Apology accepted, Jwhop.

I do recognize that comments expressed by folks whose points of view are radically different from our own may cause insult and offence in ways that were not intended by the original posters ... and when that happens we SHOULD point it out, to preserve the atmosphere of a productive discussion. That's why I raised the issue in my post above, and I also appreciate your pointing to the thread containing cartoons that you found personally offensive. Feelings run strong about these issues, and if no one points out the times when our desire to express our points strongly crosses the line between impassioned rhetoric and insult, then we have no means of "self-correcting" in order to continue the conversation on more productive lines. So it was a useful exchange.

However, I will say to you - and you too, Joyce - that when there are strong disagreements, it's really a shame if we think the only alternative is to abandon the discussion entirely, because then we lose the potential to create bridges of understanding. Certainly a discussion that amounts to no more than opposing viewpoints asserting that the other is wrong, over and over again, are useless. But it is also possible to actually address the points raised by differing viewpoints, even if we feel those viewpoints are "ridiculous" or have little merit. If we do that in a spirit of mutual respect and genuine intention to communicate, it's just possible that we might cause the other person to see and understand something they presently do not understand ... or conversely that we ourselves might come to understand that we previously didn't understand, or saw in a different light. If the only alternatives are to repeatedly state our existing convictions forcefully or abandon the conversation entirely, then it IS useless.

For example, Jwhop, when the question of civil rights abuses came up, you addressed that very directly, by summarizing the provisions of the Patriot act and stating why they did not appear to contain any civil rights violations. I thought that was excellent, because it moved the conversation away from arbitrary "assertions" and said, in effect, "well let's look at the actual FACTS of the matter and see if there is any real basis to these assetrtions." That's the way a dialectic or reasoned debate SHOULD proceed!

And in that spirit, I responded by addressing your points directly, showing why a closer examination of the Patriot provisions revealed more problematic civil rights issues than the high-level summary seemed to show. I was genuinely interested in hearing your viewpoint about those closer looks ... were they aspects that you were unaware of? Or were they things you were aware of but don't consider significant concerns for individual liberty? Or what? You see my point? By drilling into an issue as if we were both trying to uncover a meaningful understanding rather than "merely" trying to proselytize our own pre-existing convictions, we might gain a better understanding of the others' convictions, even if we never "convert" the other to our way of thinking ... and in the process we might help all the other folks who read the threads to gain information and insights that might help them make up their minds about issues that are still unclear to them. That's a real value, in my opinion the ONLY real value of spirited discussion about controversial issues. But when you dropped the thread and chose NOT to carry on the dialog about civil rights, but instead to talk about websites that mistrust the current administration in terms of "they all loathe America" and so on (which clearly does not apply to me, I LOVE america, and so do a number of other posters here - not all of them, of course - who deeply value America and its ideals but are also deeply critical of the government's current policies), then we lost the possibility of meaningful communication and working toward any shared understanding, and wandered again to the unproductive stance of "those who disagree with me are crazy/wrong/ill-motivated, etc." which of course will NEVER lead to any kind of understanding.

Then the decision to abandon the conversation entirely also terminates any possibility of working toward more understanding (although I'll agree that it's certainly preferable to just trading insults!)

Joyce I do understand that it's uncomfortable to discuss issues with folks who hold opinions that differ radically from yours, or that even seem harmful to what you value. But disagreement over such issues is extremely widespread throughout the entire world at this time, and on a spiritually oriented website forum devoted to "world community" it should be possible to build at least small bridges of understanding through reasoned conversation. Because if we can't do that here, then we certainly can't do it in the world at large, and if we can't do it in the world at large then the ONLY mechanism for getting past disputes is physical force, and then we find ourselves in a "might makes right" world rather than one where there is some commitment to human agreement about what is right. And that's important, because whatever our individual convictions about what is going on in the world right now, or the policies of the current administration, I think we can all agree that a defacto reliance on "might makes right" is a bad thing for the world ... including America the strong.

Up to both of you, of course, but I hope you will not abandon these discussions simply because they are uncomfortable. I think a willingness to keep an open and respectful dialog about controversial topics that affect everyone is extremely important to all communities, from our little one here on the web to the world at large. That's my perspective.

Love,
Greg

Greg and Terri,
A bit of a break then, okay? Our opinions are so different that we are mainly going to keep getting into conflict here. I will enjoy both of you in other places.

Jwhop,
Astrology is actually not a big passion of mine, but I'm somewhat interested. I'll keep an eye out for you. Thanks for you comments about my son.

Joyce

Fair enough, Joyce. Thanks!

Love,
Greg

I am a frequent 'lurker' on this site. I wish I had time to be an active member

This forum is the most important one to me. I have never paid attention to politics because I felt that politicians were all a bunch of liars and that one small entity such as myself had no influence.......so why bother?

With the current state of world affairs, I feel that it is important for people like me to 'get with the program', PAY ATTENTION, and find some way to make a difference in the world. In order to make decisions along these lines it helps to be INFORMED. The problem with politics is that its so complex its overwhelming.

