This reptilian thing? I finally just caught up to what these reptile references have been about in threads like "Conspiracy Theory for the Non-Paranoid" and "Bill Cooper Lexi" and various threads where Aries has posted David Icke links -- or references to his ideas, like talking about political leaders with forked tongues.

I had simply assumed the earlier references either had to do directly with the reptilian-like brain stem in humans with it's fight-or-flight urges, or that the references were derived from that and were metaphorically referring to our non-spiritual, lower selves. And I assumed the references to a reptilian race seeking to enslave us were jokes, a la Godzilla and Reptar.

I know I am slow, but I honestly did not understand until now, when I finally clicked the link and went to the Icke site, and then remembered some things Aries said in other threads...I did not understand until now that anyone truly believed that the people wielding power in the world are shape-shifting descendants of reptile "gods," "space aliens," whatever.

I can hardly believe that I am in a position of feeling I need to take a position on this question, but as I'm hanging out here, and sometimes some of us comment on the ways in which others of us are hanging out here, I want to make it clear that while I like hanging out here, I do not, in any way, shape or form, subscribe to any sort of theory involving domination of the world by a race of hybrid reptile/humans.

If David Icke did not exist, the power brokers of the world would need to make him up. A blow-dried "TV presenter" sent to heal the world from domination by lizard people? Oh, my God in Heaven, deliver me now. What's next, a revival of the Symbionese Liberation Army so sensible people can all go, "Look, forget it. I'd rather work for the clampdown than work my ass off for freedom so that nutcase 'revolutionary' groups can mount their own armies and go off on any 'establishment' figures they can find."

You know, if the over-riding moral struggle in this world is really about the plan of an ancient reptilian-human hybrid family to dominate the rest of us poor schmucks, I'm just plain not playing along. I'm going to go hang out with the French existentialists and smoke Gitanes and look unattainable. At least I'll be giving the God within a little experience of a certain kind of fun, and satisfying my stupid human side with some really good coffee.

Except in some highly symbolic way, Reptar has very little to do with my hopes for understanding among the people of the world. I needed to say that.

Maria

I know what you mean WriteOn. Im not too sure about this whole reptilian thing,but I have to tell ya,I DO see the forked tounges in some speeches. Its very mind blowing.
Yes,perhaps a lot of this stuff from Icke is metaphorically speaking, but then again, maybe not. He is actually a strongly psychic individual,and they see things on "other planes".
Either way, I dont stress over it..to me the terms are parallel...Illuminati/Luciferian/Saturnian/evil/darkness/satan etc.
The "secret" being to release the S-erpent in all of us out of our clown chakra..hehe.

hey, Simone de Beauvoir de Catholique Cripple Creek gitane smoking reptile smiting freedom fighter....viva la strawberry fields forever!

love, an unavailabe gitane smoking wanna-be.

Why, Maria? Why did you need to say that?

You know, I too think it makes more sense to think of the "reptilian" idea as a metaphor rather than a literal fact (although none of us KNOWS the truth about any of this) ... but that doesn't mean I need to dismiss the life's work and research of someone who does think it's literal as nothing but the lunatic ravings of a "blow dried TV presenter."

You know, the point I tried to make in the opening post of that conspiracy thread was that people from all over the conceptual and ideological spectrum had done valuable research into the behind-the-scenes power structure of the world, and that what we as intelligent open-minded people who care about the freedom and spiritual evolution of humankind should do is to listen to the specific ideas that each of these people have to convey, rather than accepting or dismissing them as "package deals" because we agree or disagree with their stance on religion/politics/metaphysics or what-have-you. But it seems that's what we're all doing anyway.

Your basic background seems to be what we used to call "liberal" in simpler times. Do you know that the first people (in modern times) to promote the idea that there was a worldwide corporate/banking "conspiracy" to undermine our freedoms were the John Birchers? Yeah, that's right, the arch-enemies of liberalism. Today those same ideas are expressed by radical environmentalists, reactionary Christian fundamentalists, New Age believers that we are genetically-engineered pawns in a cosmic struggle with Pleiadians and Sirians, humanitarian liberals who think it's all about Republican war mongers, capitalist conservatives who think its all about Democratic creeping socialism, anti-Americans who think it's all about the selfishness and arrogance of the USA, militant racists who think its all about Jews and Zionism, militant nationalists who think it's all a Communist plot, and God knows who else. All uncovering the same basic facts about a real power structure in the world that really seeks to dominate and control the people.

You tell me, are we as a people who want to avoid domination by a corrupt group of power wielders, better served by looking at the information uncovered by all these groups, or by taking pot shots at each other's underlying premises?

Maria, how long did you spend on David Icke's site? Ten minutes? Half an hour? Yet it was enough for you to dismiss him personally and anything he might have to say, because he holds a premise that you find ridiculous? How many people do you suppose might click in to our website and immediately dismiss anything they might find here because we are just a bunch of "astrology freaks?" When Linda Goodman was fighting with her very life to have the true facts of Sally's disappearance brought to light -- with concrete factual evidence of a massive coverup by the officials -- how many people listened to what she had to say, and how many dismissed it immediately because "she's an astrologer, for God's sake!"

Sorry, but I'm very depressed that the most intelligent and perceptive people here find it more important to put down each others' "ridiculous" ideas than to seek answers to the problems we have in common, and to work within a framework of tolerant discussion that seeks to work toward human unity -- not conformity but unity as spiritual beings who would rather love than fight -- and seek common ground behind the differences in belief and temperament that we will always have, to work toward that unity.

I'm going to eat some worms.

Love,
Greg

Greg,

I understand your first part as any thing can have knowledge embedded in its presentation but you're last part I don't get the transition (other than we try to understand the concern.)

I am having one of those weird moments right now.
Aries commented about the things happening in Portland and that reminded me of the to missing girls and if their fate was to have short lives (Words and Numbers).
So I was thinking about the strangeness of a vanishing person and then a repeated act.

I remembered that a Cougar was sited in a neighborhood park near where I grew up.
This park used to be a big diary on top of a mountain (hill) and now there are hundreds of people there. The city where there two girls were from seemed so far from there by the roads but then I looked on a map and if a Cougar goes over the back hills and down towards the South West it may only be a few miles.
I looked up Cougars and I have a page here that says they can roam hundreds of miles.

So maybe none if this is related but I found this quote,
Which somehow relates to the girls, I think,

"It is the lion's claw, the lion's tooth and need, that has given the deer its beauty and speed and grace."

And I also found out that a law passed a few years back has really messed up some wildlife vs. hunting and the way the Wife Life department uses computer software (as if it were telling the truth without regards for the inputted data sample.)

This has some powerful implications.

Media could be sued for giving the wrong news.
The states could sue the fed for giving out wrong information.
All wild Life departments could be sewed for any animal attack or death.

Just some thohts but is that something like what you mean?

Darwin

Hi Aries,

Thanks for your reply and for talking about it a bit. After I read the web site, I was thinking, "Wow, I really don't understand Aries or see her clearly or what she's about." I already knew that about you and me -- not in a bad way, just in the fact that we don't know each other very well... So, your response gives me a bit more of a clue as to where you're coming from. I hope you won't mind my asking a personal question. Is your interest in Biblical prophecy coupled with Christian faith of any particular tradition, or a more individual theology? Or is the Bible more a resource for prophecy, uncoupled from any particular set of understandings or beliefs that would hang together as a "creed"? I only ask for the sake of understanding each other.

Maria

Snowpea, mon chere, "always, no, sometimes think it's me, but you know I know and it's a dream..." Lennon in the air, mon frere.

That's all the French I know.

snowpea wannabe

Gregory,

Jeez mon, don't go eating worms on my account. Why did I feel I needed to make clear that I do not subscribe to a theory that postulates that the Enemy in this world is a group of "people" who are -- pssssst, not really "human" in the same way that we are human?

Well, let's see...It's OK to annihilate the Jews because the Jews are sub-human...It's OK to enslave black Africans because they are of an inferior "race" of humans. These guys we're up against now, it'll never work to try to reach them, they aren't really human. My humanity is different from your humanity, my humanity's different from yours. Nananananana.

George W. Bush and Ariel Sharon and Osama bin Laden and the Rockefellers and the Sa'uds and you and me and Bobbie McGee at the base of it all are human beings, sharing all that is inherent in the human condition. Except for Bobbie McGee, who is a fictional character, sometimes a woman, sometimes a man, depending upon who's singing the song.

I'm not going there if "there" is painting a non-human face on a group of humans, buttressed with some sort of genetic argument. Same old thing in brand new drag. I've seen it. I stand against it.

I spent two and a half hours at Icke's web site, and I read all of the articles, all the way through, that were recommended on the page for people new to the site. I think there were five of them. And yes, Icke's presentation of himself and his ideas there did result in the critical thought in my mind that he is slick and shallow. For "getting up to speed" on what's going on in the world, he recommended three movies. What do you offer a guy like that in return? A cartoon version of the meaning of life?

There may be some good information on his site -- IF it's unspun by his come-from. I would just rather get information from sources who I think "get it" in a basic way that human is human is human.

I'm not throwing YOUR ideas out, Greg. But I'm not in favor of having Icke believe that he needs to heal the world from the ravages of reptilian, shape-shifting, not actually human beings on MY behalf. I would argue for people NOT to follow him.

Do you think I'm wrong? Or do you just think I have a big mouth and shouldn't have said anything?

