from www.msn.com

April 3 — Scores of Palestinian gunmen were hiding inside one of Christianity's holiest shrines — Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity — on Wednesday, seeking refuge from Israeli troops, helicopters and tanks that invaded the city as part of an offensive aimed at crushing Palestinian militias in the West Bank. Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, meanwhile, remained under siege in nearby Ramallah, where he vowed to die a martyr rather than accept an Israeli offer of exile in a foreign country.

How can we help? What can be done? It's heartbreaking to see all this unfold and see how people on both sides are clearly choosing violence over peace.

Love,
Terri

This is a letter sent to all Episcopal Bishops....from Bishop Riah in Jerusalem.

The Episcopal church position is that the land must be shared fairly...that Israel must withdraw...and Palestine must be recognized and freed...and get their land back...be given a chance to live their lives.

Episcopal Bishops and higher ups...are starting to loudly disagree with the USA's position...and I heartily agree.

Here is the letter:----- Original Message ----- From: ..... Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 15:24 Subject: Bishop
Riah's Easter message from Jerusalem April 2, 2002
2002-084 Bishop Riah's Easter message from Jerusalem Dear Friends, Salaam
and grace in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and blessed greetings from
Jerusalem, It is Easter Day, the day of Resurrection. However, this year's
celebration of Christ's new life is remembered in the middle of total chaos,
and persistent suffering of a lonely people, who has long been fighting for
their freedom and dignity. The services in the cathedral this morning took
place with half the number of people we normally have due to closures and
checkpoints. This year, the Easter story has been as vivid and clear as
never before. The biblical drama continues; the actors change, but the plot
remains the same. We have been witnessing the many Judas Iscariots, who
continue to betray the Truth, and the many Pilates, who wash their hands, to
defend their own safety. We weep before those who continue to watch the
cross from afar, as if the scene means nothing to them.

After the services, I left with clergy and heads of churches towards
Ramallah on a mission of peace and justice, trying to break down the siege
inflicted on the city and its people, and to visit President Arafat. Apart
of the Anglican clergy with me, we had the Roman Catholic Patriarch and his
clergy, the Greek Catholic Archimandrite, and representative of the
Armenian, Lutheran, Coptic, and Franciscan Bishops and clergy. We were 15
people altogether. We gathered at St. George's Cathedral and left in the
afternoon hours towards the city of Ramallah.

Prior to our departure from the cathedral, I spoke several times with the
Deputy Foreign Minister of Israel, Rabbi Melcheor, who was part of the
Alexandria Declaration, initiated by the Archbishop of Canterbury, as we
committed ourselves to work for peace and justice as religious leaders. We
asked for his help and intervention to mediate with the authorities, and
allow us to enter into Ramallah; I have even challenged him to come with us,
expressing readiness to meet with Sharon as well.
But all our three-hour-endeavor to enter the city came to an empty hole. We
felt that the authorities do not want the church to provide a channel for
peace and reconciliation, to bring an end to all the suffering and pain of
the peoples of this land.
As we were waiting, some settlers were passing by, some cried at us with the
words: "Go to hell." Others spitted at us. We were forced to return back to
Jerusalem.

Ramallah has been declared a war zone, nobody allowed in or out. The
reports that are coming from the city are incredibly horrendous. Our people
could not attend church on Sunday. George Kopti, our priest in charge of
the community, said his prayers with the immediate neighbours, who are
living in the church close. He cannot walk out of his house, like everybody
else, for fear of being shot dead. He reported that people were executed in
the neighbouring Islamic Club with cold blood. There is lack of food and
water supplies in the houses. President Arafat's compound has run out of
water, too. Ambulances have not been allowed to reach to the injured, and
one of the hospitals has been invaded. The soldiers are threatening to blow
it up, 10 minutes after they leave the building; and all this comes with the
ongoing reports of lack of blood in the hospitals for the injured, a matter
that is causing the death of many others; 25 dead Palestinians are still
kept in one of the hospitals, while the Israelis are not allowing their
burial. The hospitals report that there is no more space to keep more
bodies. Some of those bodies have been recognized, others have not been
recognized due to the extreme degree of torture. The church is planning
tomorrow to donate blood here in the cathedral through one of the
ambulances, the least we can do in our support for the community in
Ramallah.