EVERYONE who contributes to this forum is doing an invaluable service for people like me. Each perspective and each opposing view gives me a broader picture. I wouldn't even bother with this forum if everyone was in the same mind frame. I'm LOOKING for the big picture......and you ALL help provide that. I get to browse thru all the contemplations and then make up my own mind on the issues. PLUS I have the added benefit of the opinions of 'foreigners ' on American politics. I find that extremely important.

I think its wonderful when people 'speak' with emotion. I'm not looking for lukewarm sentiment. When an opposing view makes your blood boil or gives you a headache so that you can't participate, you've lost an opportunity to influence people like ME I'm the silent observer who is interested in your point of view....and I can't be the only one. So, don't take your ball and go home.....throw another pitch (just don't try to take out the batter )

Virgo Rising, thank you so much for stepping out of the woodwork to confirm that a real dialectic here is truly worthwhile!

I was hoping I wasn't talking through my hat!

Love,
Greg

Welcome VR! Its always nice to hear a new face 'round here.

Hey Joyce..you're such a lovely aries moon.. and I mean that with great respect!

These kind of topics are always tense..its so nice when we can hear with at least a bit of respect, others viewpoints.

Greg seems to have a great data base if anyone is interested in all of this. Sometimes we cant see the forest for the flag-waving at the tops of the trees, ..and I DONT mean that to strictly the americans. This is a GLOBAL problem.
Its not a we/them thing.
We are all in this together.

Oh yea, and as I told Terri tonight...TERRI for president of the Anti-New World Dis-Order!!

The Anti-New World Dis-Order, I love it!!!

Love,
Greg

Here an interesting read about the Bali blasts. Im warning a few of you now this is about concerns the US had a hand in it, so if you dont want to get your blood a boilin'..dont go there!
See ya all in a couple of days..Im outta here for the weekend.

http://www.voxnyc.com/archives/00000033.htm

.."Bali Disco Bombing - Another US "Inside Hit."
Introducing the "Link" and "Pivot" bombs
or
Looks like another US Military/Intelligence Black Op
by voxfux"

LOL - I'm sure ALOT of people would agree that I would be an excellent candidate to be the President of Disorder!

Have a good trip Aries! Thanks for the link,

Love,
Terri

In reply to:

---

Poster: Aries
Subject: Re: Does anyone know WHY the US may be "attacking" Iraq??

Here an interesting read about the Bali blasts. Im warning a few of you now this is about concerns the US had a hand in it, so if you dont want to get your blood a boilin'..dont go there!
See ya all in a couple of days..Im outta here for the weekend.

http://www.voxnyc.com/archives/00000033.htm

.."Bali Disco Bombing - Another US "Inside Hit."
Introducing the "Link" and "Pivot" bombs
or
Looks like another US Military/Intelligence Black Op
by voxfux"

---

Sorry Greg but no reasonable person can have a dialogue on this site when posters like Aries and the rest of the America haters post drivel so patently full of rumor, innuendo, supposition, distortion and outright lies without a shred of proof.

If by chance there are some who wish to know what the United States is all about, they might want to start with the documents on the following sites and ponder what they really mean.

http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html
http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html

Good-bye

jwhop

Joy

If by chance you happen to see this, sorry but we won't be meeting up on other forums on this site.

Good luck to you and your son.

Love,
jwhop

Jeez Aries, thanks for the warning about the link you posted, but I ignored it and looked anyway ... and I'm sorry I did!

Yep, I think this is a great example of why folks think that all criticism of US policy is rabid insanity! The author has ONE piece of thoughtful observation: why would Islamic terrorists bomb a bar full of Australians when there were plenty of equally easy targets full of Americans nearby? That's a valid question that gives pause for thought. Sadly the author DOESN'T pause for thought, but charges ahead full steam to weave that one open question into a twenty-paragraph indictment of not only the US administration but also everyone he supposes is a part of the conspiracy, from the Masons to the Catholic church to Southern Baptists, taking plenty of opportunity along the way to categorize ALL US "mainstream" journalists as stupid, ignorant "media whores." I fail to see how such bile can possibly contribute anything toward understanding and clear awareness of anything ... it's only purpose is to vent anger and vilification, and along the way it insults and alienates practically everyone who doesn't happen to share this particular writer's personal view of who the bad guys are.

I really wish that folks who write this kind of incendiary crap would realize how much harm they do to the cause of any meaningful criticism of establishment policies ... by presenting a case so clearly based on anger and hatred rather than any reasonably stated presentation of meaningful facts and evidence, they leave a foul taste in the mouth toward ALL criticism. In fact, if I were paranoid enough I would suspect that "voxfux" himself is a clever plant of the CIA designed to discredit any opposition. He could hardly do a better job of it!

There is plenty of thoughtful, evidential, and rationally presented information out there to argue the case of CIA deception and ulterior motives ... hysterical bile like this has nothing to contribute to peace and understanding, IMHO.

Love,
Greg

Sorry Jwhop, we crossed posts.

