Sorry Maria..crossed posts there as I spent a half hour editing my own..LOL
It doesnt bother me what you had to say about Canadians,as IF you read my post earlier today..you'de see I said almost the same thing!
Theres only ONE difference...its NOT our country who was attacked,and its NOT our country who has almost declared war on Iraq. So I dont think its too comparable. Canada already had the basis of the NWO years ago,when they (and I will say they,as I didnt vote for Free Trade..they ,meaning the government) signed to agree with Free Trade. Now they are kicking themselves..trust me! This is what is meant by being duped.

Now I'll go back and edit "deal" to "talk to". Sorry about that, I havent professed to be perfect. Doubt Ide be on this planet if I was...

Joy

I'm glad you replied with this quote from jwhop:
"Sorry Greg but no reasonable person can have a dialogue on this site when posters like Aries and the rest of the America haters post drivel so patently full of rumor, innuendo, supposition, distortion and outright lies without a shred of proof."

That is EXACTLY the type of statement that has been making my blood boil. For one thing, I don't recall anyone personally insulting you or your friends, and for another, I don't ever recall Aries saying she hates America, nor have I heard that from anyone else here. So from my perspective that statement is as "patently full of rumor, innuendo, supposition, distortion and outright lies without a shred of proof", as anything Aries or the America-haters (which I assume includes me) have ever said.

And what really irks the hell out of me is that when you and when jwhop both started making the 'I'm leaving the site' noises and stamping your feet - I made the strong (and sincere) effort to try and show both of you that your views and opinions are welcome and needed here. You see me saying the same stuff and reach for the knife to twist it a bit farther. Thanks for that.

Love,
Terri

Hi All

I am simply not politically informed. Politics bores the heck out of me. So, I suppose that is why I don't post that much. But, I read, oh, do I read. Not a day doesn't go by that I don't pop into the forums and read.

So, my take is pretty much what Sabra, jwhop and Joyce write about. What they say seems more agreeable to me than what the rest say. Oh, and Greg, actually, you always interest me with what you have to say. I think what it boils down to is semantics and how the words come across. Some of the others seem to be really hard nosed and seem like they have blinders on. How do you reply to something like that without feeling all riled up?

The problem with the written word, the inflection, body language and eye contact is missing. But, that doesn't mean the message still can't be delivered in a harmonious and tactful manner. Some people just have better talent at the written word in discussions that tend to be "hot topics".

So, as I read what jwhop posted, I thought it was kind, articulate and respectful. When Greg came back with his reply about rudeness, well, it seemed to me that it was Ego that was hurt. But that is only my opinion, because as a silent reader, I didn't see any inference to Greg and I wondered why Greg took it that way. It seemed a matter of subjective interpretation and somehow the part about being objective was lost. It never occured to me to think jwhop was indicating Greg at all. Why? Because Greg, you are the most diplomatic person in all your explanations, reasonings and opinions, it is always delightful for me to read your posts.

Also, as I posted earlier, I happen to like George Bush. I don't know why, perhaps because our charts blend and I see in him what the others don't happen to see. A human being who loves his country, his wife, his children, his parents. A human being who happens to have a public job that will get lots of criticism. Ask me what his politics are, and I will flunk big time, cause I don't know. Does that make me a poor excuse for a US citizen? I sure hope not, I didn't like Clinton because he was an adulterer. I hate cheating men, plain and simple. I always held the belief in my heart and head that if a man cheats on his wife, he will cheat on his country. That is just me, I would never expect anyone to believe what I do.

So, I mostly read and when I feel like replying, it is because someone posted something that pushed my buttons and I want to defend, but I keep silent because I understand that it would just be a big old mess of back and forth personalized opinions. On the other hand, when I see posts by Sabra, jwhop and Joy, well, I want to jump in and back them up, but most of the time I don't. Because I see what happens to them, and we are in the minority here. Besides, politics just isn't my forte.

I don't want us to go to war with Iraq. I have two nephews in the service. One in the Marines and one in the Air Force. I don't want us to go to war with Iraq because I think war is stupid. War hurts innocent lives, disrupts communities, nations. I have read that it boosts the economy though, and that to me, is a real stupid reason for war. I have this grand desire and wish for the world to be united in love, peace and harmony, to recognize the spirit in each human being and lifeform on this Earth. I put lots of energy in good thoughts for our country, all nations, the entire globe, the universe. That is all I can do because I am not an economist, a politician, an activist or a news media person.