Love,
Maria

P.S. Aries, I loved the "clown chakra." A most beneficial chakra to activate.

hi WriteOn..yes,my "ideas" are an individual theology,definitely NOT from a church. I will say however,that I did go when younger..first to a United,then a baptist,and a Pentecostal( aka: "the holy rollers",although,I do have to say..that sect does study bible prophecy,so I was into it at a young age) I have always known certain things Maria..
I decided,to "start over" when older, and forget most things that I was told by the churches,as was advised by a couple of pretty good teachers. I took up meditation and prayer,and once combined,a person is "shown" things.I also have dreams,that parallel some of the prophecies,and thats a big part of why Im "into" it. A friend Im working with on the study told me.."you read like me,with 90 percent insight,and 10 percent data absorption".
In order to understand how the world events relates to prophecy,we should really study also,the teachings of Jesus(whos name by the way was NOT Jesus,but Yeshua)This truly helps put things all together.But keep in mind even the bible,was "played with". Most christians dont know that.(you could do searches on the early Ecumenical Councils,and what they did durying the 4th,5th and 6th centuries,and later)
The time is coming,when we will start to see the true apostasy involved within the church,and I wont make an appology for that statement. Praise the lord,and pass the collection plate . I think I heard on the news today,that some 90 priests have been arrested on child sex charges. The pope is a false idol, and yada yada.

I do comparative prophecy Maria,native(namely Hopi), Nosty,CAYCE,Mayan,and bible compared to other bible prophecy,etc.You have to compare biblical within itself,old test/new test. After time,one starts seeing the patterns,and sequence of events,and understands the connections...and the pieces fall into place.The hard part is the timeline.

Theres a book being sent to me written by Icke,(The Biggest Secret)so I'll have to get back to you on that guy I love his quote tho...

"Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut,
that held its ground."

Maria,

Don't take me too seriously right now. Jupiter is squaring my Neptune while the Sun moves in to oppose it in a few days, on top of all the Pluto-Saturn energy, so I'm feeling some heaviness and disillusionment myself that I may be projecting on you. I guess all that I was really saying is that I'm weary of hearing people and ideas put down harshly. You made a really brilliant case for not "dehumanizing" anyone as we seek to understand what is out of whack in our world community, and how we might change it for the better -- but in the process dehumanized David Icke and dismissed him as two-dimensional salesman of lunatic ideas!

Now I don't have any particular brief for David Icke (except that I do think he's sincere and not a slick snake-oil salesman) ... I think some of his ideas are too far out to be credible, some are a stretch but intriguing food for thought, and some right on the money ... but I think that like you and me he wants to find truth and seek freedom and spread light. Yeah, he's got a bit of "promotional" energy about him, but do you know anyone who seeks to influence others through writing and speaking who doesn't? Nature of the biz, if you want to reach an audience you have to promote yourself one way or another, whether you're an author, a newspaper columnist, a media personality or a politician.

Having said that, I did appreciate your point that

quote:

---

I'm not going there if "there" is painting a non-human face on a group of humans, buttressed with some sort of genetic argument. Same old thing in brand new drag. I've seen it. I stand against it.

---

Of course you do, and so do I. That would be just another face for racism, wouldn't it? And that is the problem - race, religion, nationality, gender, it's all "us against them," in its thousand-and-one forms. But you see, that's exactly what intrigues me about this thought form, is that it doesn't create an "us and them" view of what's going on: if humans were genetically engineered or crossbred with reptilian beings at some point in prehistory, then the "evil seed" is within us all ... to use the old paraphrase, "we have met the enemy and it is us!" And this is true whether taken literally or metaphorically as in the reptilian brain-stem that we all undeniably possess, and which seems to function on a purely predatory/instinctual level that must be consciously over-ridden by our "higher" faculties. Or not.

How does one fight a war on war? How do we hate hate, without being haters? One point David makes frequently in his books, is that while the agents of corruption, whether you call them the Illuminati, the "old boys club" of global finance and power, or just the establishment, must certainly be identified and their agenda opposed, they themselves are not the enemy, they are merely being used and manipulated like the rest of us. The real "enemy" is the reptilian agenda that is controlling them ... just as it controls each of us when we attack each other (physically or psychologically), cheat our neighbors, or join with others "like" ourselves to gain advantage over others "not like" us.

What that thought-form gives us is a way to conceive that all human beings are on the same side ... which is the only possible way we will ever get to a state of consciousness where "us" means not my country or my religion or my race, but my fellow inhabitants of Earth. That's the catch-22 of this whole business, is that as long as some human beings are "the enemy," there is no way to get to a world where all human beings are our brothers and sisters.

Of course this need can also be met by considering the enemy to be "Satan," or the shadow self, or simply the purely selfish and materialistic "part" of us all that is one component of our biological heritage. Any of these viewpoints give us the ability to "love the sinner, hate the sin," where the powers of corruption are concerned, because the "sinners" are just like us ... differing only in the degree to which they are misled to misconceive themselves as isolated and alone, and their security dependent on controlling others.

And this is why I am always saying, don't bash this or that country, this or that political party, this or that person. Because when we do that, regardless of our righteousness, we are expressing the energy of attack and promoting the thought-form of us and them. And that won't get us where we need to go. It's the toughest balance in the world, exposing great corruption and deceit and doing something to change it, without abandoning our belief in the goodness and oneness of life. Jesus said it: love your enemy.

Anyway, if any of that makes sense, there it is. If not, just chalk it up to my Neptunian afflictions.

Proxy, I don't know for sure if any of what you said is what I meant, because I really didn't understand it ... unless perhaps your quote about the Lion's predatory nature giving the deer it's beauty, speed and grace, was a way of saying we all create each other and share in both the credit and blame for the world we experience. If so, then yeah.

Aries, "clown chakra" is a keeper! That's wonderful.

Love,
Greg

Thanks for sharing your ways, Aries. Many of those ways are common to me as well, although many of our views are probably strikingly different. I also have meaningful dreams and interests in different sacred ways. So did St. Patrick, btw. Where I live, it's still his day, so he popped to mind.

I left my bishop's hat somewhere, so I'll pass on the opportunity to respond to the bishop-baiting portion of your post. It didn't feel like you really had your heart in it anyway. That was just for yada yada's sake, right?

I will try to rescue Saturn out of that powers-of-darkness pile he was in in your first post, though. I have a Capricorn moon that cautions me not to be so blinded by insight as to lose sight of reason. And to be very aware of principles. I think those are Saturnine suggestions that serve in the cause of enlightenment.

Oh! And, not a criticism, just a reminder... I think maybe you were looking for the word "Ecclesiastical." (I don't even know if I spelled that right.) Anyway, Ecumenical is a different word, kind of a cool one, I think...

Maria

Well, Greg, you've read more of his writings than I have, but what I saw said that the reptile rulers controlled the bloodline in order to maintain enough reptilism. And I didn't see anything saying we're all part reptile.

And I disagree that my characterization of Icke dehumanized him. The traits I alleged are, like, definitively human. Animals aren't slick. "Demons" or whatever, aren't shallow. But don't take me too seriously, either. I'm not calling you out to duel.

I guess it's somewhat comforting and somewhat funny to me that you can take a theory that on the very face of it dehumanizes the entire "ruling class," or what have you, and turn it into an egalitarian philosophy that meshes with your belief that love is the answer. Either that, or you're pulling my leg.

Well, look at that. Another day gone by and we STILL haven't solved the problem of evil. What's a kid to do?

Love & light & hope and I'll try not to be harsh,
Maria

Gosh! Anything's possible!

Hopefully without seeming to appear too gullible, I like to keep an open mind about any new information I receive...no matter how incredible it may seem....but that's just me....

Reptiles?? Maybe...maybe not...who really knows for sure???

I'll bet George Washington might have scoffed at the idea of people being transported from European soil to American soil at the speed with which a Concord will get them there..not to mention soaring thru the air, at that speed......granted, it was in the future when he was alive, but the "possibility" was there....*sigh*...

I'm inclined to think that truth is stranger than fiction...but that's just me and my two cents....

Luv,
Rainbow~

Ps...I've heard of people who believe the moon landing was "staged." How is that for skepticism?.......(but then, like Linda...I believe in elves and faeries, and the little people..*sigh*)

Heh, heh, no Maria, not pulling your leg. That actually IS what I think of Icke's alien idea.

Now, if he were saying "Let's get these alien scum!" that would be a different story entirely, but that's not what he's saying at all. He is just tying his own really vast research into the history of an apparently continuous conspiracy that stretches back AT LEAST hundreds and possibly thousands of years, (which is quite amazing when you think about it), with the ideas first expounded by Sitchin concerning the possible extraterrestrial origin of mankind and the meaning of some of our most ancient myths and sacred stories. I think it's an intriguing idea whether there's a shred of truth to it or not ... and I've read enough about this thought-form from different sources before even discovering David Icke to know that at least some of the really old-line "ruling class" apparently believe something along these lines about their own "divine right to rule" ... so to me it's one more line of human thought to investigate, to try to understand how we evolved into the curious creatures we are today (socially/politically as well as biologically).

