This reptilian thing? I finally just caught up to what these reptile references have been about in threads like "Conspiracy Theory for the Non-Paranoid" and "Bill Cooper Lexi" and various threads where Aries has posted David Icke links -- or references to his ideas, like talking about political leaders with forked tongues.

I had simply assumed the earlier references either had to do directly with the reptilian-like brain stem in humans with it's fight-or-flight urges, or that the references were derived from that and were metaphorically referring to our non-spiritual, lower selves. And I assumed the references to a reptilian race seeking to enslave us were jokes, a la Godzilla and Reptar.

I know I am slow, but I honestly did not understand until now, when I finally clicked the link and went to the Icke site, and then remembered some things Aries said in other threads...I did not understand until now that anyone truly believed that the people wielding power in the world are shape-shifting descendants of reptile "gods," "space aliens," whatever.

I can hardly believe that I am in a position of feeling I need to take a position on this question, but as I'm hanging out here, and sometimes some of us comment on the ways in which others of us are hanging out here, I want to make it clear that while I like hanging out here, I do not, in any way, shape or form, subscribe to any sort of theory involving domination of the world by a race of hybrid reptile/humans.

If David Icke did not exist, the power brokers of the world would need to make him up. A blow-dried "TV presenter" sent to heal the world from domination by lizard people? Oh, my God in Heaven, deliver me now. What's next, a revival of the Symbionese Liberation Army so sensible people can all go, "Look, forget it. I'd rather work for the clampdown than work my ass off for freedom so that nutcase 'revolutionary' groups can mount their own armies and go off on any 'establishment' figures they can find."

You know, if the over-riding moral struggle in this world is really about the plan of an ancient reptilian-human hybrid family to dominate the rest of us poor schmucks, I'm just plain not playing along. I'm going to go hang out with the French existentialists and smoke Gitanes and look unattainable. At least I'll be giving the God within a little experience of a certain kind of fun, and satisfying my stupid human side with some really good coffee.

Except in some highly symbolic way, Reptar has very little to do with my hopes for understanding among the people of the world. I needed to say that.

Maria

I know what you mean WriteOn. Im not too sure about this whole reptilian thing,but I have to tell ya,I DO see the forked tounges in some speeches. Its very mind blowing.
Yes,perhaps a lot of this stuff from Icke is metaphorically speaking, but then again, maybe not. He is actually a strongly psychic individual,and they see things on "other planes".
Either way, I dont stress over it..to me the terms are parallel...Illuminati/Luciferian/Saturnian/evil/darkness/satan etc.
The "secret" being to release the S-erpent in all of us out of our clown chakra..hehe.

hey, Simone de Beauvoir de Catholique Cripple Creek gitane smoking reptile smiting freedom fighter....viva la strawberry fields forever!

love, an unavailabe gitane smoking wanna-be.

Why, Maria? Why did you need to say that?

You know, I too think it makes more sense to think of the "reptilian" idea as a metaphor rather than a literal fact (although none of us KNOWS the truth about any of this) ... but that doesn't mean I need to dismiss the life's work and research of someone who does think it's literal as nothing but the lunatic ravings of a "blow dried TV presenter."

You know, the point I tried to make in the opening post of that conspiracy thread was that people from all over the conceptual and ideological spectrum had done valuable research into the behind-the-scenes power structure of the world, and that what we as intelligent open-minded people who care about the freedom and spiritual evolution of humankind should do is to listen to the specific ideas that each of these people have to convey, rather than accepting or dismissing them as "package deals" because we agree or disagree with their stance on religion/politics/metaphysics or what-have-you. But it seems that's what we're all doing anyway.

Your basic background seems to be what we used to call "liberal" in simpler times. Do you know that the first people (in modern times) to promote the idea that there was a worldwide corporate/banking "conspiracy" to undermine our freedoms were the John Birchers? Yeah, that's right, the arch-enemies of liberalism. Today those same ideas are expressed by radical environmentalists, reactionary Christian fundamentalists, New Age believers that we are genetically-engineered pawns in a cosmic struggle with Pleiadians and Sirians, humanitarian liberals who think it's all about Republican war mongers, capitalist conservatives who think its all about Democratic creeping socialism, anti-Americans who think it's all about the selfishness and arrogance of the USA, militant racists who think its all about Jews and Zionism, militant nationalists who think it's all a Communist plot, and God knows who else. All uncovering the same basic facts about a real power structure in the world that really seeks to dominate and control the people.

You tell me, are we as a people who want to avoid domination by a corrupt group of power wielders, better served by looking at the information uncovered by all these groups, or by taking pot shots at each other's underlying premises?

Maria, how long did you spend on David Icke's site? Ten minutes? Half an hour? Yet it was enough for you to dismiss him personally and anything he might have to say, because he holds a premise that you find ridiculous? How many people do you suppose might click in to our website and immediately dismiss anything they might find here because we are just a bunch of "astrology freaks?" When Linda Goodman was fighting with her very life to have the true facts of Sally's disappearance brought to light -- with concrete factual evidence of a massive coverup by the officials -- how many people listened to what she had to say, and how many dismissed it immediately because "she's an astrologer, for God's sake!"

