Hey again Greg,

OK, let me cobble this piece on and then I'll knock it off for a bit, although I never did get into those other areas I was going to expand into in answer to your previous post...

Icke says this about Sitchin:

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This is why I found it so astounding when I was told by Zecharia Sitchin, the best-known translator of the Sumerian tablets, that there was no evidence of a serpent race in the ancient world. Of course there is. He also strongly advised me in relation to the serpent race…"Don't go there". Why, when the evidence, ancient and modern, is so enormous?

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Now, Sitchin is the scholar who not only knows Cuniform but also has examined and written about the physical evidence that he believes points to extraterrestrial involvement in the development of hominids to humans. He knows the difference between the mythical part of the creation stories and what the physical evidence points to. Yet, Icke thinks his level of scholarship supercedes Sitchin's? Ay yi yi. Again, I haven't read deeply into either of these guy's stuff, but Sitchin feels a whole lot more authentic and credible.

FWIW

Love,
Maria

Ah, Maria !

What an interesting extended conversation this is! I am NOT arguing for the truth of David Icke's beliefs ... only that those beliefs are not hateful, and don't undermine the value of his research. Of course I can only speak for myself - as can we all - and in this case it appears that you are using my inherent goodwill to invalidate my judgment. You're saying that just because I don't see the evil undertones to David Icke's presentation doesn't mean they aren't there ... because I have such an inherently benevolent view of people that I will only see the good in them and discount any possible evil. That's a rather left-handed compliment, I suppose!

Yes, it appears that David does believe that there are those among us who are "more reptilian" than others, and that this accounts for their ability to hold together in a massive conspiracy for such a long historical time. Sitchin's beliefs are more along the lines of my own intuitive thoughts, that if there are aliens in our genetic history, their influence is spread throughout the gene pool by this point in time and it would be silly to argue for an identifiable "race" of alien descendant among humans today. That's just my gut feeling, and to be honest I haven't given it a WHOLE lot of thought, because even though intriguing it doesn't seem to make much practical difference in today's world.

The reason the racist argument doesn't work for me with regard to David Icke's reptile alien ideas is very simple: racism is a hideous perversion of rationality because it ties a visible, obvious characteristic of people (their race) to a set of negative generalizations about the supposed qualities of that race ... and the danger of that practice is that it lends itself too readily to abuse by people of ill will who are eager to use it to put down others. (For example, Jews are money-grubbers who will try to screw you over in financial dealings, you're a jew, therefore I can't trust you in a business deal. Or, Blacks have genetically low intelligence and a propensity for criminal actions, you're a Black person, therefore you're probably not very smart and I certainly won't turn my back on you - or allow my daughter to marry you!) In all cases, the danger rests on attributing negative qualities that are NOT visible to a racial membership that IS visible, and using the latter to argue for the presence of the former. That is insidious, and I'm at least as opposed to it as you.

That doesn't work for the reptile hypothesis, however, because someone's supposed "alien-ness" is NOT visible (or even discoverable as far as we know). There's no way you could walk down the street and say, "hey, that guy over there is a reptile alien, and we all know the aliens are evil slavemasters so that guy is probably evil, let's get him!" In fact, it's exactly the opposite way around: instead of purported but invisible negative qualities being attributed to people who are visibly members of a given race, in David's presentation purported (but invisible) membership in the race of reptile aliens is attributed to people whose actions are visibly evil. That's a very different thing. There's no way for this belief to be abused to persecute innocent people, because there's no way to judge a person a reptile alien except by visible participation in evil actions (i.e., those aimed at dominating and controlling human beings through a New World Order conspiracy.)

David's presentation consists of documenting very thoroughly and factually the participation of certain people in such a conspiracy. No part of that presentation is dependent on the presumption of membership in an alien race. David NEVER says "George Bush sold America down the river, and we know that because he's a lizard alien." Rather he says George Bush sold us down the river by his corrupt dealings with Enron, the World Bank, the global drug and weapons trade and other criminal actions, and here is the proof: dates, documents, actions, results. Very factual, specific and well-documented evidence of actual corrupt actions. One NEED NOT accept his hypothesis that GB is a reptilian in order to see the evidence and judge its merits. THAT'S why I say the hypothesis is not central to his arguments (although it is clearly an important thing in his mind.) One can completely reject the alien hypothesis without in any way diminishing the strength of his research into the global conspiracy, or the facts and figures he brings to bear to unmask the hidden agendas behind many of the world's most powerful individuals. That presentation depends solely on factual research and logical inference that can be judged on its own merits without any reference to the alien hypothesis.