Besides, there is a lot to learn by reading what is said here, so ultimately, it feels like I am in the "Politics 101" course and I guess that is a good thing.

Now, Joy, you mentioned my name and look what happened, LOL, I made a post.

And Maria, what can I say, I simply love you!!!!

Oh, and Aries, your sense of humor does shine through a lot of the time, I like that!!!

Well, I always worry that I will say something to offend someone, I never intend that and I sure hope I didn't. Just wanted to add the perspective I got from reading.

Donna

Greg -

I just speant the last hour writing a reply to you - seriously, it was an hour....only to loose the post because I wasn't logged in. Which sucks! The program should give you the option to log in, before just telling you you can't proceeed after you hit 'Continue' and expect that your post is going through.

Anyway - maybe it's for the best. I have seen in the meantime a post from Donna, who am sure means well, but what I sense is happening here is an attempt at making this into a grouping of two sides, us againist them, and I don't feel like playing that game.

The one thing I remember that I really want to say is this - what these guys who think I am so rotten for burstng thier little bubbles don't relize is that I do it for them, as talking and sharing here is one of the few ways I can fight for freedom. So that in 20 years when they wave their little flags, they'll have something worth waving them over. I certainly don't post my thoughts or opinions with the expectation of being 100% agreed with all the time - how boring - I just want to be treated like a person around here. I just want people to try a little harder to not take things so bloody personally. If I say something about GW's implication in a oil-business conspiracy to upset the power balance in the mid-east, then I don't expect to be called an America-basher. Since when was GW 'AMERICA'? People react like I've just called their mother a slag. THAT's the type of repressive, censorship vibe I am getting around here. Not from anything you have said about refraining from being overly negitive or boxing in the furture with doomsday thoughtforms, but the annoying and petty censorship a la political correctness. I'm not playing that game anymore. And if people say I have driven them out of here, than I say this - I am one 28-year old woman (kid to most of you) with almost no post-secondary education, no friend of influential people, no great wealth behind me, no secret powers, living hundreds of miles away - in a forgein bloody country to boot, with some off-beat, perhapes unsettling opinions. I am not to American patriots, what a stake and clove of garlic is to a vampire. If you stop posting because of me, than it's about the most ridiculous thing I can imagane, because at the end of the day all I want to do is talk. That's it. Not pin your eyelids open and force you to read David Icke like some scene from Clockwork Orange, just talk. No one has to belive me. But I have to be allowed to speak my mind. I'm not here to high-five a bunch of people who think just like me. I could get off the computer and do that in real life if I needed that kind of ego boost.

Love,
a-still-pretty-pissed-off-Terri

Maria

I really do hope Sabra doesn't feel 'clobbered' by me. It's not him I was / am getting pissed of by. He just has the unfortunate distinction of being the person whose post it was that made me realize what was bugging me here. As I said above, it's this repressive vibe of political correctness.

The thing that's ironic too, is that I spend a fair bit of time talking to Americans, both on-line and in real life. Everyone except the group here aren't offened when I talk about these things. Shocked maybe, dubious - but not persoanlly offended. And they shuoldn't be. I don't know why on here it's become some big 'anti-American' positin to belive in the NWO. Shit, I listen to Art Bell several times a week, that's a pretty popular show, and most people on there consider it to be pro-American and pro-democracy to be educated and fighting an attempts by a NWO take-over. So why is it different here?

I wish we could all figure that out.

Love,
Terri

PS "Now I just want to say, Canadians are a bunch of dupes who've been led around by their noses by wealthy evil conspirators. I think I'm going to go up to Canada and deal with some of those dupes. " Yup, we're a bunch of dupes being led around by their noses by the Americans!

Hi there, pretty pissed off Terri, 28-year-old woman with a special place in my heart and my unbursted bubble. If people posting here have little bubbles you want to burst and little flags they're waving that you want to scorn, maybe you too have bubbles and little flags? I even have a papal flag I'm rather fond of, although I'm sure a lot of people think THAT's a little much.