Sorry, but I'm very depressed that the most intelligent and perceptive people here find it more important to put down each others' "ridiculous" ideas than to seek answers to the problems we have in common, and to work within a framework of tolerant discussion that seeks to work toward human unity -- not conformity but unity as spiritual beings who would rather love than fight -- and seek common ground behind the differences in belief and temperament that we will always have, to work toward that unity.

I'm going to eat some worms.

Love,
Greg

Greg,

I understand your first part as any thing can have knowledge embedded in its presentation but you're last part I don't get the transition (other than we try to understand the concern.)

I am having one of those weird moments right now.
Aries commented about the things happening in Portland and that reminded me of the to missing girls and if their fate was to have short lives (Words and Numbers).
So I was thinking about the strangeness of a vanishing person and then a repeated act.

I remembered that a Cougar was sited in a neighborhood park near where I grew up.
This park used to be a big diary on top of a mountain (hill) and now there are hundreds of people there. The city where there two girls were from seemed so far from there by the roads but then I looked on a map and if a Cougar goes over the back hills and down towards the South West it may only be a few miles.
I looked up Cougars and I have a page here that says they can roam hundreds of miles.

So maybe none if this is related but I found this quote,
Which somehow relates to the girls, I think,

"It is the lion's claw, the lion's tooth and need, that has given the deer its beauty and speed and grace."

And I also found out that a law passed a few years back has really messed up some wildlife vs. hunting and the way the Wife Life department uses computer software (as if it were telling the truth without regards for the inputted data sample.)

This has some powerful implications.

Media could be sued for giving the wrong news.
The states could sue the fed for giving out wrong information.
All wild Life departments could be sewed for any animal attack or death.

Just some thohts but is that something like what you mean?

Darwin

Hi Aries,

Thanks for your reply and for talking about it a bit. After I read the web site, I was thinking, "Wow, I really don't understand Aries or see her clearly or what she's about." I already knew that about you and me -- not in a bad way, just in the fact that we don't know each other very well... So, your response gives me a bit more of a clue as to where you're coming from. I hope you won't mind my asking a personal question. Is your interest in Biblical prophecy coupled with Christian faith of any particular tradition, or a more individual theology? Or is the Bible more a resource for prophecy, uncoupled from any particular set of understandings or beliefs that would hang together as a "creed"? I only ask for the sake of understanding each other.

Maria

Snowpea, mon chere, "always, no, sometimes think it's me, but you know I know and it's a dream..." Lennon in the air, mon frere.

That's all the French I know.

snowpea wannabe

Gregory,

Jeez mon, don't go eating worms on my account. Why did I feel I needed to make clear that I do not subscribe to a theory that postulates that the Enemy in this world is a group of "people" who are -- pssssst, not really "human" in the same way that we are human?

Well, let's see...It's OK to annihilate the Jews because the Jews are sub-human...It's OK to enslave black Africans because they are of an inferior "race" of humans. These guys we're up against now, it'll never work to try to reach them, they aren't really human. My humanity is different from your humanity, my humanity's different from yours. Nananananana.

George W. Bush and Ariel Sharon and Osama bin Laden and the Rockefellers and the Sa'uds and you and me and Bobbie McGee at the base of it all are human beings, sharing all that is inherent in the human condition. Except for Bobbie McGee, who is a fictional character, sometimes a woman, sometimes a man, depending upon who's singing the song.

I'm not going there if "there" is painting a non-human face on a group of humans, buttressed with some sort of genetic argument. Same old thing in brand new drag. I've seen it. I stand against it.

I spent two and a half hours at Icke's web site, and I read all of the articles, all the way through, that were recommended on the page for people new to the site. I think there were five of them. And yes, Icke's presentation of himself and his ideas there did result in the critical thought in my mind that he is slick and shallow. For "getting up to speed" on what's going on in the world, he recommended three movies. What do you offer a guy like that in return? A cartoon version of the meaning of life?

There may be some good information on his site -- IF it's unspun by his come-from. I would just rather get information from sources who I think "get it" in a basic way that human is human is human.

I'm not throwing YOUR ideas out, Greg. But I'm not in favor of having Icke believe that he needs to heal the world from the ravages of reptilian, shape-shifting, not actually human beings on MY behalf. I would argue for people NOT to follow him.

Do you think I'm wrong? Or do you just think I have a big mouth and shouldn't have said anything?

Love,
Maria

P.S. Aries, I loved the "clown chakra." A most beneficial chakra to activate.

hi WriteOn..yes,my "ideas" are an individual theology,definitely NOT from a church. I will say however,that I did go when younger..first to a United,then a baptist,and a Pentecostal( aka: "the holy rollers",although,I do have to say..that sect does study bible prophecy,so I was into it at a young age) I have always known certain things Maria..
I decided,to "start over" when older, and forget most things that I was told by the churches,as was advised by a couple of pretty good teachers. I took up meditation and prayer,and once combined,a person is "shown" things.I also have dreams,that parallel some of the prophecies,and thats a big part of why Im "into" it. A friend Im working with on the study told me.."you read like me,with 90 percent insight,and 10 percent data absorption".
In order to understand how the world events relates to prophecy,we should really study also,the teachings of Jesus(whos name by the way was NOT Jesus,but Yeshua)This truly helps put things all together.But keep in mind even the bible,was "played with". Most christians dont know that.(you could do searches on the early Ecumenical Councils,and what they did durying the 4th,5th and 6th centuries,and later)
The time is coming,when we will start to see the true apostasy involved within the church,and I wont make an appology for that statement. Praise the lord,and pass the collection plate . I think I heard on the news today,that some 90 priests have been arrested on child sex charges. The pope is a false idol, and yada yada.