Stephanie Koury, an American citizen, lives and works in Ramallah as the
legal adviser on settlements for the Palestinian Negotiating team. She
reported to me personally that on Saturday, March 30 at 1:45pm, 10 Israeli
soldiers invaded her house, and threatened to kill her cat. They ate her
fruits on the table, even when she told them that that was the only food
left for her. One of the soldiers lay down and asked her to give him a
massage, an act of total humiliation, if not a war crime.
She witnessed them holding an 18-19 year old young man, the son of her
neighbour, forcing him on his knees, and pointing the gun at his head. When
they left her house after three hours of sheer humiliation, they ran over
her car with their tanks.

Israeli troops have surrounded Bethlehem and its area, and the people there
are preparing for another Israeli invasion. All this comes to us, and to
our people at a time when we remember and celebrate the life of God who
makes the suffering and the death of these people his own. We remember how
they flogged him, how they spitted on him, and how they crucified him. It
all becomes clear how though we believe in the resurrection, we also believe
that the resurrection does not cancel out the crucifixion. We are burdened
with all this suffering, and total hopelessness. To whom do we turn to? We
have no one to turn to except to him , who suffers, and dies with us, Jesus
Christ our Lord. For he alone can raise us up.

Know that this comes with my prayers, and best wishes,

In Christ,
+Riah Abu El-Assal Episcopal/Anglican Bishop Diocese of Jerusalem and the
Middle East

Peace.....Love Dani

I think if we are to continue believing in spiritual astrology.and evolution,we have to admit its all for a reason...and how we utilize the energies,will ensure our own spiritual and karmic future.

And the realm of the most high is within

I'm the most high

No, I'm the most high

Yeah, Dude, you must be high

...

What if the third building of the Temple, to which some prophecy scholars look, isn't done by the Israelis, who ceded the Temple Mount to the Palestinians as part of their territory some time ago...

and isn't done by the Palestinians, even though they apparently are hollowing out a side of the Mount for a mosque, which some might figuratively see as a rebuilding...

and neither would it be done by Christians, because the Christian call in this time, in this conflict, seems clearly not to seek to be king of the mountain, but to walk unarmed into the fray saying, "Peace, brother, peace"...

What if the rebuilding of the Temple is something like the three-sided pyramid Enigmatic Soul posted about in Star Chat? Let's just say figuratively, for now, because everyone from all three faiths would howl against a pyramid atop the Temple Mount. So, at first, at least, a metaphoric pyramid, made of the three distinct "sides" involved. The transcendent 3 ... Linda's three-legged-stool idea ... and the three branches of Abrahamic faith, abiding together in mutual support ... each keeping its own identity and its ability to reflect the One to the world ... the One whom the top of each side points to, who is "the God of Abraham." Each side of the pyramid helping to hold the other two up, each side upheld by the other two. All that's needed is the base.

I'm praying for the base.

I don't mean to ignore other world religions. Maybe they can influence formation of the base. But the struggle for the Holy Land certainly didn't start with the modern establishment of the State of Israel. It's a thousands-of-years-long family feud. One father, two mothers, two sons, Ishmael and Isaac, and we're off and running now ... the common ancestral soap opera of the mighty nations descended from Ishmael and Isaac.

I think I caught the tail of a spiral. Think I'll grab that idea and write with it a while and see if I can't find somewhere to submit it. I am such a mouthy broad.

Maria

Please do pursue this idea, Maria, I think it's fascinating. And I wouldn't worry overmuch about disenfranchising the other great religions of the world ... my own guess is that these also sprang from a common source that predates recorded history. But there seems little doubt that the emergence of the three Abrahamic religions most closely parallels the introduction of the modern "city-state" form of social organization, which is surely the root of all the current world issues concerning war, nationalism, global dominance, and so on. Surely a worthwhile spiral to follow!

Love,
Greg

I would like to ask you all though, pragmatically speaking, do you think this is a religious war or a political one. One of survival.

