I wish the US had initiated force to stop Hitler before WW2 and the Holocaust. I wish the US had initiated force in Afghanistan in 1999 to disrupt al-Qaeda.

It is ludicrous to think that Saddam is just sitting there, minding his own business.

Hello, Aries. Hope all is going well for you and your family.

Joyce

Joyce -

That is what I was trying to convey in my post above - thank you . I thought I was losing my sanity for a moment there .

Greg -

I agree with you that nobody should be attacking anyone for anything. I liked the way you put it in martial arts terms. Several times in this forum you and I discussed and agreed there has to be checks and balances within our own government. As Joyce said, "democracy is an experiment . . ." and "Not Perfect . . ."

But neither is this world. Not when we have the Saddam's and Hitler's on this planet. Sure, the U.S. should not be the planet police. Nor should we attack other countries willy nilly just because we believe they are going against our values. Should there be checks and balances for the world?

A lot of people thought Hitler was harmless in the beginning. After a while a lot of countries believed Hitler would not invade other countries as he promised. While it was happening a lot of people didn't want to believe his atrocious crimes against mankind. Even with the proof, there were people then as there are today that refuse to believe that there were gas chambers. If the U.S. did not join the war, would this country be as free as it is today? Would Hitler have been satisfied with just conquering Europe?

How do we defend those people that need defending or should we be isolationists. There is a fine line between isolationism and imperialism. When the Kurds spoke about Saddam like Aries did above regarding our leadership, Saddam used gas to exterminate those people. What kind of proof do we need? When I was stationed in South Korea, the locals overheard some of us talking about and at times criticizing the U.S. President. A couple of them ask me if we were allowed to do that. After I said "of course," I returned the question to them. Then one of them whispered in my ear, "No, we are not allowed to. We would be in big trouble and go to jail if we did."

Sure, a lot of Koreans, especially the younger generation want the U.S. presence out of their country. Many times we got the Korean version of the "finger". But, at the same time the older generation was "grateful" we were there. At times they would genuflect or salute us as we passed by. They knew the moment the U.S. military left their country, North Korea would invade.

Maybe it's because I like adventure and I live dangerously at times, but when I joined the military and signed the contract, I knew there would be risks involved and that I might die. Everybody that joins knows that. My father-in-law was in the Navy for 20 years. Whenever he was on sea duty he was away for six months at a time from his family and he knew that would happen when he joined.

I have come close to death three times myself in the service. I also saw two pilots get killed when their jet fighter crashed in the woods next to our runway strip. I drove the tractor-trailer to haul away the wreckage and saw their crushed helmets. I knew there would be times I would be away from my family. I was away for a full year overseas. I also knew I might be "shipped out on a secret mission, to an unknown location, and have been ordered to tell their families they will NOT be in contact for 90 days" as Aries said. In Omaha, my squadron was on alert seven times in four years with a transport plane ready to roll and take us to an unknown destination. Each time at the last second we were ordered to "stand down."

Although this country is not perfect, I am "grateful" that I joined the military so I and others can live in a country where we can speak freely and criticize our president if we want to. I am just as "grateful" for the young men and women that are in the military now.

Sabra

You make perfect sense, Sabra. Thank you for your years of service in the military. I appreciate you and thank you.

Joyce

You are welcome Joyce .

sanity restored . . .

Sabra

Idol worship is wrong. It cannot be justified. No matter how subtle one may rationalize their inabilities to understand the whole of the oneness of God, the weaknesses of man on earth does not have the power to resist all the temptations he is confronted with.
From the spiritual view, there is a detachment from the earth plane, from the material view there is the attachment to symbols. Symbols are powerful propaganda to control the mind and keep it sin centered and away from God.

God is sprit, Nature is earth. But man is caught between these worlds.
War is the absents of love. Death is death. God is God. There are no boundaries on earth or in heaven. For one to attach their spiritual power to a set of symbols representing manmade idols is the equivalent of murder, just like breaking any commandment of the Old Testament or the breaking of the new. And for any breaking of the law there is only on spiritual punishment. Death of the soul. The price of sin is death.

To be enlightened is to have spiritual awareness. This awareness comes from God.
Once enlisted as a soldier of the sprit there is no turning back, no deserting, nowhere else to go on earth. It is a lifetime commitment resulting in eternal life or eternal death.

Karma dies and the sprit is born. Death dies and life begins.
Karma is death, sprit is Love.
Understanding through knowledge of the sprit is Love.

It is not magic, it is not another place filled with imaginative idols and powers and energies and vibrations and levels. It is only we in the now, understanding our circumstances. The rest of the mess is God's business.