As you can see I agree with you completely about the inappropriateness of that material. I still believe that nothing is served by leaving the dialog because of it - and certainly not the whole site.

I'm on my way out for brunch, I'll be back soon, hope I still see you here.

Love,
Greg

Hi Greg, Joyce, Jwhop, Aries, and all,

Jwhop -

I hope your absence will be very short and temporary. I as well as many others here do value your opinion and we still want to hear what you have to say. There have been several occasions on this site when I have felt ostracized so I somewhat understand how you feel. I agree with your comment regarding "posts that contain drivel so patently full of rumor, innuendo, supposition, distortion and outright lies without a shred of proof." Like Joyce, it sickens me and I cringe when I hear that the United States deserved the attacks of 9/11.

I also believe a lot of the statements made lack merit, are farfetched and are full of conjecture. So, like you I try to look at the sources when I can by going to the various links a member has supplied and try to dig deeper and synthesize the information as I did in the below thread and responded (Aug 8) with a "Come on, you guys. Do your research. Are you going to listen and believe everything you read and hear?"

What would you do if you found out your country killed 8 million people????

I am just as well weary of listening to all the common loathing for the United States (especially from US citizens) and the ongoing criticism of President Bush (and I don't even like the guy or any of his policies). Usually my thinking is if you don't like the U.S., then leave. Like Joyce's son, I too proudly served in the active military. One of the many reasons I joined was to defend the right of free speech, which I strongly believe in.

It is interesting that you mentioned the Bill of Rights in a post above, because the right to criticize the government is guaranteed in the First and Fourth Amendments. Criticizing the government and suggesting alternatives is the basis of our democracy. Since when did loving your country mean supporting every decision your President makes? Doesn't democracy thrive when different opinions are openly debated and a balance of power brings the will of the people to Capitol Hill?

Patriotism means caring about America, not blindly supporting leaders, regardless of what they do. It means asking questions, expressing disagreement and seeking out different points of view, not rallying behind one perspective simply because our nation faces threats. Government should explain why it is doing what it is doing. It is my right and duty to question authority.

Republican President Teddy Roosevelt was a Hawk that often questioned the involvement or non-involvement of America in military actions. Roosevelt loved America and believed in America but he was seldom silent and did not expect it from others. I agree with what he said here:

In reply to:

---

"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly as necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile.

TO ANNOUNCE THAT THERE MUST BE NO CRITICISM OF THE PRESIDENT, OR THAT WE ARE TO STAND BY THE PRESIDENT, RIGHT OR WRONG, IS NOT ONLY UNPATRIOTIC AND SERVILE, BUT IS MORALLY TREASONABLE TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."

-- Theodore Roosevelt (article for the Kansas City Star, written during World War I)

---

Is it un-American to criticize a sitting American president during times of war or strife? President Roosevelt didn't think so. Nor do I. China, the former USSR, and Nazi Germany are examples of countries that silence dissent. Not quite your model of freedom loving countries. Because it seems that President Bush and Attorney General Ashcroft are incapable of understanding the Bill of Rights I don't think they are very good Americans:

In reply to:

---

"I will not tolerate second-guessing of my administration."
- President George W. Bush

"Those who criticize this government's action could face federal charges."
- Attorney General John Ashcroft

---

So you say the "Clinton administration was the most corrupt in American history." I am not too sure about that:

"I am not a crook."
-- President Nixon
Nov. 17, 2001; Watergate Investigation



Sabra

I feel like standing on my head too, Sabra!

It's tough to find your principles and stand by them in times like these, when so much that we have taken for granted is up for grabs. I was just reading yesterday about how Jews in Chicago stood up for the right of neo-Nazis to peacefully demonstrate in public. Not because they were pro-Nazi, obviously, but because they fervently supported free speech. Gotta admire that, that's a moral conviction with backbone!

I'm probably more of a constitutional zealot than you and Joyce and jwhop put together ... well, strike that, it's not a competition, but I'll say flat out that I will defend our constitutional principles with my life, that's how important I believe they are to humanity. Each of us must judge for ourselves if and when there is a difference between those principles and what our leaders are telling us and steering us toward. And if and when we DO see a discrepancy there, the only important question is whether we will emerge from that tough moral choice still on the side of the Constitution and what it stands for. Somehow, I have faith that for most Americans, we will.

Thank you Sabra.

A brief apology to all our non-American members for focusing so lopsidedly on this country ... that's not meant to be a slight to anyone else, it's just that this is where the biggest decisions and actions seem to be focused at the moment, and I think the Americans getting our heads together about this may be as important as anything in the world right now. But it's not just about America or Americans by a long shot. It's really about whether our species will take the next step toward a global society ... and make no mistake about it, a global society of SOME discription is coming, and MUST come ... but its about whether that global society will be built on the same fearless defense of freedom and respect for individual rights and liberty as that embodied in the American constitution, but extended equally to ALL people of the world .... or if it will be built on a system of technocratic control and administration run by the ultimate heirs of all the Caesars and Khans of history. That is the real choice that all humanity is moving toward these days, and if these conversations do no more than nudge us all a little closer toward that awareness as human being citzens of the Earth, then they will have served their purpose well in my book!