But to be honest, the whole reptile alien thing is neither my main interest in David's research, nor the main thrust of his own message. To me, he is mainly a very thorough researcher who has pulled together what has been known and written about the "hidden ruling class" for centuries, together with his own independent research ... all very responsibly documented ... as a key resource to understand on a mundane physical-plane level the actual shape of the current plot to steer the world toward a coercive New World Order: the people, the organizations, their specific actions and statements and policies, and the actual impact they've had on unfolding world events especially in the last 200 years.

And no, I didn't think you dehumanized him in the sense of claiming he's not a human being, but in the same sense it is said we tend to dehumanize or demonize our enemies in war: turning them into two-dimensional caricatures of human beings with only the pejoritive "labels" we have for them visible, like "evil," "fanatic," and so on. The kind of thinking that makes them easy to dismiss as "not like us" and allows otherwise rational people to say things like "you can't reason with these kinds of fanatics, the only thing to do is kill them all."

In my experience, David Icke is one of the few serious conspiracy researchers who ISN'T dominated by hate and anger, who frequently reminds his readers that even the most culpable conspirators are just victims of mental programming like ourselves, and that the way to "defeat" them is through love, and our power to CHOOSE to follow values based on loving cooperation rather than allowing ourselves to be divided into perpetually hostile and separated armed camps. To me, that's a refreshing outlook in a field dominated by paranoia and victim mentality.

But I'm glad you aren't calling me out to a duel, my sword is out for repairs anyway.

Love and lizards,
Greg

Yeah, but Rainbow...maybe the witches burned at the stakes weren't really human either...Did they float? Wasn't that a test?

For me it's like this: on one hand are my moral principles and the lessons of history that say that everytime we brand a group inhuman we end up doing something awful and that the only sound way to approach people is as people. And on the other hand I have the opportunity (temptation?) to engage in fearful speculation about the very "nature" of some of the people of the earth.

Nature arguments are old hat. Of course that black guy is going to rape our daughters. And that wild Indian is going to scalp our wives. It's in their very nature. We better kill them first.

Just because the people targeted by this thinking now are people in power doesn't make it right. In terms of seeing things clearly and deciding on right courses of action to take, I'll choose the weight of moral principles and lessons of history over fearful speculation. And I doubt that they'll point to the same courses of action. That's why I keep coming back to make the point.

If Greg can make use of information gathered by people caught up in fearful speculation, as long as the information is valid, OK, I can see how that could help. But I don't want to give the Klan or the white supremacist survivalists OR the guy who thinks political leaders are lizards, or anyone else who looks at their fellow humans as less human than themselves, any support of any kind in the process.

Maria

Hi Maria.....hey gal...please don't feel as tho you have to explain to me, why you feel the way you do, about Icke and the reptiles.....You have a right to your opinions, and I respect that....but since I had one too, I thought I'd express mine.....so...that's cool..

Now...to answer your question. I've never heard of a witch being anything but human...I don't think any claims were ever made otherwise...only that they had powers and were evil...the ones that were dunked, stoned and burned, anyway....or that was the "narrow" thinking of those hysterical mobs, who put them to death...*sigh*...

Okay, this is NOT because I believe in the reptiles (even tho I am open to the idea), but I'm gonna change the subject here totally, Okay?....*sigh*...you say you are a Christian (and I guess I might be too, if believing that Christ was divine, makes one a Christian).... so ....tell me....in the Bible, it says that a "snake"(reptile), talked with Eve.....Do you really believe that? Was there actually a reptile conversing with the human woman? Or is that myth? And if myths starts that early in the Bible, how much more of what's in the Bibleare we supposed to believe? Just wondering what you take is, on that....

Now again, this is not in defense of David Icke, cuz I'm not all that familiar with him, and his writings, but I have read some of his stuff, and from what I understand, it doesn't appear that he's "dehumanizing" that powerful group, to put them in a catagory, that doesn't measure up (i.e. minorities, Jews, blacks, Indians etc) but to reveal something about what he believes to be their origins....and I think the only reason they might not measure up, is because of their lust for power and control, and their plan to enslave the common person, rather than because they look like frogs, or whatever..... You say that everytime we brand a group inhuman, we wind up doing something awful...*sigh* I don't think it's David's plan to do "something awful." Like Greg, and most of us here, he seems to think that love is the answer....

As I said, I'm not all that familiar with David's writings, so I'm no expert on all his beliefs, but from what I've read so far, I've yet to see any mention of lynching them, scalping them, putting them in camps and ovens, burning crosses on their lawns etc...he just seems to want to wake up people who don't have any inkling about the plans of the illuminati and frog people...

Geese, I hope I'm making sense to you....anyway...here in America, we still have the freedom of speech (so far), so let's make hay while the sun shines....

Luv,
Rainbow~

"Was there actually a reptile conversing with the human woman? Or is that myth? "

hehe Rainbow~EXCELLENT~You're on the ball for this time of the day! I was waiting for that one from SOMEONE~You get the cookie
luv ya

hi Maria,yes,the word is Ecumenical councils..(all christians will have their eyes opened when checking into it)this is a link I read a few years ago,but it looks like its been added to..
http://www.fromthestars.com/page48.html

Its interesting to note,that Nostradamus was of the kabbalistic faith,but his family had to convert to Catholicism out of fear for their lives. Its thought he secretly kept his faith..Just another example of dark mixed with light even in the church.

Excellent post Rainbow~

Your words flow with the essence of Linda
Loving, compassionate, gentle and strong combined with the dedication to find the Truth.

Thank-you!

Follow Your Heart
Pat

Why, thank you Pat....what a nice thing to say....

Luv,
Rainbow~

You are most welcome

Follow Your Heart
Pat

Rainbow, I love you, gal. The following rant is NOT directed to you, or Aries or Gregory or Pat...although I hope you'll all read it and See me, Hear me, Touch me, Feel me, lol. It's directed at something that's been bothering me in the world for long enough for me to need to say something...

Here's what I'll do. I'll answer the question and I'll answer it in a way that I hope will reveal something of a process that can be undertaken in our wonderings. Arrogant of me, I know. Maybe I'm implying that people don't know how to think, and that's a damn nasty thing to say about my brothers and sisters, some of whom may well be better thinkers than I am...

But...

We are not alone. We are the most overwhelmed people ever in terms of the amount of knowledge available to us that we don't have the time and mental calmness to look into. Everything is connected, and I dot-to-dot constantly for fun, breezy Neato glimpses and perspectives, but it's not enough. There are deeper currents where much of the lessons of the connectedness are hiding.

In Biblical scholars and interpreters, I look for the ones who are steeped enough in the (very detailed, maybe even "plain and boring") knowledge of the people who wrote the accounts, and who are also steeped enough in the revelation (not speaking here of the book of Revelation) but the revelation of God in our midst to understand the great Spirit that seeks to communicate with us...scholars who have enough of those things to apprehend in a Whole way, not a piece by piece way, what the subject matter is about. Scholars who have knowledge of the Jewish-Christian-Islamic understandings of those scriptures and who also have knowledge how that family of religions fits in the overall development of the idea of the holy in other civilizations simultaneously.

Then I steep myself in their presentation of the knowledge. Then I take the question into my own innermost sanctum, my place of revelation, my Jerusalem within.

And then I come here and say, well now, what shall I say? Who, among us, really has any bit of a care to know where I've arrived with the question and who is just playing with me and who is just waiting to pounce and who to simply dismiss my thoughts because I dared to Select an interpretation that withstands what intellectual rigor I can bring to it and is in integrity with my principles?

It's a problem of our age...this attitude that says we can't know anything or we already know what all the previous thinkers said and all they said is inadequate. News flash! The intellectuals and holy people that came before us DID combine intuition, inspiration, and the ability to see into the heart of things WITH their intellectual reason. We are not the first people to see the value of following the heart and recognizing the value of the "third eye."

So many of these questions have been adequately, even brilliantly, asked and answered before we ever thought to ask them.

I find it absolutely astonishing, kind of giggly funny and excrutiatingly sad that on a spiritual discussion forum with the potential to bring together lots of thoughts from lots of cultures and perspectives and individual people, with a potential to lay some foundation for love and understanding, that on such a forum there appears to be absolutely no interest whatsoever in finding a basis of guiding principles such as affirming the underlying humanity of all people.

That's scary. That's blow-my-mind scary.

I'll be back to present my thinking on creation mythology, because I said I would. But my family needs me now.

Maria

quote:

---

that on such a forum there appears to be absolutely no interest whatsoever in finding a basis of guiding principles such as affirming the underlying humanity of all people.

---

???

Hmm ... guess I'll have to wait for part two of your post to see where you're going ... I kinda thought that's what we were working toward here ...

Love and bated breath,
Greg

HI, I have been trying to follow this for a couple of days, and I just wanted to ask if it is correct to assume, that the serpent that talked to EVE, actually represents the Kundalini serpent (in the spinal column) awakening and opening EVE'S Third Eye. Hence giving her Knowledge.? How many people see it this way? So I dont think that a two part conversation took place there She was not manipulated by a reptile in that sense......

Its all relative from the point of observation......

bye from Vanessa

This was a double post, so Im going to take the opportunity to say that, not many, but some people have reminded me of a reptile, there Ive said it.....Salamander Eyes maybe.
not sure what it is, bye, V.

hi Crazy..thats sort of how I personally see it too.
But am still investigating the issue
Serpent within, and without.
As above, so below.

Maria, please do post about the Creation Myths..its an important and interesting topic!Ive also studied a few..do you see the "common threads" in them?