The only problem in the world, as it has been forever, it the lack of spiritual understanding. I it not about how nice you can be or how friendly you can be, as the sprit can discern things, or what you are doing. It is about the intentions within the heart of the sprit. And your sprit must be in sync with God's and Nature in order for you to be in a position to understand the circumstances of the moment.

Without this synchronized balance of sprit, mind and God, you will charge head first into Karma, which is death. And we are nowhere near as smart as we would like to think.
There have been many before you and me that thoht they knew, and they knew nothing.

War on this Earth cannot be justified anymore, by anyone, because the knowledge and understanding has been disseminated. To make war on this Earth is to defy God.

Welcome to the Age of Aquarius.
Where the sprit speaks the truth and the worms squirm in the dirt.

Lord

give me strength . . .

Dar..I only had time to read your very first paragraph and I agree totally!..however, maybe if I read the rest I wouldnt..sorry,no time right now/later!..check this out tonight (LIVE from the pyramids~ FOX @ 8 pm our time)
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/09/0910_020913_egypt_1.html

Maybe they'll find the Book of Life,..err, I mean the Hall of Records..

Welllllllllllllllll .................

I just returned from all these exact same conversations....only I had them 'out there'...with much worse grammer.

Some of them thar out there ain't got no good english......

Dar....I completely see what you are saying...and I understand your anger ...at how people ...as a whole...do not manage to connect the dots.....like Lisa said it's all connected.

And I share Lisa and Greg's fear of blind patriotism...way too many people hoping we will be both blind and patriotic..

But I also share the anger Joy and Sabra have....

You know....often times...when I get mad....it's after I have been incredibly sad....and I gain strength in anger.....it rallies me around and helps me think clearly....when I am sad....my emotions are too all over the place to respond with wise or healthy choices....maybe others are like that as well....???

Maybe if you get mad and DO something....and it does not have to be invade a country...it could be giving blood....it stands you back on your feet, you know?

Works for me anyway.....

Proz...theres just not a whole lot of people out there who are capable of seeing the big picture...no one has taught them how....and they just don't know.....so they swallow what is given .....

but please...Have Faith that 9/11 DID open the eyes of many many more.....and that the old methods of politics and tv just don't fly..

the coverage HAD to be on the air.....too many people have spent the last year pretending they felt nothing when they felt something really big...and they needed a safe vent for that emotion....to not utilize it, for even just kindergarten therapy, could actually bring about more problems later.

Some people never would have explored their own grief or anger or depression without that coverage.

others, like us here, chose to watch....we did it for higher reasons....reasons of understanding others.....and respecting the victims.....

there were also other gifts in the coverage....all the survival stories we have never heard......all of the life time friendships that have been made......63 babies born since then...and the first one is walking now.....

and even journalists who remembered how much they hated their jobs that day...how they struggled to let us know what was going on in those first horrible days...

I just read a book on their story....and many...not all ...but many look at their own jobs very differently now......many were caught in the outer sides of the falling towers.....and their feelings as they thought they would die...could not have been much different than the feelings of those who DID die.

I think where everyone is getting uncomfortable....is trying to connect Iraq with 9/11.

For most people it is two very different issues......one about patriotism and making sure this never happens again...the other about ego....we can all taste the ego.....and a crazy man with really bad guns.

thats not to say Saddam should not be stopped.....he should......absolutely.....

But is this the right time?...do we really know?....remember that GW said we would never hear about a lot of things......
I feel pretty certain he has kept that promise.......

And if it's really going to happen...why on earth would they be so stupid as to advertise it?...makes me feel like our military would be sitting ducks....and I am not willing to sacrifice that at this time.....

I believe we can keep him contained....so that this Hitler can never get loose on the world the way the last one did.

In the meantime...you wanting to turn off the tv and grieve in your own way....is what you needed...and what you wanted....what others did was what was right for them.

Personally I spent the entire day with Peter Jennings....and I started it with Peter and Lisa.

Having Lisa in my ear as we went thru those moments in the early morning was very special to me....because last year I was all alone...this year...I spent it with my friend.

I hope a lot of people spent the time with their friends.

I spent the day rolling in the memory of last year and cried my eyes out......cleansed my soul of the weight I had been carrying and then went to church and sang for everyone of those people who died and for all the people who were not with their special person that day....for 63 babies.

Whats most important is that everyone honored the day...for it was a day of mourning...and you did it one way...and other people did it another.....

And I would be willing to bet that just about everyone of them...spent some time thinking about how they never understood how other countries felt......

have we not all looked at it differently since then...isn't it more painful?...don't we flash back to 'our turn'?

thats growth....painful and sucky as it is....it's still growth.

Everyone here feels passionately about 9/11.....and everyone has a valid point of view.....it's so important that we listen to each other....and open our minds to all sides.....

It's like setting a good example for the kids....