All I know, having spent quite some time in Israel and Jerusalem, is that being victim of victims doesn't easily get you sympathy around the world.

I, myself, as a non-jew / non-muslim / even a non-catholic, suffered discrimination in this country.

What is clear to me is that this man i met was very frustrated because for six years he is waiting for the governement to give him a permit to be able to rebuild a part of the fallen wall of his buisiness. (while another who is not a palestinian is given this opportunity immidiately)

D.S. double standard

A very small example of the frustrations lived by the palestinians. This frustration accumulates into greater ones, leading to anger, desperation and violence. One man said " if I were happy, my wife and children secured and fead, my rights respected, why would i mess with that! "

Religion comes and accentuates the division, but is it really the core of the problem?
Is the discrimination based on that?

All i know is I was served last to buy a piece of bread in jerusalem while clearly i was at the counter first. My religion was not advertised, just the fact that I was not an israeli PERIOD.

If i had to live that way on a daily basis with no way out... i would fall into a dangerous desperation myself.

It can happen anywhere.

Israeli people, understand the mistakes of their governement. Some complain (mostly young university students), and express their sympathy toward the suffering of the palestinians. But these are fallen on deaf ears if not accompanied with action.

For every suiecide bomber there are millions of palestinians quietly, saddly tolerating their fate. For every israeli solder shooting his gun under order, there are milions of israelis condeming their goverments policies.

So what is the solution...?

When the opressor is backed up by the most powerful nation in the world, how else can the opressed get any attention?

I love Jerusalem (city of peace) and a beautiful city indeed, cobbled stoned streets and souks filled with muslims, jews, palestinians, israelis, armenians, polish, italians, hongarians, ukranians, morocans, ethiopians, english, christians, athiests and the like, eating, working, selling, laughing, cussing, lending a hand, an insult, rubbing shoulders, making love, dancing, singing, crying, morning, and life goes on...

I am saddened that these events have decolorized this city into shades of dark greys.

Sharon? Ariel? (Lion) Pride?

But as a buddist would say "nothing is permanent "

and as Aries said " it must be ".

Perhaps it will make way to an amazing change.

No joy without pain?
Like a woman giving birth.

Rachel

Do you think Powell's presence over there really will work to clear things up? It must be very nice to be out of the critical spotlight for a while, and enact the new policies and plans unencumbered.

Something to think about.

love from snowpea

ok,I'll just run along now..

quote:

---

Religion comes and accentuates the division, but is it really the core of the problem?
Is the discrimination based on that?

---

You raise a very good question and your sharing of your first-hand knowledge of the daily feel of the place gives such necessary perspective. My thoughts are that symbols exist very deeply within humans, deeper, probably than most words in our languages go. It is absolutely true that not everyone involved in the situation is religious, or a member of any of "the three." But still, if a mutually supportive "structure" could be made of the three faiths, I would hope it would reduce combatants' internal justification for being beastly.

The "jihad" form of Islamic terrorist groups apparently think God approves of killings that target Jews gathered for Seder. The political State of Israel is opposed to a right of return for Palestinians because the State of Israel wants Jewish people to be the majority, not the minority, in Israel. And Christianity has certainly been invoked in history in persecution of both Islam and Judaism, and has fought wars over the same land in the past. So it all seems intertwined -- the religious and political within the Holy Land -- and it could surely, and would rightly, be addressed from a number of angles, it seems to me. Of course no one with half a chance to personally affect what happens there has asked for my help, so I'm off building pyramids in my mind.

Love,
Maria

For those with an interest:

LETTER OF JOHN PAUL II
TO CARD. ANGELO SODANO FOR A DAY OF PRAYER
FOR PEACE IN MIDDLE EAST

The dramatic situation in the Holy Land induces me to once again urgently appeal to the entire Church, asking all believers to intensify their prayers for those populations now being lacerated by forms of unheard-of violence. Precisely in this period, in which the hearts of Christians turn towards the places where the Lord Jesus suffered so much, died and arose, we receive ever more tragic news that adds to the growing dismay of public opinion, provoking the impression of an unstoppable tendency for inhuman brutality.

