats sort of how I personally see it too.
But am still investigating the issue
Serpent within, and without.
As above, so below.

Maria, please do post about the Creation Myths..its an important and interesting topic!Ive also studied a few..do you see the "common threads" in them?

Hi Maria.. ....Lady, I love you too, and I truly hope you're not upset...but in your last post...you seemed a little "rattled!"....and you know what? I've been thinking about it, and have come to the conclusion that it wasn't really fair of me to ask that goofy snake question, anyway.....I'm sorry that I did ...cuz lord knows, there must be a million different answers....and I'm not even sure what prompted me to ask...except maybe cuz a snake is a reptile...*sigh*......but don't feel you have to answer that question...you could ask it of me, and I'm not sure what I'd tell you.......but *sigh*, for you to start feeling excrutiatingly sad .....and be mind blowingly scared... tells me that somebody, or some of us, disappointed you in some way....I'm sorry....so please forget about Eve and the snake...(maybe he was a phallic symbol )

Anyway, I would erase that question if I could, but it's already out there...so I'll just say it's not really necessary for you to do any in depth pondering about an answer...at least it's not necessary as far as I'm concerned...*sigh*...it was just a silly, impulsive thing for me to do...(my progressed Sun is in Aries)....Okay?

Luv,
Rainbow~

HI Aries me too,

Rainbow I know it pains you, but it helped me to answer my question on that same thing.
Somehow I thought Rainbow, that you would take my comment the wrong way.. I still think it was very relevant

Bye from Daze

Hi Daze, Nice to see you. Thanks for the PM. I'm being very slow today. Rainbow was trying to ease my sadness, not criticizing you, hon.

Thanks for the encouragement, Rainbow and Aries and Greg. It's OK, Rainbow. Thanks for saying that, though. I feel your empathy. And Aries, thanks for repackaging it as just an interesting topic.

Maybe I'm just feeling like Greg was feeling the other day...or like Terri was feeling back when she said she was losing her optimism. I have Pluto in a transiting trine with my first house Uranus. I'm supposed to be tossing old thoughts aide, without sadness, and zooming ahead to new ideas.

But I find myself digging in my heels and saying, "Not without a declaration first that, 'We find these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights.' " That or a similar sentiment from another sphere -- without making an exception for "the enemy." But I guess I came at it badly, approaching it not from the straight-ahead approach but in opposition to a theory some people seem to be interested in.

I do get it about salamander eyes and forked tongues. But I disagree strongly that evil (call it what you will) is genetically part of any bloodline in our world. I don't see how that could be theologically, morally or scientifically sound.

But I've probably said that about 99 ways, and nobody else seems to want to be part of the "We" of the self-evident truths, so I guess it's time to give that one time. After all, we've got time. We aren't marching off in crusade tomorrow.

Sorry, there'll be nothing eye-popping in my creation musings, heh. But it might be a bit interesting to some. Rainbow, I spent several hours last night, doing the immersing and pondering, and then when I came here earlier today I just couldn't find either the oomph or the time to start culling out the highlights and writing them up. I'm still feeling really lackadaisical now, but not quite as sad. Maybe the idea of, underneath it all, people being people will ultimately prevail, even in this tough crowd.

At some point, probably tonight, I'll write something mediocre here for you all.

Maria

Very strange, Maria ... I'm experiencing that I keep agreeing with you, and you keep coming back saying "nobody agrees with me."

It almost feels like "I agree that no one is genetically evil" isn't enough unless it's accompanied by "and I condemn David Icke!" That may be way off base, but I don't get it otherwise. I know you know that's where I'm coming from, because I must have said a hundred times on different threads "don't bash this or that country/race/religion," "we are all human beings who want to be happy and avoid suffering," "even the corrupt dominators are just victims of the illusion of separation," and so on and so on. And surely I've defended the Declaration of Independence and Constitution vocally enough that it should be self evident that I hold those truths to be self-evident! So ... ? ... the only thing I can come up with is that you must have gotten a strong enough sense of racism from what you read on David's website that not condemning him overrides anything else I might say about this. Am I off base here?