Love,
Greg

Greg (and anybody else),

I found the below the other day which I thought might also apply here and maybe ease some tensions. It's just my way of responding to some of the fatalistic views and the world is going to end tomorrow type of thinking I sometimes see here and getting some readers uptight including myself.

What caught my interest are the STOP using phrases .... I posted the link below if anybody wants to investigate further. The web page includes a "Find Your Officials" link in case anybody wants to write to any of the elected officials, members of Congress, etc.


Sabra

In reply to:

---

- STOP using phrases like "war is inevitable"; "we have lost our civil rights"; "what is coming will be a lot worse"; "we can't stop the violence"; "they are going to war anyway." None of this thinking helps. Don't add to the terrorist consciousness by thinking thoughts of violence or fear. Focus on peace. Focus on the fact that, in this country, our right to speak is protected by law. Eventually, Washington will have to listen.

- Don't think: "I can't do anything"; "If I speak what I think and feel, then I will be attacked too"; "It is too late, the leaders have already set a course of action."

- Whether or not you believe it, thoughts create our reality. Think thoughts of courage, find a power within you that acts through the fear, that believes and even "knows" that we can make a difference, that we can stop the violence and that we can set the course of peace for our country. This country belongs as much to the peaceful as to those who would choose violence.

What you can do right NOW

---

Thanks for posting this Sabra

I think it's wise advice, and very important to remember that we DO create reality by our expectations!

Part of the reason this is such a tough issue to discuss is that so much of what is going on "behind the scenes" in the world today (to say nothing of what's going on "in front of the scenes" ) IS frightening and angering ... so it is very understandable that folks react to it with fear, anger and despair. What's more, when folks mention a lot of the challenges we face -- especially those that have not been widely acknowledged in public media and "consensus reality" -- it's easy to hear such talk as negative and fatalistic, and therefore to wish to avoid hearing about it in order to keep our "vibes" high and our hopes and optimism intact.

This is a very fine line, because if we DON'T talk about it, these things will remain largely unknown and unacknowledged, and we can't change what we don't know about! Rather, I think it's critical that these things ARE discussed openly, but from the awareness that we are not helpless "victims," and really do have the power to choose our own future.

Yes there are some big challenges facing the world ... including some that we would really rather not hear about ... but in my own estimation the fact that these subjects are now being openly broached is not cause for pessimism or fatality at all, but is rather an extremely positive and optimistic sign! With knowledge we can choose wisely, and I earnestly believe that the vast majority of human beings have the wisdom and good will to choose a positive future for humanity ... but WITHOUT knowledge of the choices, we cannot choose but must simply let events unfold as they they are unfolding ... and that may very well not be the future we would choose for ourselves.

So the fine line as I see it is this: where it comes to the issue of civil liberties, for example, it is certainly counterproductive to bemoan "we have lost our civil liberties!" But it is equally counterproductive to fail to acknowledge that there are forces at work that threaten those civil liberties, because then we are unable to do anything about it! The most useful stance, IMHO, is to squarely recognize the challenges, and face them with full confidence and optimism that evil intent cannot and will not stand when shown for what it is and resisted by the power of truth and love.

To reach this productive ground, those of us who do not like to discuss these things need to realize that shining light on the truth -- even when it is an unpleasant truth -- is not "negative thinking." And conversely, those of us who DO believe it is essential to discuss these things need to keep in mind that "thoughts are things," and that if we present the challenges in terms of anger, hatred, despair or fatalism we are not doing anything to help the situation, but are only inadvertently aiding the very things we are complaining about!

A great balancing act for all.

Love,
Greg

You are very welcome Greg .

I liked the way you explained it. I agree, it is a very "fine line". Now I just noticed another thread here called the New World Order .

Nothing wrong with that post, but that is some of the things I was thinking about when I wrote the above before the other thread was put up. It is good to acknowledge and discuss it, but I just wished some of the "doom and gloom" wasn't so negative.

I guess that is why I used the term fatalistic above and put up the STOP using phrases . . .. I hope others would look at that also. Correct me if I am wrong but I think some of the "doom and gloom" language feeds on itself and it goes into an endless spiral, hence a lot of those kind of posts here. I can't speak for Jwhop and Joyce, but I think that is part of what was causing the frustration here.

Thanks again .

Sabra

Sabra

I read this post of yours early this morning, and was going to reply then, but thought I'd think on it for the day.

I understand that there's a group of people here who are very sensitive to anything that speaks of negitivity. I understand that to you 'doom and gloom' statements are counter-productive. I can accpet that as a valid opinion, though I don't understand what yardstick to use to measure the doominess and gloominess of a statement. It's kind of a personal level of tolerance I think, like what is 'hot' in a curry. I understand that another problem in this forum (since day one) has been the perception that there are America-haters amongest the members here who hate democracy and everything American represents. At least I understand that feeling to the extent that I have read where a handful of people have expressed this feeling, and yet I have never felt that myself here. Again, on a scale of objectivity, I guess some people are resonding to what I would call black pepper, while I am eating bird's eye chillies.