I do comparative prophecy Maria,native(namely Hopi), Nosty,CAYCE,Mayan,and bible compared to other bible prophecy,etc.You have to compare biblical within itself,old test/new test. After time,one starts seeing the patterns,and sequence of events,and understands the connections...and the pieces fall into place.The hard part is the timeline.

Theres a book being sent to me written by Icke,(The Biggest Secret)so I'll have to get back to you on that guy I love his quote tho...

"Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut,
that held its ground."

Maria,

Don't take me too seriously right now. Jupiter is squaring my Neptune while the Sun moves in to oppose it in a few days, on top of all the Pluto-Saturn energy, so I'm feeling some heaviness and disillusionment myself that I may be projecting on you. I guess all that I was really saying is that I'm weary of hearing people and ideas put down harshly. You made a really brilliant case for not "dehumanizing" anyone as we seek to understand what is out of whack in our world community, and how we might change it for the better -- but in the process dehumanized David Icke and dismissed him as two-dimensional salesman of lunatic ideas!

Now I don't have any particular brief for David Icke (except that I do think he's sincere and not a slick snake-oil salesman) ... I think some of his ideas are too far out to be credible, some are a stretch but intriguing food for thought, and some right on the money ... but I think that like you and me he wants to find truth and seek freedom and spread light. Yeah, he's got a bit of "promotional" energy about him, but do you know anyone who seeks to influence others through writing and speaking who doesn't? Nature of the biz, if you want to reach an audience you have to promote yourself one way or another, whether you're an author, a newspaper columnist, a media personality or a politician.

Having said that, I did appreciate your point that

quote:

---

I'm not going there if "there" is painting a non-human face on a group of humans, buttressed with some sort of genetic argument. Same old thing in brand new drag. I've seen it. I stand against it.

---

Of course you do, and so do I. That would be just another face for racism, wouldn't it? And that is the problem - race, religion, nationality, gender, it's all "us against them," in its thousand-and-one forms. But you see, that's exactly what intrigues me about this thought form, is that it doesn't create an "us and them" view of what's going on: if humans were genetically engineered or crossbred with reptilian beings at some point in prehistory, then the "evil seed" is within us all ... to use the old paraphrase, "we have met the enemy and it is us!" And this is true whether taken literally or metaphorically as in the reptilian brain-stem that we all undeniably possess, and which seems to function on a purely predatory/instinctual level that must be consciously over-ridden by our "higher" faculties. Or not.

How does one fight a war on war? How do we hate hate, without being haters? One point David makes frequently in his books, is that while the agents of corruption, whether you call them the Illuminati, the "old boys club" of global finance and power, or just the establishment, must certainly be identified and their agenda opposed, they themselves are not the enemy, they are merely being used and manipulated like the rest of us. The real "enemy" is the reptilian agenda that is controlling them ... just as it controls each of us when we attack each other (physically or psychologically), cheat our neighbors, or join with others "like" ourselves to gain advantage over others "not like" us.

What that thought-form gives us is a way to conceive that all human beings are on the same side ... which is the only possible way we will ever get to a state of consciousness where "us" means not my country or my religion or my race, but my fellow inhabitants of Earth. That's the catch-22 of this whole business, is that as long as some human beings are "the enemy," there is no way to get to a world where all human beings are our brothers and sisters.

Of course this need can also be met by considering the enemy to be "Satan," or the shadow self, or simply the purely selfish and materialistic "part" of us all that is one component of our biological heritage. Any of these viewpoints give us the ability to "love the sinner, hate the sin," where the powers of corruption are concerned, because the "sinners" are just like us ... differing only in the degree to which they are misled to misconceive themselves as isolated and alone, and their security dependent on controlling others.

And this is why I am always saying, don't bash this or that country, this or that political party, this or that person. Because when we do that, regardless of our righteousness, we are expressing the energy of attack and promoting the thought-form of us and them. And that won't get us where we need to go. It's the toughest balance in the world, exposing great corruption and deceit and doing something to change it, without abandoning our belief in the goodness and oneness of life. Jesus said it: love your enemy.

Anyway, if any of that makes sense, there it is. If not, just chalk it up to my Neptunian afflictions.

Proxy, I don't know for sure if any of what you said is what I meant, because I really didn't understand it ... unless perhaps your quote about the Lion's predatory nature giving the deer it's beauty, speed and grace, was a way of saying we all create each other and share in both the credit and blame for the world we experience. If so, then yeah.

Aries, "clown chakra" is a keeper! That's wonderful.

Love,
Greg

Thanks for sharing your ways, Aries. Many of those ways are common to me as well, although many of our views are probably strikingly different. I also have meaningful dreams and interests in different sacred ways. So did St. Patrick, btw. Where I live, it's still his day, so he popped to mind.

I left my bishop's hat somewhere, so I'll pass on the opportunity to respond to the bishop-baiting portion of your post. It didn't feel like you really had your heart in it anyway. That was just for yada yada's sake, right?