If so, it's an unfortunate sticking point, because I'm not any kind of big defender of David Icke at all, I've just read a few of his books and found them interesting and well-researched for the most part. But I do not see that racist mindset that you see. To the contrary, I think he's very sensitive to the issue and goes out of his way to clarify that he's NOT condemning anyone because of bloodline.

quote:

---

I would emphasise also before I end here that I am exposing certain reptilian GROUPS behind the Illuminati, not the reptilian genetic stream in general. ... Indeed, every one of us has a body with much reptilian genetics, including part of the brain called the R-complex, the reptilian brain.

---

The whole reptilian theory is very complex, and there are many versions of it, but the general outline as I understand it is that human beings - all human beings - are the result of genetic manipulation by an alien species who visited here long ago, intending to make us "slaves." Now according to the story, the leaders of this conspiracy set up "kings" who have sought to pass down power through the ages, and one of the elements of their "right to rule" is a "pure bloodline" from the original reptilian "creators." But that's THEIR belief. And we DO know that in point of fact throughout human history, a strong belief in "royal bloodlines" IS the main rationale that the ruling class have used to justify their "divine right to rule. We also know the Nazis strongly believed that they were "divinely ordained" as a race to rule, etcetera, etcetera. This genetic destiny idea has played a BIG role in the power struggles of mankind through the ages, and it doesn't really make sense to fail to examine the idea because we don't like it. Of COURSE we don't like it, it's inimical to everything we value about freedom, humanism, and spirituality. But it DOES exist, and has been a powerful force in the world. That's what this idea is about: if some people believe that they are the inheritors of the "ownership" of humanity by virtue of their "pure descent" from reptilian beings, why would I NOT want to know that?

Anyway, if the whole thought form is too bizarre to interest you, or you don't like David Icke's style and manner of presentation, that's cool ... I don't really see that as a central point of discussion, and I haven't seen anybody "pushing" that point of view anyway. But it's not about finding a new racial label for "the enemy," and it's certainly not about going on a reptile witch-hunt.

I can only speak for myself, but I definitely am part of the "We" of the self-evident truths!

Love,
Greg

*sigh*

OK, Greg, you're coming through clearer now. See, I thought you were taking his ideas and instead of following them to their logical conclusions you were pulling them through a rationalizing and reshaping process to make them more palatable, and thereby fraudulently stripping the ideas of their moral offensiveness. Now that IS a nasty thing to think about one of my favorite people -- you. But I was cutting you a ton of slack too, because I definitely did not think you were working an intentional fraud for any sort of malevolent reasons. I just thought you were being entirely too generous to Icke, because of the very generous nature of your heart. And I thought you were choosing open-mindedness as an absolute value. As in, "Who cares if the ideas we consider are offensive to basic moral understandings? We must open our minds to their lessons anyway."

OK, but now you're saying (maybe re-iterating) that I don't understand the complexity of the reptile theory and that Icke is not condemning anyone by bloodline. But the quote you offer, re: reptilian groups behind the illuminati -- just makes my ears prick up and my teeth set on edge all over again. Do I want you to condemn David Icke? I guess I want you to continue including the caveats every time you reference those ideas. Hey, you asked. I guess I want David Icke to sit down and really honestly face the moral implications of a hybrid-critter theory (some more hybrid than others -- you can't escape that implication, logically) and ask himself whether being able to bill himself as the most controversial speaker of our time is too important to him.

I don't know which of today's power-hungry, money-hungry masters of war do think they have a divine right (or a Yale-given right) or a hereditary right to rule. I certainly will allow as how some probably do hold that thought somewhere in their psyches. But THEY aren't saying that idea came there from their Master Race ancestors. You're telling me that Icke and others believe that idea came to those people from their Master Race ancestors. So it's Icke and his cohorts postulating the actual, historical existence of a Master Race. Yeah, heck, I guess I'm back to where I don't understand how you don't hear the alarm bells I'm hearing.

Love and angst,
Maria

Hi again Maria...I'm going to toss something else out at you....I realize you're agitated, and I'm not doing this to keep that going, but I'd just kinda like your opinion about something else, since you feel so strongly about the reptilian thing.....*sigh*....