I have tried my absolute best to be very precise, cautious and bridge-building in my language here, feeling that most of these arguments coul be prevented by a judious employment of tact, discretion and above all, love and understanding. Again, on this sliding scale of objectivity, I am sure some people wuold disagree with that statement, but I can only speak for my heart and conscience, and it's clear.

But tonight I have finally reached the end of this self-imposed teether I have hooked myself up to, and I have to come right out and say I am throughly pissed off!!! Not at you - but at the oppressive feeling created by these demands for more and further censorship of my thoughts, feelings and ideas. I thought your post on 'Stop using phrases' was interesting and helpful - but not to the extent that I am willing to entirely re-shape all my convictions, intuitions, hopes and fears. In fact, I will go so far as to say that I don't even enjoy posting here anymore, and yet it was my favourite forum when Greg first created it. I am so frustrated at having to continually keep my mouth shut, rein myself in, and basically deny my views of the world and our future that I feel like a liar. I would rather not post here than continue to feel this constrained, this CENSORED. It's too friggin' oppressive. And why do I have to not talk abut possible negitively in the world's future, or abuses of power in America, because some people are offened by it, when other people talk about stuff here that is offensive to me, and I have to accept it? How is that fair? How does that promote community?

I belive in my heart of hearts, with every ounce of my rational mind and intuitive spirit that the next 20 or so years are going to be full of terrible amounts of suffering for billions of people, if the present course that mankind is on does not shift. And I feel, in this same intuitive way, that although many have worked in many ways to create a shift, there is still alot to do, and exponentially less time to manifest it. We can talk about modern politics, the economy, the media, the environment, war, population growth -- in every one of these areas I see the need for a swift and elemental change in almost every institution or governing body. And if we don't change, or we change to little to late - then yes I see a doom and gloom coming that will be horrible beynd desciption. Only our actions (not words!) stand between us and this fate. Love is an action, and a powerful one to be sure - but so is communication. And I challange anyone out there to tell me how we ARE NOT on the brink of some sort of disaster, either by warfare or by environmental collapse. If you can prove that statement, than I will gladly retract anything negitive I've said about the future. If you can't prove it, if you can only spout pat phraes or patrioic drivel, then I don't feel I ought to be constrained in my truth sharing.

Like I said, there's lots said on these forums I disagree with. I keep my mouth shut, and accept that the real value lies in the discussion, that not everyone is going to be a kndred spirit of mine, that I can learn from every thoughtform out there. If I can find it in myself to give others that freedom, then why can't I have the same?

LIke I said, I am not personally upset with you - more like you came out and said what I feel others have been implying for a long time. But this doesn need to be talked about. As I have been writing his I have realized just how oppressive and pervasive this censorship vibe has been getting. I know that I have not written any of the types of articles I would like to write for the newsletter - that I envisioned writing for the newsletter - because of the fear of reprisal. I know that I post less and less for the same reasons. I think that's wrong, and it's grating away at my basic character, which does not respond well to being contained.

Love,
Terri

Well, gotta say I agree with everything Terri said here.

Its sad when people cant voice an opinion without someone thinking we are shooting at their flag!

The makings of WW3, the NWO and everything it encompasses HAD to start somewhere..why does it seem to unbelievable it would take its major form in a rich country with citizens who have access to a great education? (meaning the United States)

The truth is, people of the US have been duped,plain and simple...But it wont end there. It is happening in every country. Im (UN?)fortunate enough,living in Canada,in a province where a lot of whats going on in the USA, actually started here quite a while ago,so I guess you could say I had a head start in seeing it all unfold.
Our premiere has altered our medical system so drastically,..welfare,etc,that its very comprehensible people will one day soon be living on the streets (until they are "rounded up") He also ordered many people back to work (breaking labour laws,the same way B*** did with the longshoreman). Believe me,Ive been in this "fight" to get rid of a government, and our hands are tied. This IS the NWO...there aint no fightin' it babies,cuz its the way its meant to be! But many of us wont go down without a fight...and what is necessary now is understanding WHY this is happening. And NOT falling into the traps of hate and violence now being "set-up".

If anyone got a chance to listen to Graham Hancock last night on the Art Bell show..he did an excellent segment about nation and world karma..
(Terri, try and listen to it on the early broadcast tonight..its at the end of his interview)

And shes right...millions of people will die over the next 20 years..its time to get the heads out of LaLa land. "Thinking" better thoughts dont do crap...its about ACTION. And human beings actions arent so pleasant these days. The only way "thoughts" will help is by thinking about things better before we do them. As Hancock said last night.."treating others how WE wish to be treated". He told us how end of eras had one common denominator,in that humans didnt think/behave that way so much near the end.

Jwhop wrote: "Sorry Greg but no reasonable person can have a dialogue on this site when posters like Aries and the rest of the America haters post drivel so patently full of rumor, innuendo, supposition, distortion and outright lies without a shred of proof."

