On another note, theres a Nostradamus quatrain that could very well be talking about Saddam. This is the reference to "Mabus" in C2 Q62 . Nosty scholar John Hogue, in his newest book called The Essential Nostradamus, gives us a few different names this could be,.. considering the usage of anagrams (a "code" Nosty used, or perhaps just the way the visions were presented to him!)
Hogue cites:
~Saddam
~Arafat
~Usama
~and lasty but not least, B*sh.
If its Saddam, as I personally suspect it is, then be prepared for all hell to break loose. By the way, this piece of work by Nosty matches/parallels prophecy in the book of Daniel.
--------------------
C2 Q62 (english)
"mabus" then will soon die, there will come
of people and beasts a horrible rout:
then suddenly one will see vengeance,
hundred, hand, thirst, hunger when the comet will run.

(french, original version)
mabus plustost alors mourra, viendra,
de gens & bestes vn horrible defaite:
puis tout à coup la vengeance on verra,
cent, main, faim quand courra la comete.

( the point being, perhaps it IS meant to happen,in order to get us to our next evolutionary stage.)

I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head with this, Dani: the question is not whether a brutal dictator should be opposed and disarmed, of course he should! That's not attack, it's defense ... and a defense that's important to the freedom and well-being of innocent human beings everywhere. The question is, who is doing this action, and what are their motives? Because that has everything to do with whether a particular action is right or wrong, and whether its results will be a safer and more peaceful world or a more brutal and dangerous one.

As you quite rightly point out, Joyce,

quote:

---

It is hard to believe that, during most of the 1980s, America knowingly permitted the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission to import bacterial cultures that might be used to build biological weapons. It happened, though.

---

Eisenhower warned us about the dictatorial potential of the military-industrial complex when he left office ... but Americans have forgotten that warning, and that complex has grown so large and powerful that it effectively presents itself as "America" today, but it's NOT America, it's a gang of criminals who spout patriotism out of one side of their mouths while stuffing profits from arms sales and deals with dictators into its corporate coffers.

These are the folks I'm afraid of. These are the folks I don't want roaming the world attacking whoever they have determined is a terrorist (on the sole discretion of the executive branch of government without our knowledge or say-so in the matter). These folks are NOT defenders of what's good and right, they are power-seeking profiteers.

Sure we need to protect ourselves - and the world - against brutal dictators. But I don't trust the people who are behind the current war on terrorism any farther than I trust Hussein, they are all members of the same club, the grab-power-and-money-while-spouting-noble-rhetoric club. We'd best beware ALL these folks.

Love,
Greg

Ok, how about that link to Saddams chart..

Saddam Hussein's chart on AtroDatabank

Love,
Greg

BTW Aries, why don't you ever spell out Bush? Just curious...

You classify Bush and Saddam in the same club???????????? You really do????? You really think that makes sense? God.

Terri,

Yes, you are absolutely right. The US has made serious mistakes in its history - many. Every other existing country has, as well. So your logic would be that because we have various countries (including Canada) making many many mistakes, that Saddam is allowed to also make mistakes? ONly fair kind of thing? Makes no sense, not when we have practically all agreed that Saddam is a very dangerous and perhaps crazed person - arguably comparable to Hitler.

This is also a person who is on the brink of developing weapons of mass destruction, if he hasn't already. THERE WOULD BE A BIG DIFFERENCE IN MISTAKE LEVELS - Huh? Anyone else see that? Your kids might not be around because of his mistake.

Maybe, but maybe, the weapons' inspectors who have been supposedly allowed back in will help to sort this all out. Who wants war? Not me. Sometimes true evil must be stopped, though - IN DEFENSE. He is looking pretty evil to me. Putting Bush and Saddam in the same league sounds pretty insane to me, also. Like - totally nuts and an incredibly irresponsible thing to say.

Dani,

You are sweet.

Joyce

Joyce

quote:

---

First they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist

Then they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not Jewish

Then they came for the Trade Unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Trade Unionist

Then they came for the Catholics
and I did not speak out
because I was a Protestant

Then they came for me
and and by that time no one
was left to speak up

by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945

---

The son of a pastor, a U-Boat Captain (WWI) and later a pastor in a comfortable Berlin Suburb in the 1930s Niemöller did not start out as a great advocate for intellectual freedom. He initially supported Hitler but quickly grew disillusioned.

Pastor Niemoller was a German cleric who spoke from the pulpit against the Third Reich in the early thirties after the churches had been instructed to dispense Nationalist Socialist propaganda. Niemoller noticed that his fellow clerics who did not follow the Party line had started to 'disappear'.

Although arrested by the Gestapo in 1937 for his open opposition to Hitler and incarcerated in Sachsenhausen and Dachau concentration camps, he nonetheless berated himself for not doing more, as in the quote above. He was able to escape to the U.S.A. where he lived till 1984.

Sabra

This is not speculation, but documented historical fact. The assets of the Union Banking Corporation were seized in 1942 under the "Trading with the Enemy Act," but the assets of the American partners in the firm (including Bush) were later "unfrozen" and only the Nazi partners were permanently confiscated. That's only one small incident of many, in fact the bulk of the Bush family fortune came from the Nazi financing project. The family was highly - and publicly - active in the international "eugenics" movement (read "master race genetic purity") that supported Hitler's racial aims, until the onset of World War II forced them to move their support behind the scenes.