As Gramma used to say..."It's all the same GOD."

Peace and much lOve to everyone,

Dani

Hi Dani,

I love it when your Pluto shows.

Love and Hugs,
Darwin

funny you say that...I was just thinking about YOUR Pluto.......

Love,

Dani

As Gramma used to say..."It's all the same GOD."

Best line on an already fantasticly interesting thread. I thought I'd keep my big Canadian nose out it for once and see what the 'merkins talk about when no one is looking You guys are all fab, and dispite my sometimes cynical comments, I know and can feel your pain. It's tangible. And we all react to pain differently. Your country is in labour folks! Some of you are reaching for the laughing gas to make it all a little rosier around the edges. Some of you got an epidural after your first contraction, just cause it hurts too damn much. And some of you feel that rushing heady sensation at the knoweledge of how birth and sex are intertwined, inseparable, and so all mixed up with the pain is a love so strong it shines in any amount of darkness from hearts that beat strong and sure, gripped by faith so powerful it can make any miracle come to pass. And new life is slowly emerging.....

I love you all!!!

Terri

PS - Sorry for the 'girly' analgy Proxy!

Terri, that was a beautiful analogy ... and so right, that's exactly what's happening!

Love,
Greg

TERRI!!!!!

That is exactly what is happening......plus you have the experience factor...the mom's who have given birth before and how different that is from your first time.....

And don't forget the episiotmy!!!!
I know I never have!!!!

Love,

Dani

....and it's a really beautiful and hope filled way to look at it......

further musings....

If war really solved anything...how come we are having this discussion?

Why isn't there already Peace?.......

kind of like the kid who does not respond to time-outs.......how long do you keep it up before you try something else?

Love,

Dani

Since Cain and Abel, there has always been war on this planet. Not to say that there can never be peace on earth.

But when you have individuals that call themselves leaders of their country that are so twisted in their thinking, they will never learn. Whether it is a child or a warped leader, no matter how many time-outs they received they are thinking, "I only received a time-out because I got caught. Next time I will do it a little different so I won't get caught."

So what do you do? Do you just throw you hands up and say to the child, "I give up, do whatever you want. I am not responsible for you anymore." Do you tell Saddam: "as long as you don't attack the U.S. do whatever you want? Anything you do is none of our business. We will just isolate ourselves and live the good old American dream."

You tell the child that doesn't respond to time-outs that there are consequences for this bad behavior and you start taking away privileges. You try to do the same with these warped leaders. But when you get someone so insane such as Saddam, who doesn't know the difference between right and wrong you take more drastic action before he does more harm.

Sabra

It is hard to understand why the last three presidents have allowed the "Butcher of Baghdad" to stay in power so long. I don't fault them; maybe their decisions seemed reasonable at the time. It does seem like the US has been turning a blind eye to Saddam, though - seeing him as the lesser evil, or flinched when we could have gotten rid of him. Don't know why we have tolerated a monster. It is hard to believe that, during most of the 1980s, America knowingly permitted the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission to import bacterial cultures that might be used to build biological weapons. It happened, though. He has even used poison gas on his own people.

Pretty scary cause we can't contain Saddam. He doesn't necessarily have to worry about a "return address" after releasing weapons of mass destruction. After the 11th, it seems pretty obvious that he could use terrorists (not tracing back to him) to deploy his weapons.

Guess this just illustrates the power of past wishful thinking, as well as the iron law of unintended consequences.

Sabra, again you make perfect sense. And again, thanks for "walking the walk" - so that the rest of us can keep "talking the talk".

Joyce

"It is hard to understand why the last three presidents have allowed the "Butcher of Baghdad" to stay in power so long."

It's even harder for me to understand why a US citizen feels their presidents have the power and right to control the actions and course of other soverign nations.

Love,
Terri

BTW - I served in the military too. But that doesn't mean I feel the power of might shoulf ever supercede the force of right.

I guess the difference in perspective here is that realistically the "soverign nations" are all a part of the world community, and if they insist on infringing upon and even harming people of other nations they have to accept the consequences of their actions. No one will be allowed to kill people to further their own political goals and big egos. If they do they no longer can claim any rights in the court of world opinion. This is not about nation-to-nation legal issues, it is about what is right and what is wrong. And guess what --- this is not so hard to understand!!!

Joyce

"No one will be allowed to kill people to further their own political goals and big egos."