I will try to rescue Saturn out of that powers-of-darkness pile he was in in your first post, though. I have a Capricorn moon that cautions me not to be so blinded by insight as to lose sight of reason. And to be very aware of principles. I think those are Saturnine suggestions that serve in the cause of enlightenment.

Oh! And, not a criticism, just a reminder... I think maybe you were looking for the word "Ecclesiastical." (I don't even know if I spelled that right.) Anyway, Ecumenical is a different word, kind of a cool one, I think...

Maria

Well, Greg, you've read more of his writings than I have, but what I saw said that the reptile rulers controlled the bloodline in order to maintain enough reptilism. And I didn't see anything saying we're all part reptile.

And I disagree that my characterization of Icke dehumanized him. The traits I alleged are, like, definitively human. Animals aren't slick. "Demons" or whatever, aren't shallow. But don't take me too seriously, either. I'm not calling you out to duel.

I guess it's somewhat comforting and somewhat funny to me that you can take a theory that on the very face of it dehumanizes the entire "ruling class," or what have you, and turn it into an egalitarian philosophy that meshes with your belief that love is the answer. Either that, or you're pulling my leg.

Well, look at that. Another day gone by and we STILL haven't solved the problem of evil. What's a kid to do?

Love & light & hope and I'll try not to be harsh,
Maria

Gosh! Anything's possible!

Hopefully without seeming to appear too gullible, I like to keep an open mind about any new information I receive...no matter how incredible it may seem....but that's just me....

Reptiles?? Maybe...maybe not...who really knows for sure???

I'll bet George Washington might have scoffed at the idea of people being transported from European soil to American soil at the speed with which a Concord will get them there..not to mention soaring thru the air, at that speed......granted, it was in the future when he was alive, but the "possibility" was there....*sigh*...

I'm inclined to think that truth is stranger than fiction...but that's just me and my two cents....

Luv,
Rainbow~

Ps...I've heard of people who believe the moon landing was "staged." How is that for skepticism?.......(but then, like Linda...I believe in elves and faeries, and the little people..*sigh*)

Heh, heh, no Maria, not pulling your leg. That actually IS what I think of Icke's alien idea.

Now, if he were saying "Let's get these alien scum!" that would be a different story entirely, but that's not what he's saying at all. He is just tying his own really vast research into the history of an apparently continuous conspiracy that stretches back AT LEAST hundreds and possibly thousands of years, (which is quite amazing when you think about it), with the ideas first expounded by Sitchin concerning the possible extraterrestrial origin of mankind and the meaning of some of our most ancient myths and sacred stories. I think it's an intriguing idea whether there's a shred of truth to it or not ... and I've read enough about this thought-form from different sources before even discovering David Icke to know that at least some of the really old-line "ruling class" apparently believe something along these lines about their own "divine right to rule" ... so to me it's one more line of human thought to investigate, to try to understand how we evolved into the curious creatures we are today (socially/politically as well as biologically).

But to be honest, the whole reptile alien thing is neither my main interest in David's research, nor the main thrust of his own message. To me, he is mainly a very thorough researcher who has pulled together what has been known and written about the "hidden ruling class" for centuries, together with his own independent research ... all very responsibly documented ... as a key resource to understand on a mundane physical-plane level the actual shape of the current plot to steer the world toward a coercive New World Order: the people, the organizations, their specific actions and statements and policies, and the actual impact they've had on unfolding world events especially in the last 200 years.

And no, I didn't think you dehumanized him in the sense of claiming he's not a human being, but in the same sense it is said we tend to dehumanize or demonize our enemies in war: turning them into two-dimensional caricatures of human beings with only the pejoritive "labels" we have for them visible, like "evil," "fanatic," and so on. The kind of thinking that makes them easy to dismiss as "not like us" and allows otherwise rational people to say things like "you can't reason with these kinds of fanatics, the only thing to do is kill them all."

In my experience, David Icke is one of the few serious conspiracy researchers who ISN'T dominated by hate and anger, who frequently reminds his readers that even the most culpable conspirators are just victims of mental programming like ourselves, and that the way to "defeat" them is through love, and our power to CHOOSE to follow values based on loving cooperation rather than allowing ourselves to be divided into perpetually hostile and separated armed camps. To me, that's a refreshing outlook in a field dominated by paranoia and victim mentality.

But I'm glad you aren't calling me out to a duel, my sword is out for repairs anyway.

Love and lizards,
Greg

Yeah, but Rainbow...maybe the witches burned at the stakes weren't really human either...Did they float? Wasn't that a test?

For me it's like this: on one hand are my moral principles and the lessons of history that say that everytime we brand a group inhuman we end up doing something awful and that the only sound way to approach people is as people. And on the other hand I have the opportunity (temptation?) to engage in fearful speculation about the very "nature" of some of the people of the earth.

Nature arguments are old hat. Of course that black guy is going to rape our daughters. And that wild Indian is going to scalp our wives. It's in their very nature. We better kill them first.

Just because the people targeted by this thinking now are people in power doesn't make it right. In terms of seeing things clearly and deciding on right courses of action to take, I'll choose the weight of moral principles and lessons of history over fearful speculation. And I doubt that they'll point to the same courses of action. That's why I keep coming back to make the point.