I know it feels these days so urgent to get people moving toward a global solution for humanity's condition. It feels like the whole world and life and all that is of worth hangs in the balance. It sure feels that way to me. And I know how really deeply GOOD you are Terri. I really know that about you. And so, using my analogy, that I picked up from yours, I think I can safely say that the little flag you're waving no doubt is, for you, the flag of enlightenment. So, most of us here probably feel we're on paths of enlightenment and wouldn't embrace flags any less worthy.

I think my flags come from a different piece of the same cloth as yours. And Joyce's flags may come from a different area again, and yet that's the same cloth too. I'm probably about in the middle of you two in this segment of the political spectrum or whatever.

But I don't think our degree of spirituality is in a 1:1 relationship that depends on our "religion," and, by the same token, I don't think our degree of enlightenment about what's really happening in life in a larger, societal, global sense, is in a 1:1 relationship that depends on our "politics."

I think darn near all of us here are pretty awake and striving, imperfectly, to be more so. I think it's the implication that some are not so that is the thing that most hurts people and makes them want to say fu you and leave. (Well, that and personal picking on, but I don't think there's a lot of personal picking on in this thread.)

Taking me for example, because it's safer to use me than someone else, I may have my own bubbles and flags... (that's what they're saying at the tail end of I Am the Walrus... "Got one, got one, everybody's got one. Everybody's got one. Everybody's got one.") ...but I'm not some dupe, and neither is Joyce or Sabra, and neither are you or Aries...

I understand your being pissed off, because you want to make things better in the world. It's frustrating!

IMHO, I honestly don't think people on this thread are trying to pull apart into sides NOW, lol. I think because you said something like, "Dammit, this is pissing me off, let's get honest here," people are stating where they honestly are with this, because there's been this underlying tension on these topics for awhile.

I love you, Terri.

ARIES -- I hugely admire your ability to receive communication just exactly the way it's intended, without twisting it on the way in. THANK YOU for such a straight approach and response to what I said! Love

DONNA -- Gee, thanks!! I love you too!

Love,
Maria

What a wise and compassionate peacemaker you are, Maria.

Well Donna now that you've let the cat out of the bag about how to hook you into posting, we'll probably do that more often!

Actually my complaint to jwhop was no big thing, and he apologized graciously and that was that. But you're probably right, I'm sure there was an ego reaction on my part, and I think I know where it came from.

I am in a unique position here by being able to identify strongly with both "sides" of this issue (and you're right Terri, we should NOT be thinking in terms of sides, but that is where a lot of these problems seem to be coming from) because I have both a deeply patriotic loyalty to the American system and a deeply held conviction about the money-and-power machinations behind the scenes of the current situation that is based on nearly 40 years of serious personal research into these areas (that doesn't mean that I'm correct in my beliefs, but it does mean that they are not merely glib and ill-informed). So like Terri but perhaps even more personally, I feel insulted when folks lump everyone who questions the integrity or motives of current American leaders into the bag of "America haters," 'cause it just ain't so. Were all the folks who said Nixon was a crook "America haters?" I don't think so. Were the folks who impeached Clinton for lying under oath (or even those who just judged him a dishonorable man because he was a dishonorable husband) "America haters?" I don't think so. I am probably as staunch a supporter and defender of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights as you will find anywhere in the world, and have been since I was a very small child. I KNOW these documents, and I know the lives and convictions of the patriots who drafted them, and I can tell you for sure that there is no HINT of a sentiment in them that mistrust of government is unpatriotic! To the contrary, the folks who created this country all deeply mistrusted government themselves, including the government that they were creating ... that's why they put the vast bulk of their creative energy into explicitly limiting government, deliberately witholding from it significant power over citizens lives, deliberately "breaking up" what power they DID give it into separate branches, each of which could effectively restrain the other branches, deliberately reserving for individual citizens and individual states (in that order) ALL powers not explicitly granted to the government. Because they didn't trust it worth a damn!

America was never a nation created by or for those who trusted government, and absolutely not by those who felt that criticizing the government or its leaders or policies was "unpatriotic." And that, in my opinion, is the source of America's greatness.