A lot of Native Americans believe that at certain times...some of them are able to turn into animals....shape shifting, I think it's called...they truly believe this....I know my dad did...he used to tell us stories about it...does that idea offend you? I'm not meaning to offend you...I'd just like your opinion...thanks for considering it...

Luv,
Rainbow~

Okay, we may be getting somewhere here.

To make the moral implications clearer, let's look at the Nazi experience rather than the reptile idea, because that's something the world has lived through, and regardless of moral implications we can all agree on certain facts, like for example, that there IS a Jewish (semitic) bloodline in the world, and there IS an Aryan bloodline (although it's certainly arguable about how genetically "pure" an expression of any racial/genetic line any contemporary people may be.) It would certainly be a mistake to stigmatize discussion of the role racial beliefs had in the making and unfolding of the Nazi agenda, because without that information, the holocaust is incomprehensible. What we want to avoid is the implication that any beliefs about racial superiority are TRUE, and more important, to repudiate the idea that whatever racial differences do exist (and certainly there are some, otherwise races would be indistinguishable) imply greater or lesser "rights" or basic human standing. THAT idea, and nowhere else, is where the evil of racism resides. So let's stipulate at the beginning that regardless of WHAT the "facts" might be about reptile aliens, that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal." And let's broaden the "all men" part to include not only women and children but also reptile aliens and silicon-based aliens and any other intelligent life-forms the Universe may contain. Let's re-phrase it to say "all sentient beings are created equal, and are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights that are the same for all." Okay?

Okay. Now, your point - "I certainly will allow as how some probably do hold that thought [of the divine right to rule] somewhere in their psyches. But THEY aren't saying that idea came there from their Master Race ancestors. So it's Icke and his cohorts postulating the actual, historical existence of a Master Race."

Well first of all, some of them ARE saying that (although not widely or publicly). Cathy O'Brien, the former CIA mind-control slave, details in her book a number of rituals and other experiences she was subjected to in which certain very prominent figures in the power structure explicitly told her that they were descendants of an alien master race, and even demonstrated to her their "shape-shifting" from human to lizard-like form and back again!

Now Cathy's take on this is very different from David Icke's: she believes (now that she has been de-programmed) that these ideas are used to instill fear as part of the mind-control technology - that the shape-shifting and lizard alien stories are deliberately fearful stories (enhanced by stage-magic tricks) designed to make their subjects more compliant. She also states the same thing about Satanic rituals to which she and other mind-control victims were subjected (including gruesome blood sacrifice and terribly disturbing sexual rituals) ... that these thought-forms and rituals are used for their shock and intimidation value, and that the controllers are neither reptile aliens nor Satanists, but that they use these ideas to confuse and intimidate those they would control. This idea actually makes a lot of practical sense to me, knowing how trauma-based mind control works, but again I have no real first hand knowledge of the truth.

We know that the whole history of humans seeking domination over one another is the history of the belief in the superiority of some over others ... not just in the obvious cases like Nazism, but in ALL cases. What else IS the assumption of dominant power other than the assertion that the rulers are "better" than the ruled and have the RIGHT to rule and dominate? That's what "royalty" is all about through the entire history of the world. That's what the entire culture of conquest and domination has ALWAYS been based on. When Columbus and his crew raped and enslaved the natives upon landing in the New World, it was because he was a member of the "superior" white European race/culture and the natives were less-than-human "savages," right? Same thing with the Spansich Conquistadors in South America and the Dutch and English slave traders in Africa. Same thing with the westward expansion of the United States - it was a matter of killing or repressing the "savages" to make way for noble civilization, right? Conquest - all conquest - is based on the assumption of the racial, class, or cultural superiority of the conquerors, ALWAYS.

Does it really matter what the rationale for the superiority is? Whether it's because God singled out their ancestors to rule (as He supposedly did with the Merovingian Kings and the Hapsburgs) or because their race is "genetically superior" or because their cultural accomplishments are "proof" that they are superior to the unwashed primitives they conquer, or because their nation has a "manifest destiny" that is aligned with Divine will, or whatever ... it's ALL about the superiority of "us" over "them," which gives "us" the right to treat "them" as subhuman.