Hi Maria.. ....Lady, I love you too, and I truly hope you're not upset...but in your last post...you seemed a little "rattled!"....and you know what? I've been thinking about it, and have come to the conclusion that it wasn't really fair of me to ask that goofy snake question, anyway.....I'm sorry that I did ...cuz lord knows, there must be a million different answers....and I'm not even sure what prompted me to ask...except maybe cuz a snake is a reptile...*sigh*......but don't feel you have to answer that question...you could ask it of me, and I'm not sure what I'd tell you.......but *sigh*, for you to start feeling excrutiatingly sad .....and be mind blowingly scared... tells me that somebody, or some of us, disappointed you in some way....I'm sorry....so please forget about Eve and the snake...(maybe he was a phallic symbol )

Anyway, I would erase that question if I could, but it's already out there...so I'll just say it's not really necessary for you to do any in depth pondering about an answer...at least it's not necessary as far as I'm concerned...*sigh*...it was just a silly, impulsive thing for me to do...(my progressed Sun is in Aries)....Okay?

Luv,
Rainbow~

HI Aries me too,

Rainbow I know it pains you, but it helped me to answer my question on that same thing.
Somehow I thought Rainbow, that you would take my comment the wrong way.. I still think it was very relevant

Bye from Daze

Hi Daze, Nice to see you. Thanks for the PM. I'm being very slow today. Rainbow was trying to ease my sadness, not criticizing you, hon.

Thanks for the encouragement, Rainbow and Aries and Greg. It's OK, Rainbow. Thanks for saying that, though. I feel your empathy. And Aries, thanks for repackaging it as just an interesting topic.

Maybe I'm just feeling like Greg was feeling the other day...or like Terri was feeling back when she said she was losing her optimism. I have Pluto in a transiting trine with my first house Uranus. I'm supposed to be tossing old thoughts aide, without sadness, and zooming ahead to new ideas.

But I find myself digging in my heels and saying, "Not without a declaration first that, 'We find these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights.' " That or a similar sentiment from another sphere -- without making an exception for "the enemy." But I guess I came at it badly, approaching it not from the straight-ahead approach but in opposition to a theory some people seem to be interested in.

I do get it about salamander eyes and forked tongues. But I disagree strongly that evil (call it what you will) is genetically part of any bloodline in our world. I don't see how that could be theologically, morally or scientifically sound.

But I've probably said that about 99 ways, and nobody else seems to want to be part of the "We" of the self-evident truths, so I guess it's time to give that one time. After all, we've got time. We aren't marching off in crusade tomorrow.

Sorry, there'll be nothing eye-popping in my creation musings, heh. But it might be a bit interesting to some. Rainbow, I spent several hours last night, doing the immersing and pondering, and then when I came here earlier today I just couldn't find either the oomph or the time to start culling out the highlights and writing them up. I'm still feeling really lackadaisical now, but not quite as sad. Maybe the idea of, underneath it all, people being people will ultimately prevail, even in this tough crowd.

At some point, probably tonight, I'll write something mediocre here for you all.

Maria

Very strange, Maria ... I'm experiencing that I keep agreeing with you, and you keep coming back saying "nobody agrees with me."

It almost feels like "I agree that no one is genetically evil" isn't enough unless it's accompanied by "and I condemn David Icke!" That may be way off base, but I don't get it otherwise. I know you know that's where I'm coming from, because I must have said a hundred times on different threads "don't bash this or that country/race/religion," "we are all human beings who want to be happy and avoid suffering," "even the corrupt dominators are just victims of the illusion of separation," and so on and so on. And surely I've defended the Declaration of Independence and Constitution vocally enough that it should be self evident that I hold those truths to be self-evident! So ... ? ... the only thing I can come up with is that you must have gotten a strong enough sense of racism from what you read on David's website that not condemning him overrides anything else I might say about this. Am I off base here?

If so, it's an unfortunate sticking point, because I'm not any kind of big defender of David Icke at all, I've just read a few of his books and found them interesting and well-researched for the most part. But I do not see that racist mindset that you see. To the contrary, I think he's very sensitive to the issue and goes out of his way to clarify that he's NOT condemning anyone because of bloodline.

quote:

---

I would emphasise also before I end here that I am exposing certain reptilian GROUPS behind the Illuminati, not the reptilian genetic stream in general. ... Indeed, every one of us has a body with much reptilian genetics, including part of the brain called the R-complex, the reptilian brain.

---

The whole reptilian theory is very complex, and there are many versions of it, but the general outline as I understand it is that human beings - all human beings - are the result of genetic manipulation by an alien species who visited here long ago, intending to make us "slaves." Now according to the story, the leaders of this conspiracy set up "kings" who have sought to pass down power through the ages, and one of the elements of their "right to rule" is a "pure bloodline" from the original reptilian "creators." But that's THEIR belief. And we DO know that in point of fact throughout human history, a strong belief in "royal bloodlines" IS the main rationale that the ruling class have used to justify their "divine right to rule. We also know the Nazis strongly believed that they were "divinely ordained" as a race to rule, etcetera, etcetera. This genetic destiny idea has played a BIG role in the power struggles of mankind through the ages, and it doesn't really make sense to fail to examine the idea because we don't like it. Of COURSE we don't like it, it's inimical to everything we value about freedom, humanism, and spirituality. But it DOES exist, and has been a powerful force in the world. That's what this idea is about: if some people believe that they are the inheritors of the "ownership" of humanity by virtue of their "pure descent" from reptilian beings, why would I NOT want to know that?

Anyway, if the whole thought form is too bizarre to interest you, or you don't like David Icke's style and manner of presentation, that's cool ... I don't really see that as a central point of discussion, and I haven't seen anybody "pushing" that point of view anyway. But it's not about finding a new racial label for "the enemy," and it's certainly not about going on a reptile witch-hunt.

I can only speak for myself, but I definitely am part of the "We" of the self-evident truths!

Love,
Greg

*sigh*

OK, Greg, you're coming through clearer now. See, I thought you were taking his ideas and instead of following them to their logical conclusions you were pulling them through a rationalizing and reshaping process to make them more palatable, and thereby fraudulently stripping the ideas of their moral offensiveness. Now that IS a nasty thing to think about one of my favorite people -- you. But I was cutting you a ton of slack too, because I definitely did not think you were working an intentional fraud for any sort of malevolent reasons. I just thought you were being entirely too generous to Icke, because of the very generous nature of your heart. And I thought you were choosing open-mindedness as an absolute value. As in, "Who cares if the ideas we consider are offensive to basic moral understandings? We must open our minds to their lessons anyway."

OK, but now you're saying (maybe re-iterating) that I don't understand the complexity of the reptile theory and that Icke is not condemning anyone by bloodline. But the quote you offer, re: reptilian groups behind the illuminati -- just makes my ears prick up and my teeth set on edge all over again. Do I want you to condemn David Icke? I guess I want you to continue including the caveats every time you reference those ideas. Hey, you asked. I guess I want David Icke to sit down and really honestly face the moral implications of a hybrid-critter theory (some more hybrid than others -- you can't escape that implication, logically) and ask himself whether being able to bill himself as the most controversial speaker of our time is too important to him.

I don't know which of today's power-hungry, money-hungry masters of war do think they have a divine right (or a Yale-given right) or a hereditary right to rule. I certainly will allow as how some probably do hold that thought somewhere in their psyches. But THEY aren't saying that idea came there from their Master Race ancestors. You're telling me that Icke and others believe that idea came to those people from their Master Race ancestors. So it's Icke and his cohorts postulating the actual, historical existence of a Master Race. Yeah, heck, I guess I'm back to where I don't understand how you don't hear the alarm bells I'm hearing.

Love and angst,
Maria

Hi again Maria...I'm going to toss something else out at you....I realize you're agitated, and I'm not doing this to keep that going, but I'd just kinda like your opinion about something else, since you feel so strongly about the reptilian thing.....*sigh*....

A lot of Native Americans believe that at certain times...some of them are able to turn into animals....shape shifting, I think it's called...they truly believe this....I know my dad did...he used to tell us stories about it...does that idea offend you? I'm not meaning to offend you...I'd just like your opinion...thanks for considering it...

Luv,
Rainbow~

Okay, we may be getting somewhere here.

To make the moral implications clearer, let's look at the Nazi experience rather than the reptile idea, because that's something the world has lived through, and regardless of moral implications we can all agree on certain facts, like for example, that there IS a Jewish (semitic) bloodline in the world, and there IS an Aryan bloodline (although it's certainly arguable about how genetically "pure" an expression of any racial/genetic line any contemporary people may be.) It would certainly be a mistake to stigmatize discussion of the role racial beliefs had in the making and unfolding of the Nazi agenda, because without that information, the holocaust is incomprehensible. What we want to avoid is the implication that any beliefs about racial superiority are TRUE, and more important, to repudiate the idea that whatever racial differences do exist (and certainly there are some, otherwise races would be indistinguishable) imply greater or lesser "rights" or basic human standing. THAT idea, and nowhere else, is where the evil of racism resides. So let's stipulate at the beginning that regardless of WHAT the "facts" might be about reptile aliens, that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal." And let's broaden the "all men" part to include not only women and children but also reptile aliens and silicon-based aliens and any other intelligent life-forms the Universe may contain. Let's re-phrase it to say "all sentient beings are created equal, and are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights that are the same for all." Okay?