In the face of the stubborn determination with which both sides continue to go forth on the road of revenge and vendetta, what appears to the anguished souls of believers is the prospect of recourse to prayer to that God Who, alone, can change the hearts of men, even the most obstinate.

Next Sunday, April 7, the Church will celebrate with special fervor the mystery of Divine Mercy, and will give thanks to He Who took upon Himself the afflictions of our humanity. What could be a more suitable occasion to raise to heaven a choral invocation of pardon and mercy that implores the Heart of God for a special intervention upon all those who have responsibility and power to undertake the necessary steps, even if they cost a great deal, to put the parties that are fighting on the path towards just and dignified accords for all?

I would therefore, dear brother, be grateful if you could be the intermediary, in a manner you believe to be opportune, to convey this desire of mine to the pastors of the various particular Churches, inviting them all to offer, next Sunday, a unified plea in such a serious hour for all of mankind. May a message of a stable and lasting peace reach that land that is so dear to the three monotheistic religions.

With this hope, that comes from the deepest part of my heart, I send you and all my brothers in the episcopacy a special apostolic blessing.

From the Vatican, 4 April 2002

IOANNES PAULUS II

I forgot to tell you...I was so moved by your pyramid.....I went off into lala land building my own to go along with yours....and never told you how your vision is!!!!

Love and (((HUGS))) and Peace,

Dani

Sometimes i get so fed up with the issue in the mid-east, I say " aH!! let them all kill themselves if that's wha they want!....."

(an impulsive remark i then regret)

especially after watching a documentary involving the relation between pallestininian and israeli children.

Did anyyone see it (i don't recall the title)

I forgot to tell you thanks! See you in lala land.

Maria

In this vein, I'd like to offer the following quotation from Michael Moore's "Stupid White Men," which we've discussed at some length here. Bear in mind that Moore's viewpoint is that of a liberal humanitarian, and that he has been rather fearless in exposing corruptions within the US Government despite the enormous pressure against any criticism of the government these days, which says a lot to me about objectivity and integrity. For what it's worth:

---
The Holy Land

"Such a nice name - the Holy Land - for a place with more evil acts per square mile than the VIP room at Satan's annual marshmallow roast.

"In January of 1988, just one month after the beginning of the First Palestinian Intefada, a few friends and I traveled to Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza to see for ourselves what all the commotion was about.

"Although in my life I had already traveled through Central America, China, Southeast Asia, and other parts of the Middle East, I wasn't ready fore what I saw in the refugee camps in the Occupied Territories. I had never encountered such squalor, debasement, and utter misery. To force human beings to live in these conditions - and do so at the barrel of a gun, for more than forty years - just made no sense.

"I am deeply saddened and angered by the horror and misery the Jewish citizens of this earth have had to endure. No group has consistently seen more death and torture come their way than the Jews, at the hands of a bigotry that has lasted not just centuries but millennia.

"What amazes me is not the nature of this hatred - after all, ethnic war seems a fact of life - but the consistency with which it has been passed down, for thousands of years. Hate isn't like a grandfather clock or a gold watch; you can't leave it behind for your next of kin. If my great-great-great-grandfather hated Canadians or Presbyterians, I would have absolutely no way of knowing about it. And yet somehow hatred of Jews has been passed down, like a language or a song or an oral tradition, among so many people. Usually we humans are able to shake our bad ideas. Remember "The earth is flat?" We stopped pushing that nonsense six hundred years ago! We've gotten over the one about Creation taking only until Saturday night, and the one about eggs being bad for your cholesterol. So why haven't people wised up and sent their bigotry against Jews to the same dustbin that holds our Seals and Crofts records?

"Well here's one complicating factor in the case of the Palestinians: the unfortunate thing about humans is that once abused, some of us seek to abuse others. It's no surprise that abused kids grow up to abuse their own kids. After the Americans bombed the peaceful, neutral Cambodians over and over and over, slaughtering hundreds of thousands of them during the Vietnam War, it shouldn't have been a shock when the Killing Fields followed and Cambodians turned the slaughter on each other. After the Soviet Union lost over twenty million citizens in World War II, it's no surprise that they sought insurance against future invasion by seizing and dominating nearly every country that bordered them.