Do you really suppose it's any different today? That there is a cohesive generation-spanning conspiracy to control the world, spread by various secret and occult organizations along with various political and economic organizations and "good old boys" networks in todays world, is so well documented that (in my mind, at least) it is FACT. I am interested in the ideology behind that conspiracy, and the reptilian hypothesis is one possible way of understanding it. Certainly it is true that these people think that the "illuminated," "enlightened" ones have the right to rule, and they DO say that openly. Laws in the proposed World Government currently being promoted under the mantle of the U.N. -- and in the current European COmmunity today, its intended precursor -- are NOT passed by democratic vote, but by administrative decision of "enlightened" public servants, those who are "best able to choose wisely on behalf of all humanity." Come on, who's kidding who?!

To me, even if the reptilian hypothesis were 100% factually accurate, and the ruling class ARE direct descendants of ancient alien slave-masters, it still would not give them the right to rule, nor anyone else the right to single out reptile descendants for persecution. WE ARE ALL CREATED EQUAL. That is what this struggle is all about, and that is the needed shift in consciousness that will allow us to live in peace and harmony rather than as dominators and dominated.

That doesn't mean that I don't want to know what's in the minds of these people, any more than I would have wanted to know about the thought-form of the "final solution to the Jewish problem" before it was publicly revealed or implemented. Would the desire to understand the master race ideas of the Nazis have raised alarm bells in you? There IS a "real" Aryan race behind these ideas - or at least a racial "root" - but being aware of it doesn't make me (or anyone that I know of) prone to persecute people of Aryan descent. It just makes me better able to RESIST the wrong-minded idea that those of Aryan descent are "better" than others and have the right to control or kill them. If it should happen to be true that there is a "real" reptilian race behind the New World Order conspiracy, it will not make me want to persecute those with supposedly purer alien blood, either. The "danger" of racist thought-forms is the assumption that members of the targeted race are inferior or that we have a "right" to treat them with less respect than ourselves ... NOT the recognition that races exist. Even lizard alien races.

DO they exist? I don't know, but I'd like to find out, and investigating that is certainly no expression of racism on my part. Or David Icke's. To you, the idea of reptile aliens seeking to control humanity is evidently so patently absurd that you can't conceive of anyone espousing such an idea except for ulterior motives, but that is simply not true for me. I read the researches of Sitchin LONG before I had ever heard of David Icke, and found this hypothesis interesting back then, and still do.

But whether it has any truth to it or not, my argument is not with lizard aliens -- my argument is with anyone of any race or belief who thinks it's okay to dominate and control others. If there are such creatures, doubtless there are those among them who oppose the ideas of domination supposedly set in motion so long ago by their kindred lizards (and in fact, that is a critical part part of this extended idea - that there were "rebel" aliens who set up secret schools to teach humanity the spiritual realities that the "slaver" aliens concealed from us to control us - and that the "sometimes light, sometimes dark" character of occult teachings through the ages is the result of exactly this power struggle.) Anyway, as I say the whole thought form is a big, complex subject, and it is truly a mistaken oversimplification to jump to the conclusion that "someone is talking about alien races at the root of the conspiracy, therefore that person is a dangerous racist who must be repudiated."

So. Any progress, or do you still feel I am rationalizing racism?

Love,
Greg

Rainbow,

Actually, I'm feeling much less agitated today. Thanks for putting up with me through my agitation. And, actually, when I first included shape-shifting in that first post of mine, I almost stopped and took it out, because my medicine man friend did that to one extent or another using one mechanism or another, but I'm quite uninitiated as to the "how."

Maria

P.S. He was physically an ordinary human being, absolutely no different from other humans who don't "shape-shift," and never claimed to be other. Just to clarify.

Maria....thanks for partly answering my inquiry, regarding shape shifting....I say "partially" because you still didn't tell me if you were offended that a "human" could be "animal" sometimes....

From what I gather, you accept the Native shape shifting concept..and if so...then you agree it's possible for "humans" to sometimes be animals...Okay...then why is it, one idea (reptiles) upsets you....and another one (Native shape shifting) is accepted without question???