Jwhop tried to find a way to stay here - said he wouldn't post in the community section any more. Right after that, Aries delivered the decisive blow. So, now he is gone - out of self-respect.

You can say anything you want, Terri. You too, Aries. There won't be anyone to dispute your opinons. Where is Donna, another favorite of mine? She rarely posts.

Jwhop even got reprimanded for addressing me, and not Greg. Can't he have favorites? Everyone else around here sure does.

On a personal note, I am very sad that jwhop is no longer here. Although astrology doesn't rule my daily life, I couldn't help but notice his leo sun and moon and scoripio rising - + an aries mars. Custom made for a friend - for me. Oh, well.

Anybody got any new dirt on the US? Speak freely. Everyone will be in perfect agreement. The rest of us will be gone.

I'm also mad, Terri.

Joyce

Ok Joy..well now you're putting words in my mouth so its time to have a talk with you. Its peoples words such as yours that cuz a hell of a lot of trouble in this world. Where did I say Im an american HATER? Ide like to see that post please.
Sad you had to stoop to that level.
I'll have you know,other than Terri, my good online friends are american citizens who LIVE in the USA. And I WONT post what some of them had to say about the government heading your country.as its unprintable on this site...

Well Terri, I'm glad you got that out! Sitting with bottled frustration when you feel you have something important to say is no good for anyone ... and certainly not what we want happening on these forums.

Please accept my apologies if I have been among those who have made you feel that way ... and that's possible, because I AM very sensitive to "negativity" on the boards, and have spoken about it a number of times. And while I can't in good conscience say that I haven't meant what I've said about it, it is possible that I haven't come across clearly and may be inhibiting discussion in ways I haven't intended at all.

I tried to clarify this in my response to Sabra above, but must not have done it well. To me avoiding "doom and gloom" and "negativity" has NOTHING to do with recognizing unpleasant realities. But it DOES have everything to do with respecting what may well be the most important spiritual recognition there is, namely that we create our own reality. And I'm not happy using this forum to CREATE a fearful and oppressive reality with our thoughts and expressions, pure and simple.

The difference is as straightforward as this: if someone you love develops a malignant cancer, you certainly should not fail to acknowledge it. That's hiding from the truth, and does NO ONE any good. But at the same time you certainly should NOT tell that person that there is no point trying alternative treatments because they are going to be dead in six months no matter what they do!

If someone came over to my house and told a suffering relative of mine something like that, I would throw them out instantly, no ifs ands or buts! Why? Because such a thought form can literally create the "reality" it expresses. I won't allow that to happen to someone I care about.

With regard to the "new world order" agenda, and the influence that it has had over "official" US policy and the policies of all the developed nations ... as you know, I feel strongly that this is a genuine threat that describes a real plan to subvert human liberty not only in the US but throughout the world. I also recognize that there are people of intelligence and honor and integrity who do NOT believe that there is any such "conspiracy" in the world, and I think it is very important to allow plenty of space and respect for BOTH viewpoints to express themselves clearly and without insult or being "shouted down" or bullied by the other side. Open debate and respect for differing viewpoints is one of the most crucial values of a free society, and we CERTAINLY will not promote freedom and liberty by failing to allow dissent and disagreement from ANY direction.

But there is a big difference between saying "this is a serious threat we are facing and we better wake up to it," and saying "freedom is dead and there's nothing that we can do about it, it is written and that's that, so you might as well wake up and smell the garbage."

A BIG difference. Because the second sentiment is not merely a "difference of opinion," it is actually a WEAPON aimed at freedom (whether that's its intent or not.) Because, amplified by the power of the internet and mass communication, such thoughts can literally paralyze our ability to resist, and thereby bring about the very doom they foretell.

Aries, this is a big problem I have had over the years with a lot of your communication. I have gradually come to realize that your own viewpoint is NOT a hopeless one about the inevitability of catastrophic destruction ... but to be honest it took me a long time to realize that and I still have to look really hard at a lot of your messages to see that you are not selling a message of inevitable hopelessness. It's the way you express yourself, with words like "...there aint no fightin' it babies, cuz its the way its meant to be!" That's strong enough that it is quite understandable why a lot of folks freeze up at that point and don't hear you go on to say "But many of us won't go down without a fight..." or "The only way 'thoughts' will help is by thinking about things better before we do them."

Well of course that's right, that's the purpose of thought, it's a precursor to action. That's how reality gets created: we think things, then we act to bring our thoughts into manifestation. If we divorce thought from action, then nothing happens. But do you see the mixed message? If there's "no fighting" these dire prognostications because "it's the way it's meant to be!" then why even bother with changing our thoughts and actions? Why not just twiddle our thumbs and await the inevitable?

Please don't think I'm attacking you Aries, because I'm not, and I actually have a lot of respect for you ... but I sure would like to help you understand WHY so many folks take many of your messages to be hostile and threatening -- because they SEEM to be attacking our most cherished and important human faculty, the faculty of free will. If we really have no free will, then all talk about truth and beauty and goodness and love - and even God and prophecy - is just idle chatter and self-deceit. Without free will, we are just programmed monkeys with delusions of grandeur, and that IS insulting!