Okay. Now, your point - "I certainly will allow as how some probably do hold that thought [of the divine right to rule] somewhere in their psyches. But THEY aren't saying that idea came there from their Master Race ancestors. So it's Icke and his cohorts postulating the actual, historical existence of a Master Race."

Well first of all, some of them ARE saying that (although not widely or publicly). Cathy O'Brien, the former CIA mind-control slave, details in her book a number of rituals and other experiences she was subjected to in which certain very prominent figures in the power structure explicitly told her that they were descendants of an alien master race, and even demonstrated to her their "shape-shifting" from human to lizard-like form and back again!

Now Cathy's take on this is very different from David Icke's: she believes (now that she has been de-programmed) that these ideas are used to instill fear as part of the mind-control technology - that the shape-shifting and lizard alien stories are deliberately fearful stories (enhanced by stage-magic tricks) designed to make their subjects more compliant. She also states the same thing about Satanic rituals to which she and other mind-control victims were subjected (including gruesome blood sacrifice and terribly disturbing sexual rituals) ... that these thought-forms and rituals are used for their shock and intimidation value, and that the controllers are neither reptile aliens nor Satanists, but that they use these ideas to confuse and intimidate those they would control. This idea actually makes a lot of practical sense to me, knowing how trauma-based mind control works, but again I have no real first hand knowledge of the truth.

We know that the whole history of humans seeking domination over one another is the history of the belief in the superiority of some over others ... not just in the obvious cases like Nazism, but in ALL cases. What else IS the assumption of dominant power other than the assertion that the rulers are "better" than the ruled and have the RIGHT to rule and dominate? That's what "royalty" is all about through the entire history of the world. That's what the entire culture of conquest and domination has ALWAYS been based on. When Columbus and his crew raped and enslaved the natives upon landing in the New World, it was because he was a member of the "superior" white European race/culture and the natives were less-than-human "savages," right? Same thing with the Spansich Conquistadors in South America and the Dutch and English slave traders in Africa. Same thing with the westward expansion of the United States - it was a matter of killing or repressing the "savages" to make way for noble civilization, right? Conquest - all conquest - is based on the assumption of the racial, class, or cultural superiority of the conquerors, ALWAYS.

Does it really matter what the rationale for the superiority is? Whether it's because God singled out their ancestors to rule (as He supposedly did with the Merovingian Kings and the Hapsburgs) or because their race is "genetically superior" or because their cultural accomplishments are "proof" that they are superior to the unwashed primitives they conquer, or because their nation has a "manifest destiny" that is aligned with Divine will, or whatever ... it's ALL about the superiority of "us" over "them," which gives "us" the right to treat "them" as subhuman.

Do you really suppose it's any different today? That there is a cohesive generation-spanning conspiracy to control the world, spread by various secret and occult organizations along with various political and economic organizations and "good old boys" networks in todays world, is so well documented that (in my mind, at least) it is FACT. I am interested in the ideology behind that conspiracy, and the reptilian hypothesis is one possible way of understanding it. Certainly it is true that these people think that the "illuminated," "enlightened" ones have the right to rule, and they DO say that openly. Laws in the proposed World Government currently being promoted under the mantle of the U.N. -- and in the current European COmmunity today, its intended precursor -- are NOT passed by democratic vote, but by administrative decision of "enlightened" public servants, those who are "best able to choose wisely on behalf of all humanity." Come on, who's kidding who?!

To me, even if the reptilian hypothesis were 100% factually accurate, and the ruling class ARE direct descendants of ancient alien slave-masters, it still would not give them the right to rule, nor anyone else the right to single out reptile descendants for persecution. WE ARE ALL CREATED EQUAL. That is what this struggle is all about, and that is the needed shift in consciousness that will allow us to live in peace and harmony rather than as dominators and dominated.

That doesn't mean that I don't want to know what's in the minds of these people, any more than I would have wanted to know about the thought-form of the "final solution to the Jewish problem" before it was publicly revealed or implemented. Would the desire to understand the master race ideas of the Nazis have raised alarm bells in you? There IS a "real" Aryan race behind these ideas - or at least a racial "root" - but being aware of it doesn't make me (or anyone that I know of) prone to persecute people of Aryan descent. It just makes me better able to RESIST the wrong-minded idea that those of Aryan descent are "better" than others and have the right to control or kill them. If it should happen to be true that there is a "real" reptilian race behind the New World Order conspiracy, it will not make me want to persecute those with supposedly purer alien blood, either. The "danger" of racist thought-forms is the assumption that members of the targeted race are inferior or that we have a "right" to treat them with less respect than ourselves ... NOT the recognition that races exist. Even lizard alien races.

DO they exist? I don't know, but I'd like to find out, and investigating that is certainly no expression of racism on my part. Or David Icke's. To you, the idea of reptile aliens seeking to control humanity is evidently so patently absurd that you can't conceive of anyone espousing such an idea except for ulterior motives, but that is simply not true for me. I read the researches of Sitchin LONG before I had ever heard of David Icke, and found this hypothesis interesting back then, and still do.

But whether it has any truth to it or not, my argument is not with lizard aliens -- my argument is with anyone of any race or belief who thinks it's okay to dominate and control others. If there are such creatures, doubtless there are those among them who oppose the ideas of domination supposedly set in motion so long ago by their kindred lizards (and in fact, that is a critical part part of this extended idea - that there were "rebel" aliens who set up secret schools to teach humanity the spiritual realities that the "slaver" aliens concealed from us to control us - and that the "sometimes light, sometimes dark" character of occult teachings through the ages is the result of exactly this power struggle.) Anyway, as I say the whole thought form is a big, complex subject, and it is truly a mistaken oversimplification to jump to the conclusion that "someone is talking about alien races at the root of the conspiracy, therefore that person is a dangerous racist who must be repudiated."

So. Any progress, or do you still feel I am rationalizing racism?

Love,
Greg

Rainbow,

Actually, I'm feeling much less agitated today. Thanks for putting up with me through my agitation. And, actually, when I first included shape-shifting in that first post of mine, I almost stopped and took it out, because my medicine man friend did that to one extent or another using one mechanism or another, but I'm quite uninitiated as to the "how."

Maria

P.S. He was physically an ordinary human being, absolutely no different from other humans who don't "shape-shift," and never claimed to be other. Just to clarify.

Maria....thanks for partly answering my inquiry, regarding shape shifting....I say "partially" because you still didn't tell me if you were offended that a "human" could be "animal" sometimes....

From what I gather, you accept the Native shape shifting concept..and if so...then you agree it's possible for "humans" to sometimes be animals...Okay...then why is it, one idea (reptiles) upsets you....and another one (Native shape shifting) is accepted without question???

Please understand here, I'm only trying to clarify something, which puzzles me....and it's without malice, or the desire to be difficult...it's only curiosity...*sigh*..Okay?

Thanks for considering this..

Luv,
Rainbow~

PS.....Maria, did you ever see the movie THUNDER HEART? I'm asking because some "shape shifting" took place in it...

Luv,
Rainbow~

Gregory....you make perfect sense to me (as always)...I especially liked the point you made, when you said:

"If it should happen to be true that there is a "real" reptilian race behind the New World Order conspiracy, it will not make me want to persecute those with supposedly purer alien blood, either. The "danger" of racist thought-forms is the assumption that members of the targeted race are inferior or that we have a "right" to treat them with less respect than ourselves ... NOT the recognition that races exist. Even lizard alien races."

Luv,
Rainbow~

Hahahahahahaha, you know, I must be asking for it big time. Greg's last post was about to make me post in return, *WARNING* *WARNING* WILL ROBINSON, ARGUMENT EXPANDING. Because in order to answer him honestly, I'll have to go into several other subject areas. Not to mention the other subjects that have popped up on this thread, first of all the creation mythology discussion, which could be really fun if lots of people bring lots of different stuff to it, and which probably is deserving of its own thread. Then there's the question of distinguishing the genres of writing: myth, history, analogy, allegory and others in the Bible and other sacred literature of other cultures. And now, shape-shifting. Plenty to keep us busy.

Rainbow, I would love it if YOU would do some digging and pondering and presenting on shape-shifting. I really truly would. My understanding of native American experience of shape-shifting is that, while some may have more "talent"-type potential for it, still it is learned, it involves study and developing affinity with certain animals and it involves a transcendant mental "projection," I'm going to call it. AND all of what I just said could be wrong. It's deductions from brushing up against it, nothing more.

The short answer for why that concept is not morally offensive to me is that it does not involve believing that there is a group of human-like earthlings, descending just as we all are from the times of pre-history, that is MADE of a different stuff than the rest of us are and so, in its very NATURE, is not human, but alien and other.

Our imaginations provide us with the possibility of silicon-based life forms and what-not that "could" be "theoretically" possible. And Greg, of course, already extended to them an invitation to be part of the human community. But I say, look, we've already had thousands of years of trying to reach a peaceful HUMAN community, and that is still the job at hand, and I strongly reiterate that it does not help in those efforts to hold the belief that some people are of a different essence and not essentially human.

Greg -- I'll be back with my branching out. We will probably have to agree to disagree, but in the meantime, Socrates, you certainly are prompting me to clarify and express my thoughts about the beneficial use of the powers of the mind -- in terms of my choices of how best to apply it.

Now, the thing is, my babe wants to ride her little red trike and I'll soon have five overnight guests and much remains to be done. So I'll have to catch as catch can and drag the conversation out a while longer.