"Sometimes people just go crazy from too much abuse and violence and take drastic, irrational measures to protect themselves.

"I don't want to involve myself in the various arguments about why Israel was created, or what the historical or biblical claims are to the land. Rather, I want to deal with the situation at hand - which is the ongoing killing on both sides of the question: the continued hatred toward the Jews by the Palestinians, and the appalling oppression of the Palestinians by the Israelis.

"It's true that there is also much oppression of Palestinians in Arab countries, where Palestinians aren't allowed to vote or own property and are treated as second-class citizens and pawns in the fight against Israel. But I'm not going to spend my time on this, since there isn't a whole lot I can do about it. You and I don't give $3 billion a year to Syria, as we do to Israel. And since that's our money, we must consider ourselves responsible for the oppression, killing, and apartheid conditions that have been created in Israel's Occupied Territories.

"The fighting in the Middle East has got to stop - and now. Israel has nuclear weapons, some Arab countries soon will, and we'd better stop this madness quickly before we ALL pay a huge price for it.

"I, for one, don't want apartheid being funded in my name - anywhere. I believe (stop me if you've heard this before) that all human beings deserve the right to self-determination, the right to the ballot, the right tolife, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Arabs who live on the West Bank and Gaza have none of this. They are not free to travel. They are under constant curfew. They are taxed with no representation. They are arrested and jailed without trial. Their homes are bulldozed without warning. Their land is stolen and given to "settlers." Their children are murdered for throwing stones - or for just walking down the street.

"Of course they throw stones! Of course they kill Israeli settlers! That's what abused people do - they fight back, and abuse others. Who should know this better than the Israelis? The whole world butchers them to near-extinction in the last century, and they'll be damned if they are going to be annihilated in this millennium.

"At times like this, those of us who have been fortunate enough to avoid this kind of suffering in our own lives must step in and stop the killing. That is what I want my country to do. And here's how: Quit sending over a blank check, and start getting in there with both parties to stop the barbarism."

- From Stupid White Men, by Michael Moore, published by ReganBooks (HarperCollins), New York. Copyright © 2001 by Michael Moore, all rights reserved.

---

Moore goes on to detail his own peace plan, which I won't quote here but which includes 1) tying continuing US aid to Israel to the immediate cessation of violent repression of the Palestinians, 2) a mandatory plan within one year to create a sovereign nation called Palestine, formed from the West Bank, Gaza, and some strip of land that connects them, 3) a Palestinian Constitution that absolutely prohibits any form of aggression against Israel and guarantees full democratic rights to every Palestinian man, woman, and child, 4) US economic aid to the nation of Palestine to build roads, schools, and industries that provide decent-paying jobs and raises the Palestinians up from their current sub-human living conditions, and 5) an unequivocal commitment to defend BOTH nations against aggression - both from each other and from surrounding regimes.

Obviously much thought would need to be put into the concretes of such a plan, but I must say that the broad outlines make more sense than anything else I've heard in the way of proposed solutions.

Love,
Greg

They are going to starve and thirst those 200 to death in the Church of the Nativity. Including the nuns and priests and friars. I saw a news article yesterday, by an ordinary, establishment-type news source, in which the Israeli brass admitted they don't like those religious orders (Catholic, Greek Orthodox and another I can't recall) who run the church anyway, because the religious are "too sympathetic to the Palestinians."

The Israelis say they've got all kinds of time to resolve the standoff in Bethlehem, because, after all, they cynically say, they don't want to hurt the building. Meanwhile, the water and food has run out and the Israelis won't allow any to be delivered.

The religious personnel won't leave, because they know if they do, the Palestinians in the church will be at the mercy of the Israeli Army. Which army has just demonstrated the quality of its mercy at Jenin.

Hear, O Israel...

Maria
The term "Spirit" translates the Hebrew word "ruah," which, in its primary sense, means breath, air, wind.

****************************************
"A time for love, a time for peace...
Let us not fight among ourselves, and so, we'll cease to exist!"

~~ Cristina
Libra_Sun
****************************************

Love,
Greg

I like the Yowusa article, and looking back we wouldn't have guessed the Clinton administration and Peace Process would turn out as of today.