Which brings me to the other critical issue in this arena, which is insult. Regardless of what facts or truth there might be behind the idea of CIA or clandestine factions in the US plotting evil deeds or pursuing a repressive dictatorial agenda, websites that spew hatred for the US are not a contribution to reasoned discourse or world peace! Not any more than websites that spew hatred for the Muslim world, or that spew hatred for Jews, or hatred for blacks, or hatred for ANYONE. And let's face it, a lot of the sites that are pointed to by critics of US policy are NOT reasoned, informative sites, they are hotbeds of anti-American hatred that pay little or no attention to sources or logic, merely repeating oft-heard allegations as "facts" and stating them in a snide manner that implies anything emanating from America is automatically and self-evidently corrupt and evil.

I myself am a severe critic of US policy in many, many of these matters - but I am equally a severe critic of websites and writers whose purpose and method is the spewing of vitriolic hatred and package-deal condemnation, and I make no apology for stating clearly that such expressions are not welcome on this site ... whether the hatred is directed at Jews or Masons or the Catholic Church or Muslims or the USA ... or even terrorists or the CIA! Hatred and the spewing of ugly emotions and condemnation is not a contribution to peace, no matter WHO the hatred is directed toward. Never has been and never will be. Hatred NEVER promotes peace and understanding, no matter what side it's on. And this website IS about peace and understanding. And love.

So Terri and Aries ... and Jwhop and Joyce ... and everyone here with strong opinions and impassioned beliefs, PLEASE step up to the plate and express those opinions, whether you think they are "popular" or not ... that is VERY important to the process of peace, and understanding, and freedom. If the American patriots here let themselves be run off because they are disgusted by the "anti-American" sentiments of some ... or if the folks who view the actions of the American military/intelligence/executive powers as in the service of a world-conquering imperialism let themselves be run off because they are disgusted by the "my country right or wrong, and it's always right" sentiments of others ... then NO ONE is served ... except those who have always profited by the "divide and conquer" strategy of pitting human against human so we don't notice the primrose path we're being led down.

My apologies to everyone who has perceived my insistence on mutual respect and reasoned discussion as "censorship" of any kind, or who conversely have perceived my UNwillingness to run off folks who have "absurd" contrarian viewpoints as sponsoring radicalism. In fact, my aim is simply to foster the kinds of discussions that we will HAVE to learn to handle in the world at large if we ever hope to have world peace as a reality: reasoned, respectful discussions among folks even when they disagree completely. Discussions that are aimed at working toward common understanding by sharing information and insights, not by shouting each other down with insults and emotional sloganeering, or that degenerate to empty repetitions of "you're wrong," "no, you're wrong," "no, you're wrong."

With issues this volatile - and critical - there is bound to be some amount of heat generated, and that's okay. There's also bound to be some amount of "negative" energy expressed, where "negative" is what we disagree with or don't want to hear, and that's okay too. All I ask is that we don't insult each other (or each other's countries, races, or cultures), and that we speak "as if" we were communicating with other rational individuals who have basic goodwill and who, despite the differences of opinion, want peace and love in the world. And I think that on this site, that's a valid assumption. Why on earth would anyone come here otherwise?

Love,
Greg

Sorry we crossed posts Joyce. I don't know what more I can say to make it clear that you and Jwhop and others of the "pro-American policy" faction are very welcome and wanted here. Although I and many others respect your views and value your presence, you seem to be saying essentially that "this town's not big enough" for both you and folks who radically disagree with you ... and honestly that's a position I don't understand. Feeling insulted I DO understand, and have done and continue to do everything possible to make it clear to everyone that disagreement is good but insult is not tolerated. However, if what you are saying is just that you can't be comfortable someplace where people are allowed to express views that you consider so "wrong," then there's not really much I can do about that. I think there IS another, more productive way to look at it, and some others who have not yet made up their minds about many of these issues have taken the time to step forth and say how valuable they think these discussions of very different viewpoints are. But you're the only one who can decide where you feel comfortable and where you don't. It's sad, though, because Terri was really making the same complaint, that she has been intimidated from posting because there are so many patriotic americans that she feels ostracized for criticizing US policy. Why do people feel like they have to be around only people who AGREE with them to feel comfortable? I don't understand that at all, and frankly it doesn't bode well for world cooperation. If the only recourse when there are folks around who strongly disagree with us is to take our ball and go home ... well, it's very depressing.

For the record, I didn't chastise jwhop for talking to you instead of me. I complained about the fact that he raised some points and asked some questions, which I went to great length to answer, and then when he came back on the board he talked to you about people who express views like mine without responding to me at all ... which I did think was rude. Nothing to do with him preferring your company to mine at all, I don't blame him for that.

Still hope to keep seeing you around.