Love,
Maria

P.S. Rainbow, no I never saw Thunder Heart, but I'll watch for it now. Did you ever see The Milagro Beanfield War? Wonderful movie. Keep your eye on the pig.

Maria, no I did not see THE MALAGRO BEANFIELD WAR...but like you, I will watch for that too..

Now...about shape shifting..*sigh*...I know very little about it, except what I've heard...In the THUNDER HEART movie, it was used by a Native who was escaping the 'bad guys'....he turned into a deer...and kept running.....

From what I understand, within our own tribe (Ottawa Indians)...it was used in a "bad" way, similar to voo doo, or black magic...and called 'THE BEAR WALK' Once in a great while, my dad would talk about it, but my mom (non-native and blonde), kinda put the kabash on discussions of such nature, cuz she more or less looked upon it as "superstition".... but just in case is WAS true, she didn't want the children to know about "such things.".... *sigh*...so to please her, my dad didn't talk about it all that much...but I do remember him saying that only "certain" people were capable of doing it, and if you became their enemy, they could (I'm gonna use "curse", for lack of a better word) you in some way...anywhere from causing terribly bad luck, to severe illness to even death!.........Somehow, someway, the person with such powers, needed to turn into an animal first....usually a bear, I think...hence, the Bear Walk.....Often, when something not too pleasant "happened" to someone in the tribe, it was assumed they were "BEAR WALKED."....*sigh*....and that's about all I know about "shape shifting." *sigh*......

Luv,
Rainbow~

Take your time, Maria ... or feel free to just let it slide if it's more trouble than it's worth.

However, I will make two small comments on the core of your your message:

quote:

---

...we've already had thousands of years of trying to reach a peaceful HUMAN community, and that is still the job at hand, and I strongly reiterate that it does not help in those efforts to hold the belief that some people are of a different essence and not essentially human.

---

1. If we are intellectually honest, I don't think we get to choose our beliefs on the basis of whether they are "useful" to our overall agenda. I think we have to choose them on the basis of what we judge most likely to be TRUE. It might be more helpful to the cause of a peaceful human community if I believed that everyone was equally intelligent or equally kind, but ...
2. I don't believe that some people are of a different essence and not essentially human. In my understanding of this hypothesis, we are either ALL half-breed aliens or none of us are. If we are, then by now, lo these many millennia later, the reptile genes are all a part of our "humanity" for good or ill; and any belief by some that they are special by virtue of being of "purer" reptilian blood - or by others that they are "evil" for the same reason - is just as ridiculous as the belief (to this day) that certain royal dynasties are special by virtue of descending from the Biblical House of David! Now I can't guarantee that David Icke's view on this is identical to mine, but I can guarantee that it's possible to read and appreciate his writings without believing that some people are not essentially human ... because I do!

Love and dialectic,
Greg

hi everybody....

i'm feeling verrrryy yucky currently and not up to much of anything except reading here every once in awhile, and while i have a lot in my head, i have not enough strength to articulate and post.

just wanted to say that this entire thread is brilliant and i am learning so much from each of you. everyone seems to be at his/her best here, and i am expanding in many ways just absorbing it all.

thanks to all the beautiful knowflakes of fine and flowing heart.....

love from a wilted snowpea

hi snowpea..take care of yourself girl! You need rest (and try not to stress over anything!)

Maria,Im going to mention a biblical verse to you which suggests we may/could be more "hybrid" than we even know or realize. This is the verse that got Sitchin going on his studies. He understands early language,Hebrew,and cuniform script,and got started with the original works of the bible,being the Torah which was handed down to Moses..

From Genesis 6:4.."the Nephilim were on earth in those days,and also afterward,when the sons of god came into the daughters of men.
Then the lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth,and that every intent of thoughts of his heart was only evil continually"

This is a section of the bible,which is the basis for many a "creation story"...hey,theres a good topic!!

HI there Snowpea, hope you feel ok soon, there have been plenty of days I have just read and could not even though I wanted to, comment or say anything at all...?

Hi Aries, there are lots of comments on the "Creation". Just recently I asked someone what is "Gilgamesh" after I saw the title in a book catalogue, and they replied, "The Story of Creation", anyway Ive ordered the Book and have absolutely no idea what I am in for, or if it is from authentic sources...?? Have you any knowledge as to the word Gilgamesh, I feel so ignorant not knowing this title.

byee.V...

hi CD..yes,its from the Gilgamesh Epics..do you know how to do a search online?
( Im about to head out)

Yes,its a creation story.(the et/gods myths)From doing a quick scan of this posted url, I think it may be one of the more "truer" ones.(I didnt read it) http://eawc.evansville.edu/nepage.htm

You may want to search out info on Zecharia Sitchin..namely the book titled "The 12th Planet"

I have no "firm" beliefs in a lot of this right now..still investigating..

ok..you could also check this site. This guy has done a lot of work,I know him only slightly,so I know his work is based on actual study..and LOTS of it.
http://timedwards.topcities.com/dreamscape.htm

Hey, wow, I love you guys.

I mean I love, love, love you.

Snowpea, I'm about to drive down to Texas and give you chicken soup and strawberries and cream. None of my pregnancies were easy and some were miscarriages. It's a huge miracle you've given yourself over to, hon, and a huge strain on all your systems. Plus, the modern pregnancy books must be written about all those Amazon-sized American, beef-eating, cornfed women who tower over me when I go out, who can work and exercise up to the ninth month, when I've never actually gotten a baby to wait a decent nine months before being born. The books tell you about the earth-mother, good-breeding-stock type women (NOTE to any such ladies reading this: I am not making fun of you; I envy you!), but I myself have not managed to carry off an earth-mother pregnancy. Throw the "be a hero without breaking a sweat" books on the fire. They tell you not to treat yourself or let your doctors treat you as a "patient." Nonsense. You ARE in a delicate condition. The old wives were right. You are. You must be ever so gentle with yourself, and so should others. Or I will come get them.

If you do get to feeling stronger than an ox, so much the better for you. But in the meantime, don't expect it of yourself or let others get away with expecting it of you. My mama-hen side is really concerned about you, and of course you may end up turning a corner and having everything go smooth as butter. Surely, at least, you will get to feeling better, but when you feel crummy, get all the rest and quiet and peace, peace, peace you can. OK?

Maria

Aries, Thanks for the Biblical reference (from the part of Genesis that the scholars term mythology -- which doesn't necessarily mean untrue, but told in the larger than life, fanciful style of multi-layered symbols and such). I came across that when I was checking out Zecharia Sitchin's web site, after Greg mentioned Sitchin's work.

I haven't had a chance to visit the other links you posted here in the last few days.

But I want to say, I find Sitchin more real, more credible, more heart-y by far than Icke. I expect you'll read Icke's book with your good brain in gear, and take only what rings true. But I just wanted to say, my nose detects a huge difference between those two guys' sites. FWIW.

Maria

Greg,

I have to get this down quickly because I'm falling asleep. Please understand that I am well aware that you are a lovely, intelligent person who could read any amount of Nazi programming material and not become a Nazi, and the same thing with any other hate-filled philosophy. They won't get you. They won't get me. That's not the trouble. But really, my friend, your version of the reptile theory IS NOT the same as Icke's version. The following is verbatim from his site, from an article or letter that he signs, "Love, David." Love, my foot. The stuff in bold is the emphasis I added.

quote:

---

...These "gods" could not take over the planet openly because there are not enough of them, so they are doing it covertly by appearing human. Movies like They Live, The Arrival (the first, not the sequel), and the US television series, V, tell the story of what is REALLY going on. I urge you to think about watching these movies to get up to speed if you are new to all of this...

(NOTE: I skipped over some paragraphs here)

...And as a result of the waves The Biggest Secret has caused, and the new information, experiences, and accounts the book and this website have attracted from all over the world, there is a growing understanding that this apparently bizarre, crazy, story is actually true. That the world may indeed be controlled by reptilian bloodlines that hide behind apparently human form and it is this understanding which pulls together all the apparently unconnected information on this site into a very much connected whole....

Follow the Illuminati-reptilian bloodlines from the ancient world to now and they have ALWAYS taken part in human sacrifice ceremonies and blood-drinking. The sacrifices to "the gods" in the ancient accounts were literally sacrifices to the reptilians and their hybrid bloodines. The story of the blood-drinking Dracula is symbolic of these reptilian "vampires". One of the locations of this reptilian group would appear to be the star-system known as Draco and "draconian" certainly sums up the Illuminati.

To hold their human form, these entities need to drink human (mammalian) blood and access the energy it contains to maintain their DNA codes in their "human" expression. If they don't, they manifest their reptilian codes and we would all see what they really look like. "Oh, my God, Mr. President, do you always eat your breakfast from across the room?".

From what I understand from former "insiders", the blood (energy) of babies and small children is the most effective for this, as are blond-haired, blue-eyed people. Hence these are the ones overwhelmingly used in sacrifice, as are red- haired people also, it appears.

This is why people like George Bush, Henry Kissinger, and a stream of the other Illuminati "big names" are exposed in my books and on this site as reptilian shape-shifters who take part in human sacrifice and blood drinking. The two go together.

---

The creatures he describes ARE ESSENTIALLY DIFFERENT from me and mine. I have never once had to drink the blood of an infant of whatever hair color in order to maintain my human shape. What's more, if ever I meet a baby-blood-sucking, reptilian creature intent on satisfying its jones, I will plunge my vorpal blade into its small, cold heart at the earliest possible opportunity.