Joy -
Of course not! But are you talking about the hawks in Bush's administration here, or Hussen? My only point that I want to make is that perspective is everything and we have to be very very careful to not go down the same road as the people we condem (and with good reason!). It wasn't too long in the American evolutionary process that it killed it's own people (natives) or unjustly imprisoned it's citizens (internment camps in WW1 and 2). (And Canada did the same thing, so I am not bashing the US at all here, just making a point)

When terrorists attacked us (the whole western world was symbolized in the WTC buildings) they did so in condemnation of and protest against our greed, our perceived heathenism, our occupation of their holy lands, our perceived domination of and interfernce in other people's/countries right to self-determination. We say, what right have they to viciously attack us for our values and lifestyles that we hold dear? What right have they to use fear and intimidation, on our own turf especially, to make this protest, that really we don't even understand? What right have they to kill us (civilians) for policies and events that were never ours to control anyway. And rightly so. We didn't deserve that attack. We didn't deserve the fear and pain and grief and worry. So we'll even stand blindly behind an un-elected president and support with our silence 1000's of secret arrests, deported students, a war waged in far-off places that kill innocents men, women and children, if that's the price to pay to ensure we aren't judged in that violent fashion ever again. But why can't people see that war, violence, is a never-ending self-perpetuating cycle of hate and emnity. Why do otherwise rational, spritiual, kind and lovely people call for blood to be shed for nothing more than vengenance?

"When you are powerful like we are, that's the time to be nice."J. Cretien

I couldn't agree more. We are bound by our love of democracy and our desire to see a democratic world to obey the laws we have created for ourselves. If the war-happy element of the current US govn't gets it's way and invades Iraq without UN support and the backing of the international comunity, than in fact, what will happen will only fuel the desires of these kids who want to grow up to be bombs. They think they are bombing tyrants, just like we think we are too.

Love,
Terri

and guess what, guys - the train is just about to stop at the LindaLand station- we all have to hop in the train together and move in another direction..time to change the scene and leave the politic to the politics

Terri for new PM of Canada!!
Actually, Im serious.
And wiser words from Chretien, no one has spoken (recently).

Heres a quiz..
Since so many feel its necessary for Saddam ro die, why will so many innocent civilians,as well as military from many countries also be killed?

I mean, how hard could it be to get one man??
Makes one wonder...
Its not going to stop at Saddam people. Face it. We were told back in Sept "it would stop when Usama was caught"
What a load of horse poo.

Joy.....(((HUG)))...I think the point I get stuck at...is not the message...it's the messenger.

Molly Ivens recently did an article....that said...the reason they let him get by with violating the regulations the UN gave him for the last 10 years...is because people like Cheney we're doing business behind the scenes and there was money to be made.

See...I don't think it's wrong to want him out....although part of me does not like the way it feels when I picture how'd I'd feel if some other country came to my yard and said..."hey we've been checking your situation out...and we think the guy in charge is wrong for you...and you'd be a heckuva lot happier with this new guy we chose ."

Even if I hated my president.....I would fight back at that.

And I do not doubt for a second...that the Iraqi hate and fear Saddam....and when a country is taken over by a person as evil as he is...the whole world should unite to remove him and free the people.

The problem is...a few people in charge...not just the USA but all over the world....always pick making money over making right....thats how Saddam has stayed in power all this time....and has had time to build the kind of war machine he has....

Now we are ALL stuck trying to figure a way out of this mess...and we DO have to figure a way out.

leaving him is not an option....and right now taking him out this second is not an option either.

We have to go in as a Unified WORLD ...not just a world power.....otherwise...once again our motives will be in question....and that will lead to more violence.

It's a pickle all right......

Sabra.....we hit on a theme here......When Joanne was little....time outs were a waste of time.....she's triple fixed....by the time you finished KEEPING her in the chair...no one remembered what she had been sent there for in the first place.
Once when I sent her to her room...she pulled all the curtains off the wall...now that she's older...removing freedoms works best...but as a kid....it never worked.

Now Andrea.....all you have to do is whisper in her ear...and her eyes get big...and whatever WAS stops. Period.

Courtney....well you have to catch her first...and once you do...it's straight talk...eye to eye contact...and sometimes a tugged collar as I get closer for my point.
But she's the same kid...who as soon as you told her to stay right with you...was off like a shot...and laughing the whole time..."catch me if you can old lady!"

Each one of these kids had their own way about them.....and if time-outs don't work....then we do something else.

But I can't help but feel ...that like my triple fixed kid....the obvious is not the way.
When I wanted that child to pick the color blue for her room.....I gave her several selections of yellow to choose from and told her it was yellow or nothing.

It's a very pretty and soothing blue now. and she's happy because she got her own way.

My point is...there must be some other way....(((HUG)))like covert manipulation....and messing with his head....make him choose a yellow...and 'give in' to blue.....there must be some other way.....otherwise...our guys are sitting ducks out there....

I've seen enough of GW's charts to give me insomnia for weeks......maybe the answer is not there...maybe the answer is in Saddams chart....?

Whos' up for that?...anyone have his info?

Love and PEACE!!!!!

Dani