If Greg can make use of information gathered by people caught up in fearful speculation, as long as the information is valid, OK, I can see how that could help. But I don't want to give the Klan or the white supremacist survivalists OR the guy who thinks political leaders are lizards, or anyone else who looks at their fellow humans as less human than themselves, any support of any kind in the process.

Maria

Hi Maria.....hey gal...please don't feel as tho you have to explain to me, why you feel the way you do, about Icke and the reptiles.....You have a right to your opinions, and I respect that....but since I had one too, I thought I'd express mine.....so...that's cool..

Now...to answer your question. I've never heard of a witch being anything but human...I don't think any claims were ever made otherwise...only that they had powers and were evil...the ones that were dunked, stoned and burned, anyway....or that was the "narrow" thinking of those hysterical mobs, who put them to death...*sigh*...

Okay, this is NOT because I believe in the reptiles (even tho I am open to the idea), but I'm gonna change the subject here totally, Okay?....*sigh*...you say you are a Christian (and I guess I might be too, if believing that Christ was divine, makes one a Christian).... so ....tell me....in the Bible, it says that a "snake"(reptile), talked with Eve.....Do you really believe that? Was there actually a reptile conversing with the human woman? Or is that myth? And if myths starts that early in the Bible, how much more of what's in the Bibleare we supposed to believe? Just wondering what you take is, on that....

Now again, this is not in defense of David Icke, cuz I'm not all that familiar with him, and his writings, but I have read some of his stuff, and from what I understand, it doesn't appear that he's "dehumanizing" that powerful group, to put them in a catagory, that doesn't measure up (i.e. minorities, Jews, blacks, Indians etc) but to reveal something about what he believes to be their origins....and I think the only reason they might not measure up, is because of their lust for power and control, and their plan to enslave the common person, rather than because they look like frogs, or whatever..... You say that everytime we brand a group inhuman, we wind up doing something awful...*sigh* I don't think it's David's plan to do "something awful." Like Greg, and most of us here, he seems to think that love is the answer....

As I said, I'm not all that familiar with David's writings, so I'm no expert on all his beliefs, but from what I've read so far, I've yet to see any mention of lynching them, scalping them, putting them in camps and ovens, burning crosses on their lawns etc...he just seems to want to wake up people who don't have any inkling about the plans of the illuminati and frog people...

Geese, I hope I'm making sense to you....anyway...here in America, we still have the freedom of speech (so far), so let's make hay while the sun shines....

Luv,
Rainbow~

"Was there actually a reptile conversing with the human woman? Or is that myth? "

hehe Rainbow~EXCELLENT~You're on the ball for this time of the day! I was waiting for that one from SOMEONE~You get the cookie
luv ya

hi Maria,yes,the word is Ecumenical councils..(all christians will have their eyes opened when checking into it)this is a link I read a few years ago,but it looks like its been added to..
http://www.fromthestars.com/page48.html

Its interesting to note,that Nostradamus was of the kabbalistic faith,but his family had to convert to Catholicism out of fear for their lives. Its thought he secretly kept his faith..Just another example of dark mixed with light even in the church.

Excellent post Rainbow~

Your words flow with the essence of Linda
Loving, compassionate, gentle and strong combined with the dedication to find the Truth.

Thank-you!

Follow Your Heart
Pat

Why, thank you Pat....what a nice thing to say....

Luv,
Rainbow~

You are most welcome

Follow Your Heart
Pat

Rainbow, I love you, gal. The following rant is NOT directed to you, or Aries or Gregory or Pat...although I hope you'll all read it and See me, Hear me, Touch me, Feel me, lol. It's directed at something that's been bothering me in the world for long enough for me to need to say something...

Here's what I'll do. I'll answer the question and I'll answer it in a way that I hope will reveal something of a process that can be undertaken in our wonderings. Arrogant of me, I know. Maybe I'm implying that people don't know how to think, and that's a damn nasty thing to say about my brothers and sisters, some of whom may well be better thinkers than I am...

But...

We are not alone. We are the most overwhelmed people ever in terms of the amount of knowledge available to us that we don't have the time and mental calmness to look into. Everything is connected, and I dot-to-dot constantly for fun, breezy Neato glimpses and perspectives, but it's not enough. There are deeper currents where much of the lessons of the connectedness are hiding.

In Biblical scholars and interpreters, I look for the ones who are steeped enough in the (very detailed, maybe even "plain and boring") knowledge of the people who wrote the accounts, and who are also steeped enough in the revelation (not speaking here of the book of Revelation) but the revelation of God in our midst to understand the great Spirit that seeks to communicate with us...scholars who have enough of those things to apprehend in a Whole way, not a piece by piece way, what the subject matter is about. Scholars who have knowledge of the Jewish-Christian-Islamic understandings of those scriptures and who also have knowledge how that family of religions fits in the overall development of the idea of the holy in other civilizations simultaneously.

Then I steep myself in their presentation of the knowledge. Then I take the question into my own innermost sanctum, my place of revelation, my Jerusalem within.

And then I come here and say, well now, what shall I say? Who, among us, really has any bit of a care to know where I've arrived with the question and who is just playing with me and who is just waiting to pounce and who to simply dismiss my thoughts because I dared to Select an interpretation that withstands what intellectual rigor I can bring to it and is in integrity with my principles?