So when I hear folks who talk about defending the Constitution or loving what America stands for call those who mistrust our leaders or question our policies "treasonous" or "America haters," it makes me identify with Thoreau when he was jailed for civil disobedience in refusing to pay a tax he believed was unjust ... when asked by Emerson "my dear Thoreau, why are you in jail?" he replied, "my dear Emerson, why are you NOT in jail?"

I do believe the critics of those policies have a responsibility to state their criticisms rationally, and to present credible evidence for their criticisms rather than hysterical accusations and unsupported assertions if they expect to be taken seriously ... and I recognize that there is a lot of the latter in the world today, and I don't like that any more than Joyce or jwhop or Sabra or any other American. But I also think the idea that being a loyal American precludes mistrusting or critcizing the government is a mistaken idea of what America is really all about ... and may in fact be a dangerously mistaken idea.

I want the loyal Americans to listen to the critics of American policy, whether Americans or non-Americans. Not necessarily to agree, but listen as if the critics were worthy of being heard and thought about, which in many cases we are. And I want the critics of America to listen to those who are fiercely loyal to this country and the principles it was built on, not necessarily to agree, but to listen as if America wasn't merely a nation of predatory capitalists and gun-running, oil-controlling, dictator-supporting imperialists or complacent self-indulgent xenophobes, which the VAST majority of us are not. Dialog and respect, folks. As I see it, it's the only way we'll get from here to there. As Maria said so well, it's not the disagreements that are causing all this tension, it's the perception that we get that those who disagree with us think we are dupes (or ignorant, ill-informed, and ill-intentioned) that makes any of us think "who needs this, I don't want to be here!"

None of us are dumb. None of us are motivated by hatred or avarice or deceit. We are all good people who want fervently to make the world a better place. Perhaps my desire to make sure we communicate without giving the impression that we are "putting down" those we disagree with is the source of the "politically correct repression" you are feeling, Terri ... I hope not ... but I do believe we can all do that without sacrificing our convictions ... and I think it's VERY worthwhile.

Love,
Greg

Thanks, Donna. You always seem to come out of nowhere, and always when I am particularly fed-up. You make a lot of sense to me. Always have.

I want to make perfectly clear why I am annoyed. Jwhop stated that he enjoyed this site, but felt that he could no longer post in the community section. He tried to gracefully exit. Right after his post, Aries comes in with:

Poster: Aries
Subject: Re: Does anyone know WHY the US may be "attacking" Iraq??

Here an interesting read about the Bali blasts. Im warning a few of you now this is about concerns the US had a hand in it, so if you dont want to get your blood a boilin'..dont go there!
See ya all in a couple of days..Im outta here for the weekend.

http://www.voxnyc.com/archives/00000033.htm

.."Bali Disco Bombing - Another US "Inside Hit."
Introducing the "Link" and "Pivot" bombs
or
Looks like another US Military/Intelligence Black Op
by voxfux"

Come on! Kick the guy right out. No diplomacy whatsoever. Stick the pin in. You can be one lawnmower, Aries. You talk about your intuition. Couldn't you feel that he was on the cusp of staying/leaving? You certainly don't seem to hear anyone else. It is always the same old doomsday story with you (and the US behind everything that is wrong, evil, bad). It gets old.

Maria, I guess you are one of the reasons why I guess I am still posting.


Joyce

Let it go Joy..come on, use your aries moon..

No, Aries. It is not time for my Aries moon to let it go. Several people have posted that your following comments were entirely inappropriate:



Poster: Aries
Subject: Re: Does anyone know WHY the US may be "attacking" Iraq??

Here an interesting read about the Bali blasts. Im warning a few of you now this is about concerns the US had a hand in it, so if you dont want to get your blood a boilin'..dont go there!
See ya all in a couple of days..Im outta here for the weekend.

http://www.voxnyc.com/archives/00000033.htm

.."Bali Disco Bombing - Another US "Inside Hit."
Introducing the "Link" and "Pivot" bombs
or
Looks like another US Military/Intelligence Black Op
by voxfux"

Aries, you need to think a little before posting such things. You have anything like an Aries moon in your chart? It would help you to figure out when you have crossed the line. It would go a long way when in creating goodwill here.

Terri -

My intuition skills - well, I suppose they are not that great, after all. I can't figure you out. You stated:

"I am one 28-year old woman (kid to most of you) with almost no post-secondary education, no friend of influential people, no great wealth behind me, no secret powers, living hundreds of miles away - in a forgein bloody country to boot, with some off-beat, perhapes unsettling opinions."