Please understand here, I'm only trying to clarify something, which puzzles me....and it's without malice, or the desire to be difficult...it's only curiosity...*sigh*..Okay?

Thanks for considering this..

Luv,
Rainbow~

PS.....Maria, did you ever see the movie THUNDER HEART? I'm asking because some "shape shifting" took place in it...

Luv,
Rainbow~

Gregory....you make perfect sense to me (as always)...I especially liked the point you made, when you said:

"If it should happen to be true that there is a "real" reptilian race behind the New World Order conspiracy, it will not make me want to persecute those with supposedly purer alien blood, either. The "danger" of racist thought-forms is the assumption that members of the targeted race are inferior or that we have a "right" to treat them with less respect than ourselves ... NOT the recognition that races exist. Even lizard alien races."

Luv,
Rainbow~

Hahahahahahaha, you know, I must be asking for it big time. Greg's last post was about to make me post in return, *WARNING* *WARNING* WILL ROBINSON, ARGUMENT EXPANDING. Because in order to answer him honestly, I'll have to go into several other subject areas. Not to mention the other subjects that have popped up on this thread, first of all the creation mythology discussion, which could be really fun if lots of people bring lots of different stuff to it, and which probably is deserving of its own thread. Then there's the question of distinguishing the genres of writing: myth, history, analogy, allegory and others in the Bible and other sacred literature of other cultures. And now, shape-shifting. Plenty to keep us busy.

Rainbow, I would love it if YOU would do some digging and pondering and presenting on shape-shifting. I really truly would. My understanding of native American experience of shape-shifting is that, while some may have more "talent"-type potential for it, still it is learned, it involves study and developing affinity with certain animals and it involves a transcendant mental "projection," I'm going to call it. AND all of what I just said could be wrong. It's deductions from brushing up against it, nothing more.

The short answer for why that concept is not morally offensive to me is that it does not involve believing that there is a group of human-like earthlings, descending just as we all are from the times of pre-history, that is MADE of a different stuff than the rest of us are and so, in its very NATURE, is not human, but alien and other.

Our imaginations provide us with the possibility of silicon-based life forms and what-not that "could" be "theoretically" possible. And Greg, of course, already extended to them an invitation to be part of the human community. But I say, look, we've already had thousands of years of trying to reach a peaceful HUMAN community, and that is still the job at hand, and I strongly reiterate that it does not help in those efforts to hold the belief that some people are of a different essence and not essentially human.

Greg -- I'll be back with my branching out. We will probably have to agree to disagree, but in the meantime, Socrates, you certainly are prompting me to clarify and express my thoughts about the beneficial use of the powers of the mind -- in terms of my choices of how best to apply it.

Now, the thing is, my babe wants to ride her little red trike and I'll soon have five overnight guests and much remains to be done. So I'll have to catch as catch can and drag the conversation out a while longer.

Love,
Maria

P.S. Rainbow, no I never saw Thunder Heart, but I'll watch for it now. Did you ever see The Milagro Beanfield War? Wonderful movie. Keep your eye on the pig.

Maria, no I did not see THE MALAGRO BEANFIELD WAR...but like you, I will watch for that too..

Now...about shape shifting..*sigh*...I know very little about it, except what I've heard...In the THUNDER HEART movie, it was used by a Native who was escaping the 'bad guys'....he turned into a deer...and kept running.....

From what I understand, within our own tribe (Ottawa Indians)...it was used in a "bad" way, similar to voo doo, or black magic...and called 'THE BEAR WALK' Once in a great while, my dad would talk about it, but my mom (non-native and blonde), kinda put the kabash on discussions of such nature, cuz she more or less looked upon it as "superstition".... but just in case is WAS true, she didn't want the children to know about "such things.".... *sigh*...so to please her, my dad didn't talk about it all that much...but I do remember him saying that only "certain" people were capable of doing it, and if you became their enemy, they could (I'm gonna use "curse", for lack of a better word) you in some way...anywhere from causing terribly bad luck, to severe illness to even death!.........Somehow, someway, the person with such powers, needed to turn into an animal first....usually a bear, I think...hence, the Bear Walk.....Often, when something not too pleasant "happened" to someone in the tribe, it was assumed they were "BEAR WALKED."....*sigh*....and that's about all I know about "shape shifting." *sigh*......