It's a problem of our age...this attitude that says we can't know anything or we already know what all the previous thinkers said and all they said is inadequate. News flash! The intellectuals and holy people that came before us DID combine intuition, inspiration, and the ability to see into the heart of things WITH their intellectual reason. We are not the first people to see the value of following the heart and recognizing the value of the "third eye."

So many of these questions have been adequately, even brilliantly, asked and answered before we ever thought to ask them.

I find it absolutely astonishing, kind of giggly funny and excrutiatingly sad that on a spiritual discussion forum with the potential to bring together lots of thoughts from lots of cultures and perspectives and individual people, with a potential to lay some foundation for love and understanding, that on such a forum there appears to be absolutely no interest whatsoever in finding a basis of guiding principles such as affirming the underlying humanity of all people.

That's scary. That's blow-my-mind scary.

I'll be back to present my thinking on creation mythology, because I said I would. But my family needs me now.

Maria

quote:

---

that on such a forum there appears to be absolutely no interest whatsoever in finding a basis of guiding principles such as affirming the underlying humanity of all people.

---

???

Hmm ... guess I'll have to wait for part two of your post to see where you're going ... I kinda thought that's what we were working toward here ...

Love and bated breath,
Greg

HI, I have been trying to follow this for a couple of days, and I just wanted to ask if it is correct to assume, that the serpent that talked to EVE, actually represents the Kundalini serpent (in the spinal column) awakening and opening EVE'S Third Eye. Hence giving her Knowledge.? How many people see it this way? So I dont think that a two part conversation took place there She was not manipulated by a reptile in that sense......

Its all relative from the point of observation......

bye from Vanessa

This was a double post, so Im going to take the opportunity to say that, not many, but some people have reminded me of a reptile, there Ive said it.....Salamander Eyes maybe.
not sure what it is, bye, V.

hi Crazy..thats sort of how I personally see it too.
But am still investigating the issue
Serpent within, and without.
As above, so below.

Maria, please do post about the Creation Myths..its an important and interesting topic!Ive also studied a few..do you see the "common threads" in them?

Hi Maria.. ....Lady, I love you too, and I truly hope you're not upset...but in your last post...you seemed a little "rattled!"....and you know what? I've been thinking about it, and have come to the conclusion that it wasn't really fair of me to ask that goofy snake question, anyway.....I'm sorry that I did ...cuz lord knows, there must be a million different answers....and I'm not even sure what prompted me to ask...except maybe cuz a snake is a reptile...*sigh*......but don't feel you have to answer that question...you could ask it of me, and I'm not sure what I'd tell you.......but *sigh*, for you to start feeling excrutiatingly sad .....and be mind blowingly scared... tells me that somebody, or some of us, disappointed you in some way....I'm sorry....so please forget about Eve and the snake...(maybe he was a phallic symbol )

Anyway, I would erase that question if I could, but it's already out there...so I'll just say it's not really necessary for you to do any in depth pondering about an answer...at least it's not necessary as far as I'm concerned...*sigh*...it was just a silly, impulsive thing for me to do...(my progressed Sun is in Aries)....Okay?

Luv,
Rainbow~

HI Aries me too,

Rainbow I know it pains you, but it helped me to answer my question on that same thing.
Somehow I thought Rainbow, that you would take my comment the wrong way.. I still think it was very relevant

Bye from Daze

Hi Daze, Nice to see you. Thanks for the PM. I'm being very slow today. Rainbow was trying to ease my sadness, not criticizing you, hon.

Thanks for the encouragement, Rainbow and Aries and Greg. It's OK, Rainbow. Thanks for saying that, though. I feel your empathy. And Aries, thanks for repackaging it as just an interesting topic.

Maybe I'm just feeling like Greg was feeling the other day...or like Terri was feeling back when she said she was losing her optimism. I have Pluto in a transiting trine with my first house Uranus. I'm supposed to be tossing old thoughts aide, without sadness, and zooming ahead to new ideas.

But I find myself digging in my heels and saying, "Not without a declaration first that, 'We find these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights.' " That or a similar sentiment from another sphere -- without making an exception for "the enemy." But I guess I came at it badly, approaching it not from the straight-ahead approach but in opposition to a theory some people seem to be interested in.

I do get it about salamander eyes and forked tongues. But I disagree strongly that evil (call it what you will) is genetically part of any bloodline in our world. I don't see how that could be theologically, morally or scientifically sound.

But I've probably said that about 99 ways, and nobody else seems to want to be part of the "We" of the self-evident truths, so I guess it's time to give that one time. After all, we've got time. We aren't marching off in crusade tomorrow.

Sorry, there'll be nothing eye-popping in my creation musings, heh. But it might be a bit interesting to some. Rainbow, I spent several hours last night, doing the immersing and pondering, and then when I came here earlier today I just couldn't find either the oomph or the time to start culling out the highlights and writing them up. I'm still feeling really lackadaisical now, but not quite as sad. Maybe the idea of, underneath it all, people being people will ultimately prevail, even in this tough crowd.

At some point, probably tonight, I'll write something mediocre here for you all.

Maria

Very strange, Maria ... I'm experiencing that I keep agreeing with you, and you keep coming back saying "nobody agrees with me."