Plus, Greg, I KNOW you recognize this. It's the same "blood libel" used to persecute and lynch Jews in medieval times. It's a thought-form dripping in blood and reeking of scandal and shame. And it is being used against Jews again, and Icke's stuff feeds into that. Here is from Newsweek, from an article about whether Israel can survive:

quote:

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How is it that this little country of 6 million people has come to demand so much of the world’s attention? How does it inspire so much love among some people, so much hate among others? Some look for answers in the holy Scriptures—in the Torah, the Bible, the Qur’an. Others try to discover the dynamic in the texts of the British Empire’s secret accords, in the history of the Holocaust and its aftermath, in the demagoguery of Arab-nationalist politics. But there are also other narratives, evil-minded mythologies that feed hatred and create foundations of prejudice so persistent and pervasive that they are almost impossible to eradicate. “And we are hearing again all of this filth,” says Deputy Foreign Minister Michael Melchior, “all of this poison which led to so many disasters of the past.”

A SPECTER OF A NEW ANTI-SEMITISM

A columnist in the Saudi daily Al-Riyadh took it on herself this month to explain the rituals of Purim and Passover. The first holiday (which took place in February) commemorates the story of Esther’s saving the Jews of Persia from extermination. It’s a rollicking, hard-drinking, happy time for most celebrants. Some call it the Jewish Mardi Gras. Passover is more somber, as Jews commemorate the night that the Tenth Plague was sent by God to smite the firstborn children of Egypt but passed over the homes of Jews and allowed Moses to lead them to freedom. Each part of the ritual meal is full of symbolism. But that is not what the columnist, a medical doctor at King Faisal University Hospital, told her readers.

For the Purim pastries, she said, “the Jewish people must obtain human blood.” And for Passover, there are some special requirements: “the blood of Christian and Muslim children under the age of 10 must be used.” And so, in almost clinical detail, Dr. Umayma Ahmad al-Jalahma recounted a hideous libel that dates back to the Crusades. “A needle-studded barrel is used,” she told us. “The victim suffers dreadful torment—torment that affords the Jewish vampires great delight ... ” You get the idea.

The column appeared in the government-sanctioned newspaper shortly before Vice President Dick Cheney arrived in Saudi Arabia for talks. Since the Saudis are proposing a plan for peace with Israel, the screed was, to say the least, an embarrassment.

---

Now, Ickes is traveling the world preaching his blood libel, and what is he feeding? I don't want to feed him.

Then there's this part, also from the same piece on Icke's site:

quote:

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I would emphasise also before I end here that I am exposing certain reptilian GROUPS behind the Illuminati, not the reptilian genetic stream in general. There are many of reptilian origin who are here to help humanity to free themselves from this mental and emotional bondage. Indeed, every one of us has a body with much reptilian genetics, including part of the brain called the R-complex, the reptilian brain. It is merely a matter of degree.

---

You know this argument too, right? It goes, "Well, not all black people are niggers, but some of them are."

I offer many sincere apologies to anyone reading for having used the n word, but I feel the need to be plain spoken, perhaps in the extreme, because, yes, there is a real danger of rationalizing racism in dealing with this guy's ideas.

And as far as your saying, Greg, that the reptile theory isn't all that vital to Icke's message...that's not what he says. He says:

quote:

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I trust this brief summary will help you to see the relevance of all the articles and information you will find on this site. In the end all these apparently unconnected "conspiracies" are part of ONE conspiracy designed to introduce ONE agenda. The reptilian control of Planet Earth and its entire population.

---

Now, I do understand and sympathize with the problem that you wrote about when you first broached the conspiracy topic -- that almost everyone doing the research has a hateful agenda, and you don't.

But just like you got the info from the real journalist, Greg Palast, which you just posted on another thread in this forum, "Free Trade NOT," so, I hope, you'll spot more of those sorts of credible sources who approach the problem without feeding into hateful philosophies that lead to tragic consequences.

I have a little more to say, but I think I better post before I lose this...

Maria

Hey again Greg,

OK, let me cobble this piece on and then I'll knock it off for a bit, although I never did get into those other areas I was going to expand into in answer to your previous post...

Icke says this about Sitchin:

quote:

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This is why I found it so astounding when I was told by Zecharia Sitchin, the best-known translator of the Sumerian tablets, that there was no evidence of a serpent race in the ancient world. Of course there is. He also strongly advised me in relation to the serpent race…"Don't go there". Why, when the evidence, ancient and modern, is so enormous?

---

Now, Sitchin is the scholar who not only knows Cuniform but also has examined and written about the physical evidence that he believes points to extraterrestrial involvement in the development of hominids to humans. He knows the difference between the mythical part of the creation stories and what the physical evidence points to. Yet, Icke thinks his level of scholarship supercedes Sitchin's? Ay yi yi. Again, I haven't read deeply into either of these guy's stuff, but Sitchin feels a whole lot more authentic and credible.

FWIW

Love,
Maria

Ah, Maria !

What an interesting extended conversation this is! I am NOT arguing for the truth of David Icke's beliefs ... only that those beliefs are not hateful, and don't undermine the value of his research. Of course I can only speak for myself - as can we all - and in this case it appears that you are using my inherent goodwill to invalidate my judgment. You're saying that just because I don't see the evil undertones to David Icke's presentation doesn't mean they aren't there ... because I have such an inherently benevolent view of people that I will only see the good in them and discount any possible evil. That's a rather left-handed compliment, I suppose!

Yes, it appears that David does believe that there are those among us who are "more reptilian" than others, and that this accounts for their ability to hold together in a massive conspiracy for such a long historical time. Sitchin's beliefs are more along the lines of my own intuitive thoughts, that if there are aliens in our genetic history, their influence is spread throughout the gene pool by this point in time and it would be silly to argue for an identifiable "race" of alien descendant among humans today. That's just my gut feeling, and to be honest I haven't given it a WHOLE lot of thought, because even though intriguing it doesn't seem to make much practical difference in today's world.

The reason the racist argument doesn't work for me with regard to David Icke's reptile alien ideas is very simple: racism is a hideous perversion of rationality because it ties a visible, obvious characteristic of people (their race) to a set of negative generalizations about the supposed qualities of that race ... and the danger of that practice is that it lends itself too readily to abuse by people of ill will who are eager to use it to put down others. (For example, Jews are money-grubbers who will try to screw you over in financial dealings, you're a jew, therefore I can't trust you in a business deal. Or, Blacks have genetically low intelligence and a propensity for criminal actions, you're a Black person, therefore you're probably not very smart and I certainly won't turn my back on you - or allow my daughter to marry you!) In all cases, the danger rests on attributing negative qualities that are NOT visible to a racial membership that IS visible, and using the latter to argue for the presence of the former. That is insidious, and I'm at least as opposed to it as you.

That doesn't work for the reptile hypothesis, however, because someone's supposed "alien-ness" is NOT visible (or even discoverable as far as we know). There's no way you could walk down the street and say, "hey, that guy over there is a reptile alien, and we all know the aliens are evil slavemasters so that guy is probably evil, let's get him!" In fact, it's exactly the opposite way around: instead of purported but invisible negative qualities being attributed to people who are visibly members of a given race, in David's presentation purported (but invisible) membership in the race of reptile aliens is attributed to people whose actions are visibly evil. That's a very different thing. There's no way for this belief to be abused to persecute innocent people, because there's no way to judge a person a reptile alien except by visible participation in evil actions (i.e., those aimed at dominating and controlling human beings through a New World Order conspiracy.)

David's presentation consists of documenting very thoroughly and factually the participation of certain people in such a conspiracy. No part of that presentation is dependent on the presumption of membership in an alien race. David NEVER says "George Bush sold America down the river, and we know that because he's a lizard alien." Rather he says George Bush sold us down the river by his corrupt dealings with Enron, the World Bank, the global drug and weapons trade and other criminal actions, and here is the proof: dates, documents, actions, results. Very factual, specific and well-documented evidence of actual corrupt actions. One NEED NOT accept his hypothesis that GB is a reptilian in order to see the evidence and judge its merits. THAT'S why I say the hypothesis is not central to his arguments (although it is clearly an important thing in his mind.) One can completely reject the alien hypothesis without in any way diminishing the strength of his research into the global conspiracy, or the facts and figures he brings to bear to unmask the hidden agendas behind many of the world's most powerful individuals. That presentation depends solely on factual research and logical inference that can be judged on its own merits without any reference to the alien hypothesis.

David believes that hypothesis is important because it "explains" how and why people could successfully carry out such a massive and efficient plan, over such a generation-spanning historical time frame, with such awful and inhumane ends. As I say, most people into conspiracy research yearn to have a label to put on "them," whether it be Illuminati, Communists, or lizards. Personally I don't think it matters whether they are some identifiable entity like an alien race or a secret society stretching back to prehistory, or whether they are just smart sociopaths who naturally seek each other out and collaborate on a mutual dream of global dictatorship. It's interesting to speculate, but really irrelevant to the facts of what is being done to manipulate the world community into a totalitarian social structure. That's why I'm willing to listen and learn from all quarters of this research, whther it comes from religious fundamentalists, left-wing or right-wing political zealots, or New Age believers in the whole thing as a battle of extraterrestrials using humans as pawns. It is the facts that are important to me, not the conceptual frame of reference of the researchers.