Love,
Greg

Hi all,

This time I grok everybody's motif. I sincerely hope nobody "goes," and I sincerely hope everybody feels free to express their viewpoints. I've got this viewpoint about these kind of clashes:

Part of what gets in all of our ways is this whole societal politeness thing about "You don't talk religion or politics in social situations." So we, probably all of us, to one extent or another, feel like we're going out on a limb a bit when we do express our feelings about these things, and also have a particular sensitivity to being offended by what others say on these topics.

I really consciously, purposely, busted through the religion taboo several months ago, and I know I got hurt feelings myself and caused hurt feelings in others when I did that, and the hurt feelings were not part of what I was intending, and I think (I hope!) for everyone they are healed, but my point is that I'm not surprised it's happening now with the political taboo. Terri, I absolutely support you in wanting to bust through the taboo (It's societal, for really the whole world) and be able to be honest.

And I'm also sure Sabra feels clobbered by you, which I know is not your intent. The idea of our language and ideas helping to create our world, which Sabra brought up, has some valuable truth in it, taken in moderation, which I know is how Sabra takes it. I have, personally, fought for both sides of that question. We do have some power of creativity through thoughts and their expression in words. But it's not, of course, the full deal. There are other powers in action too.

Aries, though, hon. Sometimes you're so hard-ass, and I have developed quite a lot of affection for you, and I readily admit sometimes I'm hard-ass too.

So, I'll just ask you to look at these couple of things you said:

"The people of the US have been duped, plain and simple." Oh, shit, girl, and you haven't? Puhleeze. Which Americans do you mean? Greg? Me? All the ordinary Joes I was talking to in the smoking car of the train? There were like 20 of us Joes and Janes in there, discussing -- I'm not shitting you -- constitutional rights, which then eased into a discussion of a potential attack on Iraq. No one, not even the two guys who had been in the service, was waving any flags. Everyone had extreme reservations about what was going on with our rights and with our country's plans re: Iraq. So unless you're going to tell me you've interviewed every American, I'm gonna roll my eyes at you when you, from your location outside our country, tell me what's going on with the people of my country.

And how about your telling Joyce it's time to "deal with her?" Huh? That sounds like something a bad cop or a villain in a movie would say. How about, time to talk with her?

That's not censorship. That's just recognizing that you may not actually be the world's foremost authority on Americans and that (thankfully ) you're not a bully who needs to "deal with" someone, lol.

I don't like to talk politics nearly as much as I like to talk beliefs. (Chiron at 1 degree Pisces...maybe that comes into play.) But I think we should be able to do it, just as we have become able to talk religion. And I think all of us who do it, as givers or receivers of communication, would do well to keep in mind we're all going to be kind of sensitive about it.

Now I just want to say, Canadians are a bunch of dupes who've been led around by their noses by wealthy evil conspirators. I think I'm going to go up to Canada and deal with some of those dupes.

Thankyewverymuch,
Love,
Maria

No offence taken of course Greg! And I for one, wont be leaving any time soon..lol. Sorry,the shoulders are bigger than that.

The below is my opinion only...not necessarily the opinion of anyone else here..
To clarify..I DO believe events of the world are going according to plan,and what was written I think it was written to aid us in making proper free will choices. Again, I revert back to what Hancock said last night.."everyone knows right from wrong in their heart". The tricky part is what part to listen to.
Ancient hebrew prophets were in tune with God...thats the difference...they understood proper free will choices,and they prayed and meditated and were shown things. I dont even know what the big deal is anyway..whats death..its only a cross-over. We arent truly "finished"..I thought most here believed that.
Theres things happening on other levels which we dont understand on this plane..but now I understand about how things are going according to some kind of grand design.
I consider it similar to a test..a test to see if we make the proper free will choices of chosing love over hate...to chose seeing all as one color,rather then the race wars we are being almost forced to endure,etc.
And its all for growth and evolution. (IMO of course!)

However, everyone has their own KARMIC obligation to deal with in this world. As an aries loaded in aquarius(moon/mars) and a pisces venus...well, if you catch my drift...I doubt this is the first life Ive had where I debated the system and all that is corrupt,and indeed I am again traveling this time around with others I did it with before..some of us just FEEL it to the bones.
Some of us arent meant to sit with our heads in the sand...and Ive also come to the conclusion,some arent even meant to see whats going on with things such as a NWO,etc.
So thats THEIR karmic obligation I would guess.

Isnt this where astrology and understanding each other thru their charts comes in? Heavy laden virgo likes to teach, a libra likes to be a peacemaker,etc,etc.

None-the-less,its true..we need forums like this to share the info..and when I post something, I dont expect everyone to BELIEVE the posted URL,etc. Its meant for the sharing of viewpoints...so I apologize if I came across wrong in that way. In the last one I posted..I didnt particularily care for the language,etc people used..but I DID have to sit up and take note,as you also noticed..that it wasnt an american hang-out which was targeted in Bali.

Its important for us all to take notice of how things are manifesting in this world...not sit behind and wave the flag...no matter WHAT country we live in. Not one of them is perfect!

oh gawd..I went over this and edited it and tried to speak properly...I hope it came across ok..