It almost feels like "I agree that no one is genetically evil" isn't enough unless it's accompanied by "and I condemn David Icke!" That may be way off base, but I don't get it otherwise. I know you know that's where I'm coming from, because I must have said a hundred times on different threads "don't bash this or that country/race/religion," "we are all human beings who want to be happy and avoid suffering," "even the corrupt dominators are just victims of the illusion of separation," and so on and so on. And surely I've defended the Declaration of Independence and Constitution vocally enough that it should be self evident that I hold those truths to be self-evident! So ... ? ... the only thing I can come up with is that you must have gotten a strong enough sense of racism from what you read on David's website that not condemning him overrides anything else I might say about this. Am I off base here?

If so, it's an unfortunate sticking point, because I'm not any kind of big defender of David Icke at all, I've just read a few of his books and found them interesting and well-researched for the most part. But I do not see that racist mindset that you see. To the contrary, I think he's very sensitive to the issue and goes out of his way to clarify that he's NOT condemning anyone because of bloodline.

quote:

---

I would emphasise also before I end here that I am exposing certain reptilian GROUPS behind the Illuminati, not the reptilian genetic stream in general. ... Indeed, every one of us has a body with much reptilian genetics, including part of the brain called the R-complex, the reptilian brain.

---

The whole reptilian theory is very complex, and there are many versions of it, but the general outline as I understand it is that human beings - all human beings - are the result of genetic manipulation by an alien species who visited here long ago, intending to make us "slaves." Now according to the story, the leaders of this conspiracy set up "kings" who have sought to pass down power through the ages, and one of the elements of their "right to rule" is a "pure bloodline" from the original reptilian "creators." But that's THEIR belief. And we DO know that in point of fact throughout human history, a strong belief in "royal bloodlines" IS the main rationale that the ruling class have used to justify their "divine right to rule. We also know the Nazis strongly believed that they were "divinely ordained" as a race to rule, etcetera, etcetera. This genetic destiny idea has played a BIG role in the power struggles of mankind through the ages, and it doesn't really make sense to fail to examine the idea because we don't like it. Of COURSE we don't like it, it's inimical to everything we value about freedom, humanism, and spirituality. But it DOES exist, and has been a powerful force in the world. That's what this idea is about: if some people believe that they are the inheritors of the "ownership" of humanity by virtue of their "pure descent" from reptilian beings, why would I NOT want to know that?

Anyway, if the whole thought form is too bizarre to interest you, or you don't like David Icke's style and manner of presentation, that's cool ... I don't really see that as a central point of discussion, and I haven't seen anybody "pushing" that point of view anyway. But it's not about finding a new racial label for "the enemy," and it's certainly not about going on a reptile witch-hunt.

I can only speak for myself, but I definitely am part of the "We" of the self-evident truths!

Love,
Greg

*sigh*

OK, Greg, you're coming through clearer now. See, I thought you were taking his ideas and instead of following them to their logical conclusions you were pulling them through a rationalizing and reshaping process to make them more palatable, and thereby fraudulently stripping the ideas of their moral offensiveness. Now that IS a nasty thing to think about one of my favorite people -- you. But I was cutting you a ton of slack too, because I definitely did not think you were working an intentional fraud for any sort of malevolent reasons. I just thought you were being entirely too generous to Icke, because of the very generous nature of your heart. And I thought you were choosing open-mindedness as an absolute value. As in, "Who cares if the ideas we consider are offensive to basic moral understandings? We must open our minds to their lessons anyway."

OK, but now you're saying (maybe re-iterating) that I don't understand the complexity of the reptile theory and that Icke is not condemning anyone by bloodline. But the quote you offer, re: reptilian groups behind the illuminati -- just makes my ears prick up and my teeth set on edge all over again. Do I want you to condemn David Icke? I guess I want you to continue including the caveats every time you reference those ideas. Hey, you asked. I guess I want David Icke to sit down and really honestly face the moral implications of a hybrid-critter theory (some more hybrid than others -- you can't escape that implication, logically) and ask himself whether being able to bill himself as the most controversial speaker of our time is too important to him.

I don't know which of today's power-hungry, money-hungry masters of war do think they have a divine right (or a Yale-given right) or a hereditary right to rule. I certainly will allow as how some probably do hold that thought somewhere in their psyches. But THEY aren't saying that idea came there from their Master Race ancestors. You're telling me that Icke and others believe that idea came to those people from their Master Race ancestors. So it's Icke and his cohorts postulating the actual, historical existence of a Master Race. Yeah, heck, I guess I'm back to where I don't understand how you don't hear the alarm bells I'm hearing.

Love and angst,
Maria

Hi again Maria...I'm going to toss something else out at you....I realize you're agitated, and I'm not doing this to keep that going, but I'd just kinda like your opinion about something else, since you feel so strongly about the reptilian thing.....*sigh*....

A lot of Native Americans believe that at certain times...some of them are able to turn into animals....shape shifting, I think it's called...they truly believe this....I know my dad did...he used to tell us stories about it...does that idea offend you? I'm not meaning to offend you...I'd just like your opinion...thanks for considering it...

Luv,
Rainbow~

Okay, we may be getting somewhere here.