I like the Pyramid idea too, by Maria and as optimistic as we want peace in middle east, we know that human structures are vulnerable. And the next question, a Pyramid is built is - who is going to have the Final say. And I wouldn't want the "Anti-Christ" to be seated at the seat of the Pyramid and given the glory to rule over men, when the banner Peace is actually with a hidden agenda.

So, the right thing to do is Gregory's plea for prayer. And to be right with ourselves and others. To come to terms with Love. For when we are able to purge ourselves from selfish ambitions and of hatred, we are able to discern the Spirit of this age. And be able to make the right judgement.

And certainly the month of May is a crucial time to pray. What's with the allignment of the planets? And whats with the Bethlehem star? Greg, need your help here on Star Chat (The rare allignment).

With love,
Scorpguy

p/s Maria, yeap, Spirit means breath of God. (When God breathed into Adam's lifeless nostrils). I think we need to remove selfish ambitions, and be filled with God's breath of love and unity. That way One Spirit of goodness will transform the terror of this world.

In the last few days, the world's attention has turned again to the Church of the Nativity. Miracles are possible.

Keep praying all, and keep breathing.

Love,
Maria

Maria, I dont believe love is spreading faster, other than purely for the spiritual. Its obvious,with whats going on, and whats in the "works" with secret agendas, there is MUCH darkness yet to come. When dealing in the real world, and being involved in various groups, its easy to see the rage,hatred,and selfishness which is only deepening on many levels. Im saying this from the standpoint of knowing what governments are doing to people,with cutbacks in medicare, schools,the mentally disabled,human rights issues,increases in taxes,..Nafta and major job losses, the list is absolutely endless. We have swiftly become war mongering nations..with a "we are better than you" attitude. Not to mention the apostasy of the catholic church priests (notice I dont blame the church itself but the individuals) and their sexual lusts..etc etc. Yet,all is probably how its meant to be, at least for now.(evolution or not??)

I agree totally with mr.scorpguy..its up to us to realize whats important, love,selfLESSness,and dealing with the greed and lusts of this world. I think that was the "message" with the most important structure of this world in the material sense being destroyed (the WTC).

As above,so below.

questions like:

Why are americans hated? any answers?

Why are jews victims of bigotry? any answers?

Why are semites killing semites? And is that considered bigotry? any answers?

All I seem to realise is that the more you cry victimisation over and over and over and over thru out years and decades... well let's move on! Let's stop dividing, let's recognise that all nations on this planet thru out centuries have suffered discrimination, torture, death, bigotry, genocide... and other horrific acts.

A recent documentary revealed the many holocausts / genocides taken place such as the Armenian genocide... ever heard of that? Any movies done on that? Articles and education spread on that? Recognition by the U.S of it?

Let's all cry victimisation over and over and over and over but for God's sake let's be fair. And after we agree that we should shed equal tears for the suffering of many nations and peoples of this planet and realise that suffering is not greater just because it has had more of a world wide forum, perhaps we can work together and elliminate this aspect of having exclusivity over being victimized.

When you create exclusion, you create bitterness in the ones excluded,
that bitterness grows teeth and claws and comes back in the form of hatred.

Hate, if we really search its origin is often the sad result of pain, frustration, fear, desperation, a feeling of injustice done to you.

Think of the last time you experience a feeling of dislike to put it mildly and dig to find the why, often it is hurt...

Enough.

Stop crying. Do something. Start by recognising that you are not alone as a people or nation or a person. We all are victoms somewhere somehow.

Focus on the injustices here and now. Now is all there is at this point.

I don't need another holocaust movie to be sensitized, i have my own history, my own great grandparent's horrific death, my own eyes to see the suffering of poeple in the mid-east, in india, in afganistan, in poor rural areas in north america etc...

Yerushalaim (the city of peace?) only if they all see that they are all one and equal, deserving of equal rights, equal recognition, equal consideration. Only if they see that exclusivity divides. Only if they start seing one another as one human race, one history, one same anatomical heart with one need to love and be loved.

I am tired. But hopeful.

NO.