Why did you say that?

1. Are you proud of those characteristics?
2. Do you feel sorry for yourself?
3. Do you think people fear you?
4. Do you feel you have no control of your life, and trampled on by others, - the people who have more?
5. Or, are you just telling it like it is, or as you see it?

As far as I can see, and I could be wrong - you have everything going for yourself. You just won't STEP OUT. You are smart and warm-hearted. Even when I am furious with you, some of me wants to give you a hug at the same time. Maybe, just occasionally, you could focus on what is right and not what is wrong. It might do you some good.

And, Terri, have you been holding back on some of your comments here? Lord help me. If that is holding back, I hope I have the strength to read some of your future posts, when you no longer feel oppressed.

Joyce

Joyce, I wont be posting to you anymore until you have calmed down,..sorry but its a drain on my energies.
You can take that anyway you want to now. I FEEL you are mainly here now to turn others against me..hence I need to ingore that for now. Something I havent done and thats intentionally personally attack someone else here, unlike how I FEEL you are doing. Sorry if you dont understand. Thats all Im sorry for.

Hi All, this may seem out of the current dialog, but it took me over an hour to write, so there were other posts in between. But, what I wrote is below the next line, which I just added.

Aries, I would almost bet it is Mercury doing the talking, with the Moon whispering in the ear.

Hi Joy, I am always glad to see you here.

Maria, ditto what Greg said!!

Greg, mostly I just read, there isn't ever enough time to post by the time I get everything read. When I was a kid, my playmates would holler at me because all I ever did was sit and read during summer break. Except when they called my name, I would put my book down and go out and see what they wanted.

Terri, I don't perceive this as "us against them". It certainly isn't how I see it. All I am saying is there are more people with similar ideas than others. Also, some posts DO come across rather strongly, that is why I wrote about body language, semantics etc.

So, how it all comes across , is the different styles in communication. Some replies are definitely passionate. Some are extremely articulate, diplomatic, some are informative and some are belief, ideals, opinion. That is what makes this so interesting to me, each individual giving their thoughts and ideals and the replies returned. Like Maria said, the same cloth, just different pieces of it, making our own indiviual flags. Put them all together, it is a beautiful masterpiece work of art.

Regarding this anti-America stuff, here is an analogy that may make some sense--did you ever hear the saying that "blood is thicker than water"? Well, most Americans may speak out against their government to each other and have ideas and thoughts about it, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty, they will stick together in shared bonding, whether their beliefs are in sync or not. This is what I saw after 9/11. This is also what I see here sometimes, when some tough things are said about America, American policies, etc. It just seems like it puts some people in a defensive mode, that's all. And Greg, you said it much better than I could ever begin to.

Currently, I am reading a book, "Rule by Secrecy" by Jim Marrs. It is jam packed full of things that are currently being discussed here. I really like this book, but there are things in it that may be true, I just don't want to believe them. That doesn't make them untrue. It just means my mind is probably closed to the possibilities until I am ready to accept them.

Can you imagine if we were all in the same room having this conversation? I think it would be great fun, and I just bet we would all have a good time getting to know each other in person. We could give our points of view, share information, discuss it with eye contact and most likely come away glad for having the experience. And just let our natal Mercuries flow, right along with our Moons, Suns, etc. And hug each other when it was all over.

Donna

Dear Delightful Donna,

You are good for everyone. Could you try to post more often? I'm so happy when I read your posts.

Aries, I don't do gang-ups. I got out of high school a long time ago, and I didn't play that game in high school, either. Not my style. You can take a break from me. That's fine. I just tell it like I see it. I must have hit a nerve. Maybe it will get you thinking a bit. Who knows?

Donna, you are right. Too bad we couldn't all get together for an evening. Maybe we would all get along just fine. Thanks.

Love,
Joyce

Joy -

First of all, can I ask why you keep bringing up the Bali-post Aries made? What are you hoping to gain from that? Embarass her? Force her into a corner and 'win' an apology? Drive her off the site? Why can't / won't you let it go? What has to happen here for that to be over?