Poetic justice demands that I end by passing on the same kind of left-handed compliment to you as you gave to me: you are such a staunch humanitarian and defender of minorities that you are rushing valiantly to the defense of maligned races that may not even exist! And in so doing, you may be cutting yourself off from valuable information just because you don't like the mindset of the messenger.

And with that said, we can certainly agree to disagree about David Icke, and get on with examining what is happening behind the scenes in our World Community, and what we as spiritual and loving people can do to help steer it in a different direction.

Love you,
Greg

The passing of time
Is ticking dimly upon the screen
I can't see the lines
I used to think I could read between
How can moments go so slowly
...Brian Eno

Greg,

Whoa, whoa, whoa, missed me by a mile. You know how you were having the strange feeling that you were agreeing with me and I wasn't recognizing it? Well, I'm having the strange feeling that you are agreeing with me and you aren't recognizing it. So you're writing as if I said something else, and disagreeing with what I didn't say.

This part here that you said about me?

quote:

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Poetic justice demands that I end by passing on the same kind of left-handed compliment to you as you gave to me: you are such a staunch humanitarian and defender of minorities that you are rushing valiantly to the defense of maligned races that may not even exist!

---

Where do you get that? Not from my post. I said I'd run the buggers through, not defend them. And then, with the brand new, just published yesterday Newsweek article, I thought I traced a pretty clear connection of how an old idea, used against Jews centuries ago, is being re-injected into the public mind-set by people like Icke, who brags that the result of exposure of his web site is this:

quote:

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...And as a result of the waves The Biggest Secret has caused, and the new information, experiences, and accounts the book and this website have attracted from all over the world, there is a growing understanding that this apparently bizarre, crazy, story is actually true. That the world may indeed be controlled by reptilian bloodlines that hide behind apparently human form and it is this understanding which pulls together all the apparently unconnected information on this site into a very much connected whole....

---

He's not bragging that more and more people now understand how Bush sold us down the river with Enron and the World Bank, et al. He's bragging about how his reptiles-who-drink-baby's-blood theory has caught on and is being revived in the human mind.

Then, it shouldn't be much of a surprise to discover that this ancient blood libel USED AGAINST A REAL RACE -- THE JEWS, having been revived and spread through sites of "love and light" like this, is now, once again, being splashed on newspaper pages in the "civilized" world and being USED AGAINST A REAL RACE -- THE JEWS.

The Enron and World Bank type stuff -- that's the hard stuff to understand. I don't know about you, but I, quite frankly, have a number of very dear friends whom I love who can't even begin to follow what's going on with all that. I have the barest understanding myself, but I'm trying. But I have some friends who would definitely say it's beyond them and they don't even want to think about it. However, a concept like a part of the population being alien vampires is easy enough to understand. I would bet that out of the whole ball of wax that Icke presents in his various formats, THAT's what mostly sticks, most clearly, with most people.

And then a few little things start to play on that, and then pretty soon that old evil thought form is going to, like a homing pigeon, seek it's old-line origins and it is going to add to the already growing-again feeling of anti-semitism in this world.

I know this concerns you Greg, and I wish you would acknowledge it. I know you're concerned to make sure that what you present isn't anti-semitic. Well, me damn too.

I'm raising a red flag here, and you think I'm just bullfighting.

Here's what you say you want to do:

quote:

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get on with examining what is happening behind the scenes in our World Community, and what we as spiritual and loving people can do to help steer it in a different direction.

---

And I say, that is exactly what I'm doing, because one of the things that is happening behind the scenes in our world community is that the medieval blood libel thought-form is being pushed and promoted by the apparently rather effective David Icke, and, lo and behold, is being used again (regardless of Icke's intentions) against the Jewish people, as a whole. The columnist Newsweek points to who wrote that column saying Jews eat babies at Passover IS A DOCTOR!!! She is an educated woman. Old thought-forms die hard and they "home."

Intention of the sender of information IS important. But it's the RECEIVERS you have to pay attention to. Lots of people have learned that in very hard ways. If what's being received -- when you are promoting a communication, like Icke is -- is different and uglier and more dangerous than what you think you are trying to communicate -- you bear a heavier responsibility than you even thought, and if you're a good person (not you, Greg -- Icke) you really better think it out again. Maybe you've got a big old hole in your head or your theory, and you ought to look for it.

"What we as spiritual and loving people can do to help steer it (the world community) in a different direction," I submit, INCLUDES saying, "nope, we sure don't want to go the way of anti-semitism." That's what I'm saying. And I think you agree.

Maria

P.S. Please don't invalidate my heart and my deep knowings and my knowledge and experience in the world of publicly presented ideas by saying that I didn't draw a direct line that proves the doctor-columnist has directly encountered Icke's stuff. The spreading and acceptance of thoughts in wider consciousness is a complex but real phenomenon, and proving direct transmission who to who isn't the big deal part of it.

Can you feel this one instead of intellectualizing it, please?

Maria

Hi Maria,

I sure would if I could, and the last thing in the world I want to do is invalidate your feelings ... but the honest truth in both head and heart is that I can't see a connection between Icke's reptilian theories and any resurgence of anti-semitism. And you BET I'm concerned about Racism, especially that virulent kind, so I can promise you I would acknowledge it if I saw or felt it. I just don't, and that's the deep truth of my soul speaking.

That's not to say it isn't there, of course. My perceptions were formed by decades of studying this behind-the-scenes corruption idea, long before most other people had ever even heard an inkling of it, so when I discovered David Icke a couple of years ago, that is the part of him that I connected with and resonated to, and what formed my sense of what he is all about. And to tell the truth, one of the reasons I was happy to find him is that he wasn't anti-Semitic, as many in the conspiracy research field are (because of the major involvement of the Rotschilds), whose anti-semitism I had to suffer through to get to the solid facts behind their narrow-minded ideologies. But I suffered through them anyway, because I want to know the Truth, and to reject a claim that a certain banking house is involved in totalitarian scheming because they are Jewish is just as racist as the other way around. People are people, not the race or religion whose banner or skin they wear.

In any event, it is clear that you and I are coming from very different gut-level perceptions of what this character is all about, and it's unlikely that any amount of debate or analysis will bridge that gap, so I suggest we let it lie for a bit. In the meantime I will deeply ponder your perceptions and see if there is not something real there that I have missed because of my own history and already-formed assessment.

Please know, my dear friend, that I respect you enormously, and that I absolutely share your outrage against racism in all its forms -- which I consider to be among the most "evil" conceptions ever entertained by the mind of man. My father was a Jew, my wife the mother of my children was a Jew, my children are Jews, I have relatives who died in the holocaust .... of course I abhor anti-semitism. (I am genetically at least half Jewish, but not "legally" a Jew because it is through my father's line rather than my mothers.) If I saw anti-semitism or an excuse for it there, I would say so. I honestly don't, at this point.

So let me just step back for a bit, I don't want to butt heads with anyone I love and respect as much as you. Maybe we can come back to it later with different perspectives.

Love,
Greg

Watch for the ripples. Watch for the co-incidences. That one, in Newsweek, already popped up on my computer screen in the news section when I came on last night to write some of what I'd been wanting to write for a few days -- which was specifically about Icke's revival of the old blood libel in the "meet David" type articles. I didn't even get a chance to say "wait and see how this idea starts publicly manifesting itself." I came on to write it and there was already an example staring me in the face.

Wait and see. The guy gets no money from me.

Love you,
and I'm stunned,
Maria

hi Maria,this will just be a quick post,so forgive me if I missed anything addressed to me personally.

Icke is really only ONE in hundreds of thousands of people who have the knowledge about the "Illuminati". I first heard about all this from someone who hadnt even heard of Icke. He also hadnt heard of Sitchin,as due to his knowledge(30 year study) of comparative religions and early languages,including the cunieform,he worked things out himself.
I havent read any Icke books yet,I barely need to as most of the info has already been passed on to me. Because of personal knowledge,and involvement in the labour union movement, I can say he knows whats going on there,in relationship to the FTAA,and the groups that will eventually combine to be the New World Order(its actually already in place). Im using what he talks about,mainly in relationship to prophecy study,so I dont think the man an "idol", only a learned man.The only reason I suggested his site to begin with,is because he puts things altogether where others fear to go.

Icke has sell-out crowds,and his forums are actually cheap compared to others.Hes going to be 3 hours from me in a few days,and I wont be going..but I know theres been an extra "show" added.

You are in the same mode I was..and I TOTALLY understand your skepticism..especially being an ARIES!
And to that, I say "GO girl"!!. As you get more into seeing connections with all you are studying..you may get to a point you will need to lay down and take a breather for a couple of days and say GOD TAKE ME NOWWWW,as it will be far too overwhelming.It could come,when you hear a speech by someone..or something similar..but it will floor you. You will just say "WHAT THE...!!!"

Theres more to this world,than meets the eye.The good versus evil battle has been lost,but only for now.
"So much to learn,and such little time"
Onward Ho

Onward, ho! to you too.

I don't think it's lost, friend Aries, but I feel ya. I know what you mean.

I want to give the people going to the guy's show a sociological questionnaire -- one when they're going into the auditorium, one when they're coming out, and one six months later. Maybe Tinkerbell can do the statistical comparisons. A survey of attitudes...

I'll go quietly now.

Hugs,
Maria