Luv,
Rainbow~

Take your time, Maria ... or feel free to just let it slide if it's more trouble than it's worth.

However, I will make two small comments on the core of your your message:

quote:

---

...we've already had thousands of years of trying to reach a peaceful HUMAN community, and that is still the job at hand, and I strongly reiterate that it does not help in those efforts to hold the belief that some people are of a different essence and not essentially human.

---

1. If we are intellectually honest, I don't think we get to choose our beliefs on the basis of whether they are "useful" to our overall agenda. I think we have to choose them on the basis of what we judge most likely to be TRUE. It might be more helpful to the cause of a peaceful human community if I believed that everyone was equally intelligent or equally kind, but ...
2. I don't believe that some people are of a different essence and not essentially human. In my understanding of this hypothesis, we are either ALL half-breed aliens or none of us are. If we are, then by now, lo these many millennia later, the reptile genes are all a part of our "humanity" for good or ill; and any belief by some that they are special by virtue of being of "purer" reptilian blood - or by others that they are "evil" for the same reason - is just as ridiculous as the belief (to this day) that certain royal dynasties are special by virtue of descending from the Biblical House of David! Now I can't guarantee that David Icke's view on this is identical to mine, but I can guarantee that it's possible to read and appreciate his writings without believing that some people are not essentially human ... because I do!

Love and dialectic,
Greg

hi everybody....

i'm feeling verrrryy yucky currently and not up to much of anything except reading here every once in awhile, and while i have a lot in my head, i have not enough strength to articulate and post.

just wanted to say that this entire thread is brilliant and i am learning so much from each of you. everyone seems to be at his/her best here, and i am expanding in many ways just absorbing it all.

thanks to all the beautiful knowflakes of fine and flowing heart.....

love from a wilted snowpea

hi snowpea..take care of yourself girl! You need rest (and try not to stress over anything!)

Maria,Im going to mention a biblical verse to you which suggests we may/could be more "hybrid" than we even know or realize. This is the verse that got Sitchin going on his studies. He understands early language,Hebrew,and cuniform script,and got started with the original works of the bible,being the Torah which was handed down to Moses..

From Genesis 6:4.."the Nephilim were on earth in those days,and also afterward,when the sons of god came into the daughters of men.
Then the lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth,and that every intent of thoughts of his heart was only evil continually"

This is a section of the bible,which is the basis for many a "creation story"...hey,theres a good topic!!

HI there Snowpea, hope you feel ok soon, there have been plenty of days I have just read and could not even though I wanted to, comment or say anything at all...?

Hi Aries, there are lots of comments on the "Creation". Just recently I asked someone what is "Gilgamesh" after I saw the title in a book catalogue, and they replied, "The Story of Creation", anyway Ive ordered the Book and have absolutely no idea what I am in for, or if it is from authentic sources...?? Have you any knowledge as to the word Gilgamesh, I feel so ignorant not knowing this title.

byee.V...

hi CD..yes,its from the Gilgamesh Epics..do you know how to do a search online?
( Im about to head out)

Yes,its a creation story.(the et/gods myths)From doing a quick scan of this posted url, I think it may be one of the more "truer" ones.(I didnt read it) http://eawc.evansville.edu/nepage.htm

You may want to search out info on Zecharia Sitchin..namely the book titled "The 12th Planet"

I have no "firm" beliefs in a lot of this right now..still investigating..

ok..you could also check this site. This guy has done a lot of work,I know him only slightly,so I know his work is based on actual study..and LOTS of it.
http://timedwards.topcities.com/dreamscape.htm

Hey, wow, I love you guys.

I mean I love, love, love you.