Now, as for your attempt to figure me out...I do think you were taking a stab at bridge-building, but it also comes across as both invasive and condesending. However, as I said, I think you basically ae meaning well here, so I'll answer...

1. Are you proud of those characteristics?
Proud? There's nothing there to be proud of - but nor do I feel any shame to say that about my self.

2. Do you feel sorry for yourself?
No - should I?

3. Do you think people fear you?
In real life, never. Around here, I don't think people fear me but I do think people respond fearfully to some of the things I talk about. I wish they wouldn't, but at the end of the day that's their issue not mine.

4. Do you feel you have no control of your life, and trampled on by others, - the people who have more?
There's few out there who have more than me, in terms of anything endurable or seriously meaningful. I do feel trampled on by the people who have more money, in the sense that they are the powerful few who trample on all of us when we let them.

5. Or, are you just telling it like it is, or as you see it?
Well duh, isn't that the whole point of everything I have been trying to say here?!?!?!

Also this is good advice, "you could focus on what is right and not what is wrong" but it ignores the fact that mostly, that's what I do. I might not do so to the extent of living in a self-created nirvana, but I spend the vast proportions of my time and energy on what is right. Remember you see just a fraction of me here. You don't know about the 95% of my life that isn't here. You aren't in a position to tell me what might do me any good.

Sorry - I really didn't think I'd be back for a third day of bit**yness, but somehow Joy you crank me up, even when I can rationally recognize that you are trying to be nice, you still crank me up...I'll get over it one of these days I am sure.

Love,
Terri

Maria

Sorry I didn't respond earlier. Thanks for the wonderful post.

I just want to be clear on one thing: I don't WANT to burst people's bubbles or scorn the things that have meaning to them. If that's what's happening that I am really sorry. I'd rather people either lived happy in thier bubble, or decided to make an informed choice to pop their own bubble.

Love,
Terri

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to say that Donna and I have had many discussions about world events the past few years and there are MANY areas we do not see the same way.

But I always count on her to tell me the truth as she sees it and feels it and I "measure" it against my own. She doesn't try to "persuade" me and hopefully I don't try to change her mind either.

I think I have learned the most from people who DON'T think like I do. I love to get all kinds of perspectives and see things from all sides. But ultimately my "truth" is in my gut and that's what works for me.

A wise woman told me not too long ago that it's ok to disagree. It helps "hold the balance".

I admit I do not like how things seem to be going right now.
I don't want to go to war. I would like for humanity to be more "humane" than that. But I guess we're not there just yet but I truly believe there will be a time when we will not STUDY war any longer.
Hopefully that time is not too far away.

I don't think I believe in predictions and prophecies. I believe in "possibilites" and I'm trying to visualize the brighter ones.

Donna, I read "Rule by Secrecy" and still refer to it several times a month. I think the guy's on to something.

And I just wanted to say I enjoy EVERYONE'S point of view.
Again, it's how I LEARN.

Peggy,

That was an awfully nice post. Thank you.

Terri,

Thanks for your response, as well.

Joyce

I Love Americans
(I just have no use for the corrupt governments of any country )

yeahh!
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/10/26/us.iraq/index.html

hey Aries

you know, beyond the literal text of what you write, i must say that i always perceive your kind, genuine, loving spirit coming through your words. your message always is essentially filled with hope and real love for others. you are passionate and fair, and never once have i detected any hint of meanness or spite towards anyone, even those with whom you disagree and/or disagree with you.

of course, your literal message sometimes is not that comprehensible to me, but you always cause me to really think, even if the result of such effort is not necessarily in agreement with your convictions.

Thanks for that!

and thanks for all your contributions, positive spirit, and loving concern that shines through all your posts.

love, sapphire

thanks sapphiremoon..that was really very kind of you!

Love bless us, everyone

Hey look - we seem to have all it made through another epidsode intact That is something that bodes very well for the future after all!

Sapphiremoon - Thanks so much for writing that post about Aries. She's my dearest on-line friend, and I know that alot of people mis-understand where she is coming from. Like you, I see that she is motivated by good, and that she does try very hard to practice what she preaches. It's so nice to hear that someone else gets that too!

Love,
Terri

Terri, I thought I posted this earlier,but guess I didnt hit the "continue" bottom properly..thanks for the nice surprise!