To make the moral implications clearer, let's look at the Nazi experience rather than the reptile idea, because that's something the world has lived through, and regardless of moral implications we can all agree on certain facts, like for example, that there IS a Jewish (semitic) bloodline in the world, and there IS an Aryan bloodline (although it's certainly arguable about how genetically "pure" an expression of any racial/genetic line any contemporary people may be.) It would certainly be a mistake to stigmatize discussion of the role racial beliefs had in the making and unfolding of the Nazi agenda, because without that information, the holocaust is incomprehensible. What we want to avoid is the implication that any beliefs about racial superiority are TRUE, and more important, to repudiate the idea that whatever racial differences do exist (and certainly there are some, otherwise races would be indistinguishable) imply greater or lesser "rights" or basic human standing. THAT idea, and nowhere else, is where the evil of racism resides. So let's stipulate at the beginning that regardless of WHAT the "facts" might be about reptile aliens, that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal." And let's broaden the "all men" part to include not only women and children but also reptile aliens and silicon-based aliens and any other intelligent life-forms the Universe may contain. Let's re-phrase it to say "all sentient beings are created equal, and are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights that are the same for all." Okay?

Okay. Now, your point - "I certainly will allow as how some probably do hold that thought [of the divine right to rule] somewhere in their psyches. But THEY aren't saying that idea came there from their Master Race ancestors. So it's Icke and his cohorts postulating the actual, historical existence of a Master Race."

Well first of all, some of them ARE saying that (although not widely or publicly). Cathy O'Brien, the former CIA mind-control slave, details in her book a number of rituals and other experiences she was subjected to in which certain very prominent figures in the power structure explicitly told her that they were descendants of an alien master race, and even demonstrated to her their "shape-shifting" from human to lizard-like form and back again!

Now Cathy's take on this is very different from David Icke's: she believes (now that she has been de-programmed) that these ideas are used to instill fear as part of the mind-control technology - that the shape-shifting and lizard alien stories are deliberately fearful stories (enhanced by stage-magic tricks) designed to make their subjects more compliant. She also states the same thing about Satanic rituals to which she and other mind-control victims were subjected (including gruesome blood sacrifice and terribly disturbing sexual rituals) ... that these thought-forms and rituals are used for their shock and intimidation value, and that the controllers are neither reptile aliens nor Satanists, but that they use these ideas to confuse and intimidate those they would control. This idea actually makes a lot of practical sense to me, knowing how trauma-based mind control works, but again I have no real first hand knowledge of the truth.

We know that the whole history of humans seeking domination over one another is the history of the belief in the superiority of some over others ... not just in the obvious cases like Nazism, but in ALL cases. What else IS the assumption of dominant power other than the assertion that the rulers are "better" than the ruled and have the RIGHT to rule and dominate? That's what "royalty" is all about through the entire history of the world. That's what the entire culture of conquest and domination has ALWAYS been based on. When Columbus and his crew raped and enslaved the natives upon landing in the New World, it was because he was a member of the "superior" white European race/culture and the natives were less-than-human "savages," right? Same thing with the Spansich Conquistadors in South America and the Dutch and English slave traders in Africa. Same thing with the westward expansion of the United States - it was a matter of killing or repressing the "savages" to make way for noble civilization, right? Conquest - all conquest - is based on the assumption of the racial, class, or cultural superiority of the conquerors, ALWAYS.

Does it really matter what the rationale for the superiority is? Whether it's because God singled out their ancestors to rule (as He supposedly did with the Merovingian Kings and the Hapsburgs) or because their race is "genetically superior" or because their cultural accomplishments are "proof" that they are superior to the unwashed primitives they conquer, or because their nation has a "manifest destiny" that is aligned with Divine will, or whatever ... it's ALL about the superiority of "us" over "them," which gives "us" the right to treat "them" as subhuman.

Do you really suppose it's any different today? That there is a cohesive generation-spanning conspiracy to control the world, spread by various secret and occult organizations along with various political and economic organizations and "good old boys" networks in todays world, is so well documented that (in my mind, at least) it is FACT. I am interested in the ideology behind that conspiracy, and the reptilian hypothesis is one possible way of understanding it. Certainly it is true that these people think that the "illuminated," "enlightened" ones have the right to rule, and they DO say that openly. Laws in the proposed World Government currently being promoted under the mantle of the U.N. -- and in the current European COmmunity today, its intended precursor -- are NOT passed by democratic vote, but by administrative decision of "enlightened" public servants, those who are "best able to choose wisely on behalf of all humanity." Come on, who's kidding who?!

To me, even if the reptilian hypothesis were 100% factually accurate, and the ruling class ARE direct descendants of ancient alien slave-masters, it still would not give them the right to rule, nor anyone else the right to single out reptile descendants for persecution. WE ARE ALL CREATED EQUAL. That is what this struggle is all about, and that is the needed shift in consciousness that will allow us to live in peace and harmony rather than as dominators and dominated.

That doesn't mean that I don't want to know what's in the minds of these people, any more than I would have wanted to know about the thought-form of the "final solution to the Jewish problem" before it was publicly revealed or implemented. Would the desire to understand the master race ideas of the Nazis have raised alarm bells in you? There IS a "real" Aryan race behind these ideas - or at least a racial "root" - but being aware of