Snowpea, I'm about to drive down to Texas and give you chicken soup and strawberries and cream. None of my pregnancies were easy and some were miscarriages. It's a huge miracle you've given yourself over to, hon, and a huge strain on all your systems. Plus, the modern pregnancy books must be written about all those Amazon-sized American, beef-eating, cornfed women who tower over me when I go out, who can work and exercise up to the ninth month, when I've never actually gotten a baby to wait a decent nine months before being born. The books tell you about the earth-mother, good-breeding-stock type women (NOTE to any such ladies reading this: I am not making fun of you; I envy you!), but I myself have not managed to carry off an earth-mother pregnancy. Throw the "be a hero without breaking a sweat" books on the fire. They tell you not to treat yourself or let your doctors treat you as a "patient." Nonsense. You ARE in a delicate condition. The old wives were right. You are. You must be ever so gentle with yourself, and so should others. Or I will come get them.

If you do get to feeling stronger than an ox, so much the better for you. But in the meantime, don't expect it of yourself or let others get away with expecting it of you. My mama-hen side is really concerned about you, and of course you may end up turning a corner and having everything go smooth as butter. Surely, at least, you will get to feeling better, but when you feel crummy, get all the rest and quiet and peace, peace, peace you can. OK?

Maria

Aries, Thanks for the Biblical reference (from the part of Genesis that the scholars term mythology -- which doesn't necessarily mean untrue, but told in the larger than life, fanciful style of multi-layered symbols and such). I came across that when I was checking out Zecharia Sitchin's web site, after Greg mentioned Sitchin's work.

I haven't had a chance to visit the other links you posted here in the last few days.

But I want to say, I find Sitchin more real, more credible, more heart-y by far than Icke. I expect you'll read Icke's book with your good brain in gear, and take only what rings true. But I just wanted to say, my nose detects a huge difference between those two guys' sites. FWIW.

Maria

Greg,

I have to get this down quickly because I'm falling asleep. Please understand that I am well aware that you are a lovely, intelligent person who could read any amount of Nazi programming material and not become a Nazi, and the same thing with any other hate-filled philosophy. They won't get you. They won't get me. That's not the trouble. But really, my friend, your version of the reptile theory IS NOT the same as Icke's version. The following is verbatim from his site, from an article or letter that he signs, "Love, David." Love, my foot. The stuff in bold is the emphasis I added.

quote:

---

...These "gods" could not take over the planet openly because there are not enough of them, so they are doing it covertly by appearing human. Movies like They Live, The Arrival (the first, not the sequel), and the US television series, V, tell the story of what is REALLY going on. I urge you to think about watching these movies to get up to speed if you are new to all of this...

(NOTE: I skipped over some paragraphs here)

...And as a result of the waves The Biggest Secret has caused, and the new information, experiences, and accounts the book and this website have attracted from all over the world, there is a growing understanding that this apparently bizarre, crazy, story is actually true. That the world may indeed be controlled by reptilian bloodlines that hide behind apparently human form and it is this understanding which pulls together all the apparently unconnected information on this site into a very much connected whole....

Follow the Illuminati-reptilian bloodlines from the ancient world to now and they have ALWAYS taken part in human sacrifice ceremonies and blood-drinking. The sacrifices to "the gods" in the ancient accounts were literally sacrifices to the reptilians and their hybrid bloodines. The story of the blood-drinking Dracula is symbolic of these reptilian "vampires". One of the locations of this reptilian group would appear to be the star-system known as Draco and "draconian" certainly sums up the Illuminati.

To hold their human form, these entities need to drink human (mammalian) blood and access the energy it contains to maintain their DNA codes in their "human" expression. If they don't, they manifest their reptilian codes and we would all see what they really look like. "Oh, my God, Mr. President, do you always eat your breakfast from across the room?".

From what I understand from former "insiders", the blood (energy) of babies and small children is the most effective for this, as are blond-haired, blue-eyed people. Hence these are the ones overwhelmingly used in sacrifice, as are red- haired people also, it appears.

This is why people like George Bush, Henry Kissinger, and a stream of the other Illuminati "big names" are exposed in my books and on this site as reptilian shape-shifters who take part in human sacrifice and blood drinking. The two go together.

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The creatures he describes ARE ESSENTIALLY DIFFERENT from me and mine. I have never once had to drink the blood of an infant of whatever hair color in order to maintain my human shape. What's more, if ever I meet a baby-blood-sucking, reptilian creature intent on satisfying its jones, I will plunge my vorpal blade into its small, cold heart at the earliest possible opportunity.