David believes that hypothesis is important because it "explains" how and why people could successfully carry out such a massive and efficient plan, over such a generation-spanning historical time frame, with such awful and inhumane ends. As I say, most people into conspiracy research yearn to have a label to put on "them," whether it be Illuminati, Communists, or lizards. Personally I don't think it matters whether they are some identifiable entity like an alien race or a secret society stretching back to prehistory, or whether they are just smart sociopaths who naturally seek each other out and collaborate on a mutual dream of global dictatorship. It's interesting to speculate, but really irrelevant to the facts of what is being done to manipulate the world community into a totalitarian social structure. That's why I'm willing to listen and learn from all quarters of this research, whther it comes from religious fundamentalists, left-wing or right-wing political zealots, or New Age believers in the whole thing as a battle of extraterrestrials using humans as pawns. It is the facts that are important to me, not the conceptual frame of reference of the researchers.

Poetic justice demands that I end by passing on the same kind of left-handed compliment to you as you gave to me: you are such a staunch humanitarian and defender of minorities that you are rushing valiantly to the defense of maligned races that may not even exist! And in so doing, you may be cutting yourself off from valuable information just because you don't like the mindset of the messenger.

And with that said, we can certainly agree to disagree about David Icke, and get on with examining what is happening behind the scenes in our World Community, and what we as spiritual and loving people can do to help steer it in a different direction.

Love you,
Greg

The passing of time
Is ticking dimly upon the screen
I can't see the lines
I used to think I could read between
How can moments go so slowly
...Brian Eno

Greg,

Whoa, whoa, whoa, missed me by a mile. You know how you were having the strange feeling that you were agreeing with me and I wasn't recognizing it? Well, I'm having the strange feeling that you are agreeing with me and you aren't recognizing it. So you're writing as if I said something else, and disagreeing with what I didn't say.

This part here that you said about me?

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Poetic justice demands that I end by passing on the same kind of left-handed compliment to you as you gave to me: you are such a staunch humanitarian and defender of minorities that you are rushing valiantly to the defense of maligned races that may not even exist!

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Where do you get that? Not from my post. I said I'd run the buggers through, not defend them. And then, with the brand new, just published yesterday Newsweek article, I thought I traced a pretty clear connection of how an old idea, used against Jews centuries ago, is being re-injected into the public mind-set by people like Icke, who brags that the result of exposure of his web site is this:

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...And as a result of the waves The Biggest Secret has caused, and the new information, experiences, and accounts the book and this website have attracted from all over the world, there is a growing understanding that this apparently bizarre, crazy, story is actually true. That the world may indeed be controlled by reptilian bloodlines that hide behind apparently human form and it is this understanding which pulls together all the apparently unconnected information on this site into a very much connected whole....

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He's not bragging that more and more people now understand how Bush sold us down the river with Enron and the World Bank, et al. He's bragging about how his reptiles-who-drink-baby's-blood theory has caught on and is being revived in the human mind.

Then, it shouldn't be much of a surprise to discover that this ancient blood libel USED AGAINST A REAL RACE -- THE JEWS, having been revived and spread through sites of "love and light" like this, is now, once again, being splashed on newspaper pages in the "civilized" world and being USED AGAINST A REAL RACE -- THE JEWS.

The Enron and World Bank type stuff -- that's the hard stuff to understand. I don't know about you, but I, quite frankly, have a number of very dear friends whom I love who can't even begin to follow what's going on with all that. I have the barest understanding myself, but I'm trying. But I have some friends who would definitely say it's beyond them and they don't even want to think about it. However, a concept like a part of the population being alien vampires is easy enough to understand. I would bet that out of the whole ball of wax that Icke presents in his various formats, THAT's what mostly sticks, most clearly, with most people.

And then a few little things start to play on that, and then pretty soon that old evil thought form is going to, like a homing pigeon, seek it's old-line origins and it is going to add to the already growing-again feeling of anti-semitism in this world.

I know this concerns you Greg, and I wish you would acknowledge it. I know you're concerned to make sure that what you present isn't anti-semitic. Well, me damn too.

I'm raising a red flag here, and you think I'm just bullfighting.

Here's what you say you want to do:

quote:

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get on with examining what is happening behind the scenes in our World Community, and what we as spiritual and loving people can do to help steer it in a different direction.

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And I say, that is exactly what I'm doing, because one of the things that is happening behind the scenes in our world community is that the medieval blood libel thought-form is being pushed and promoted by the apparently rather effective David Icke, and, lo and behold, is being used again (regardless of Icke's intentions) against the Jewish people, as a whole. The columnist Newsweek points to who wrote that column saying Jews eat babies at Passover IS A DOCTOR!!! She is an educated woman. Old thought-forms die hard and they "home."

Intention of the sender of information IS important. But it's the RECEIVERS you have to pay attention to. Lots of people have learned that in very hard ways. If what's being received -- when you are promoting a communication, like Icke is -- is different and uglier and more dangerous than what you think you are trying to communicate -- you bear a heavier responsibility than you even thought, and if you're a good person (not you, Greg -- Icke) you really better think it out again. Maybe you've got a big old hole in your head or your theory, and you ought to look for it.

"What we as spiritual and loving people can do to help steer it (the world community) in a different direction," I submit, INCLUDES saying, "nope, we sure don't want to go the way of anti-semitism." That's what I'm saying. And I think you agree.

Maria

P.S. Please don't invalidate my heart and my deep knowings and my knowledge and experience in the world of publicly presented ideas by saying that I didn't draw a direct line that proves the doctor-columnist has directly encountered Icke's stuff. The spreading and acceptance of thoughts in wider consciousness is a complex but real phenomenon, and proving direct transmission who to who isn't the big deal part of it.

Can you feel this one instead of intellectualizing it, please?

Maria

Hi Maria,

I sure would if I could, and the last thing in the world I want to do is invalidate your feelings ... but the honest truth in both head and heart is that I can't see a connection between Icke's reptilian theories and any resurgence of anti-semitism. And you BET I'm concerned about Racism, especially that virulent kind, so I can promise you I would acknowledge it if I saw or felt it. I just don't, and that's the deep truth of my soul speaking.

That's not to say it isn't there, of course. My perceptions were formed by decades of studying this behind-the-scenes corruption idea, long before most other people had ever even heard an inkling of it, so when I discovered David Icke a couple of years ago, that is the part of him that I connected with and resonated to, and what formed my sense of what he is all about. And to tell the truth, one of the reasons I was happy to find him is that he wasn't anti-Semitic, as many in the conspiracy research field are (because of the major involvement of the Rotschilds), whose anti-semitism I had to suffer through to get to the solid facts behind their narrow-minded ideologies. But I suffered through them anyway, because I want to know the Truth, and to reject a claim that a certain banking house is involved in totalitarian scheming because they are Jewish is just as racist as the other way around. People are people, not the race or religion whose banner or skin they wear.

In any event, it is clear that you and I are coming from very different gut-level perceptions of what this character is all about, and it's unlikely that any amount of debate or analysis will bridge that gap, so I suggest we let it lie for a bit. In the meantime I will deeply ponder your perceptions and see if there is not something real there that I have missed because of my own history and already-formed assessment.

Please know, my dear friend, that I respect you enormously, and that I absolutely share your outrage against racism in all its forms -- which I consider to be among the most "evil" conceptions ever entertained by the mind of man. My father was a Jew, my wife the mother of my children was a Jew, my children are Jews, I have relatives who died in the holocaust .... of course I abhor anti-semitism. (I am genetically at least half Jewish, but not "legally" a Jew because it is through my father's line rather than my mothers.) If I saw anti-semitism or an excuse for it there, I would say so. I honestly don't, at this point.

So let me just step back for a bit, I don't want to butt heads with anyone I love and respect as much as you. Maybe we can come back to it later with different perspectives.

Love,
Greg

Watch for the ripples. Watch for the co-incidences. That one, in Newsweek, already popped up on my computer screen in the news section when I came on last night to write some of what I'd been wanting to write for a few days -- which was specifically about Icke's revival of the old blood libel in the "meet David" type articles. I didn't even get a chance to say "wait and see how this idea starts publicly manifesting itself." I came on to write it and there was already an example staring me in the face.

Wait and see. The guy gets no money from me.

Love you,
and I'm stunned,
Maria

hi Maria,this will just be a quick post,so forgive me if I missed anything addressed to me personally.

Icke is really only ONE in hundreds of thousands of people who have the knowledge about the "Illuminati". I first heard about all this from someone who hadnt even heard of Icke. He also hadnt heard of Sitchin,as due to his knowledge(30 year study) of comparative religions and early languages,including the cunieform,he worked things out himself.
I havent read any Icke books yet,I barely need to as most of the info has already been passed on to me. Because of personal knowledge,and involvement in the labour union movement, I can say he knows whats going on there,in relationship to the FTAA,and the groups that will eventually combine to be the New World Order(its actually already in place). Im using what he talks about,mainly in relationship to prophecy study,so I dont think the man an "idol", only a learned man.The only reason I suggested his site to begin with,is because he puts things altogether where others fear to go.

Icke has sell-out crowds,and his forums are actually cheap compared to others.Hes going to be 3 hours from me in a few days,and I wont be going..but I know theres been an extra "show" added.

You are in the same mode I was..and I TOTALLY understand your skepticism..especially being an ARIES!
And to that, I say "GO girl"!!. As you get more into seeing connections with all you are studying..you may get to a point you will need to lay down and take a breather for a couple of days and say GOD TAKE ME NOWWWW,as it will be far too overwhelming.It could come,when you hear a speech by someone..or something similar..but it will floor you. You will just say "WHAT THE...!!!"

Theres more to this world,than meets the eye.The good versus evil battle has been lost,but only for now.
"So much to learn,and such little time"
Onward Ho

Onward, ho! to you too.

I don't think it's lost, friend Aries, but I feel ya. I know what you mean.

I want to give the people going to the guy's show a sociological questionnaire -- one when they're going into the auditorium, one when they're coming out, and one six months later. Maybe Tinkerbell can do the statistical comparisons. A survey of attitudes...

I'll go quietly now.

Hugs,
Maria