Plus, Greg, I KNOW you recognize this. It's the same "blood libel" used to persecute and lynch Jews in medieval times. It's a thought-form dripping in blood and reeking of scandal and shame. And it is being used against Jews again, and Icke's stuff feeds into that. Here is from Newsweek, from an article about whether Israel can survive:

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How is it that this little country of 6 million people has come to demand so much of the world’s attention? How does it inspire so much love among some people, so much hate among others? Some look for answers in the holy Scriptures—in the Torah, the Bible, the Qur’an. Others try to discover the dynamic in the texts of the British Empire’s secret accords, in the history of the Holocaust and its aftermath, in the demagoguery of Arab-nationalist politics. But there are also other narratives, evil-minded mythologies that feed hatred and create foundations of prejudice so persistent and pervasive that they are almost impossible to eradicate. “And we are hearing again all of this filth,” says Deputy Foreign Minister Michael Melchior, “all of this poison which led to so many disasters of the past.”

A SPECTER OF A NEW ANTI-SEMITISM

A columnist in the Saudi daily Al-Riyadh took it on herself this month to explain the rituals of Purim and Passover. The first holiday (which took place in February) commemorates the story of Esther’s saving the Jews of Persia from extermination. It’s a rollicking, hard-drinking, happy time for most celebrants. Some call it the Jewish Mardi Gras. Passover is more somber, as Jews commemorate the night that the Tenth Plague was sent by God to smite the firstborn children of Egypt but passed over the homes of Jews and allowed Moses to lead them to freedom. Each part of the ritual meal is full of symbolism. But that is not what the columnist, a medical doctor at King Faisal University Hospital, told her readers.

For the Purim pastries, she said, “the Jewish people must obtain human blood.” And for Passover, there are some special requirements: “the blood of Christian and Muslim children under the age of 10 must be used.” And so, in almost clinical detail, Dr. Umayma Ahmad al-Jalahma recounted a hideous libel that dates back to the Crusades. “A needle-studded barrel is used,” she told us. “The victim suffers dreadful torment—torment that affords the Jewish vampires great delight ... ” You get the idea.

The column appeared in the government-sanctioned newspaper shortly before Vice President Dick Cheney arrived in Saudi Arabia for talks. Since the Saudis are proposing a plan for peace with Israel, the screed was, to say the least, an embarrassment.

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Now, Ickes is traveling the world preaching his blood libel, and what is he feeding? I don't want to feed him.

Then there's this part, also from the same piece on Icke's site:

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I would emphasise also before I end here that I am exposing certain reptilian GROUPS behind the Illuminati, not the reptilian genetic stream in general. There are many of reptilian origin who are here to help humanity to free themselves from this mental and emotional bondage. Indeed, every one of us has a body with much reptilian genetics, including part of the brain called the R-complex, the reptilian brain. It is merely a matter of degree.

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You know this argument too, right? It goes, "Well, not all black people are niggers, but some of them are."

I offer many sincere apologies to anyone reading for having used the n word, but I feel the need to be plain spoken, perhaps in the extreme, because, yes, there is a real danger of rationalizing racism in dealing with this guy's ideas.

And as far as your saying, Greg, that the reptile theory isn't all that vital to Icke's message...that's not what he says. He says:

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I trust this brief summary will help you to see the relevance of all the articles and information you will find on this site. In the end all these apparently unconnected "conspiracies" are part of ONE conspiracy designed to introduce ONE agenda. The reptilian control of Planet Earth and its entire population.

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Now, I do understand and sympathize with the problem that you wrote about when you first broached the conspiracy topic -- that almost everyone doing the research has a hateful agenda, and you don't.

But just like you got the info from the real journalist, Greg Palast, which you just posted on another thread in this forum, "Free Trade NOT," so, I hope, you'll spot more of those sorts of credible sources who approach the problem without feeding into hateful philosophies that lead to tragic consequences.

I have a little more to say, but I think I better post before I lose this...

Maria