After the war, it was the Bush-Harriman alliance that was largely responsible for converting the wartime OSS to the new Central Intelligence Agency, despite bitter congressional opposition on the grounds that it would constitute an "American Gestapo." Family associate Allen Dulles was its initial director, and one of its first operations was "Project Paperclip," a secret project which enlisted former Nazi intelligence agents and scientists in the new CIA. It was not until 30 years later that the existence of Project Paperclip was even known to the American people, but its official records (what ones that have not been destroyed) are now available through the freedom of information act, and the fact that a large percentage of the original CIA operative were former Nazi agents is now acknowledged.

Our President's father (George Herbert Walker Bush) was an early director of the CIA who used these Nazi assets to set up CIA projects in Mind Control (Project Monarch/MKUltra) as well as numerous biological and psychological warfare projects that were essentially continuations of pre-existing Nazi programs.

I won't keep going, but this is just the tiniest tip of the iceberg, and literally thousands of reliable documented sources for this information exist. In a nutshell, it is no wonder that Bush's daddy was behind the Iran/Contra drug-running and arms-dealing scandals ... doing business with dictators and tyrants is what the family has been doing for generations, and it is what they are still doing. None of it has anything remotely to do with patriotism or Americanism, it's about secret police and money and power and control, always has been.

So the short answer to your question is, yes, I do put Bush in the same club as Hussein. Actually, of the two I suspect he is the more dangerous.

Love,
Greg

I feel like an insignificant bystander amongst you but hey! still enjoying these posts...

You said this forum was for spirituality, and not the place to spell out the wrong-doings of the Bush family. You then proceeded to slander them. You mentioned that you could back up your statements with documented historical facts. You had better do that. You need to carefully list all of the documented historical facts before taking down a generation of family members - and lumping them all together, as well. By the way, I certainly don't want to be held responsible for all of the wrong-doings my grandfather might have participated in - whatever those wrong doings might have been. I am my own person.

Why have I never heard any of this about Bush? Why are you chosen to have this "inside information"?

Maybe this has something to do with that alien invasion you mentioned a while back.

Hi, Rachel.

Joyce

Rachel, I avoid typing certain words out in full because of the carnivore scanning system the feds are using since Sept 11. Every time we use certain words,we risk having them tap into our conversations on sites,as well as emails. At times, emails between myself and others arrive a day late now.

A moderator at a prophecy site I frequent very recently told me the Feds have harrassed them over certain articles published which help in getting the truth "out there". They have also been professionally hacked. If this isnt true terrorism, I dont know what else is! This,combined with everything Greg said, should be opening our eyes as to why there isnt much difference between Saddam/Bush.

The USA has the MOST weapons of mass destruction, so dont get confused Joy. They have also in the past,helped supply materials for other countries weapons.

Why didnt daddy Bush take him out? Probably because he just wasnt meant to yet.

All this combined only goes to tell me we are ALL in this together,even if in some twisted fashion!
I dont "hate" Bush, but I hate what hes doing. I'll for now, give him the benefit of the doubt and say..*gulp*..I dont really think(?) anyone whether its him or not,sets out to say "I am the antichrist,and Im going to fool everyone".
I think its up to us individualy to know the difference, and to not be taken in by the bs,and hype of "all in the name of combating terrorism

Next step..the New World Order..with NO freedoms,rights..and much racial strife. Ask yourself if hes such a good leader, then why this seemingly "white" race mentality? Why the constant natter about watching our borders,flights,etc for people of mid-east descent? Take a real close look at what happened to those Muslim doctors in the Alligator Alley fiasco,..poor buggers!

Why is it all happening?
ooopsss, I forgot...all in the name to fight terrorism....

Most of what Greg has been telling us can be found @ www.davidicke.com
If you read it last year, read it again in light of recent events. Take what you want to believe and leave the rest behind. However, read it thoroughly and consider whats happening in the world now.

Well Joy, up until now, you were kept in the dark like most of us were at one time. I know its SO hard to except..I understand your frustrations.

You're right, I overextended myself in that direction. I just wanted to be sure you understood that I was being very literal in putting Bush and Hussein in the same club, and not just "theatrical."

I'm not singled out for this knowledge in fact those few facts I mentioned above are rather widely known and written about, I'm emailing you a bibliography of sources. The reason you haven't read any of these things is most likely because you don't read books that are harshly critical of Bush! For the obvious reasons, books of that nature are generally ridiculed by the establishment media and don't make the bestseller lists, but they are there, lots of them actually, and their research is at least accurate enough to keep them from being sued for slander by these wealthy and powerful people, so that tells you something. Of course you must judge for yourself and I'm not trying to "convince" you, just stating my own belief emphatically!

You're right, I wouldn't want to be judged for my father's sins. Nonetheless, if you are looking at the actions and motives of a man who is dealing with armies and dictators and weapons and global resources, and that man is a member of a family who for generations has dealt with armies and dictators and weapons and global resources in a particular consistent way, that's relevant information. Proof of nothing, I agree, but not irrelevant to the discussion.

The real point here, Joyce, is not Bush-bashing, and in fact I have no particular partisan views myself. It's tempting to focus on this particular family because there are so many large and visible skeletons in their closet that it's not a tough point to make, but the point is not about that family, the point is about the military-industrial-financial power complex that has essentially taken over the world, and all our recent presidents have been members of the same "club," along with the leaders of every other major nation in the world. These leaders have some differences, sure, but by and large they are all members of a worldwide power-and-money corporate/conglomearate/syndicate that moves world events according to motives and objectives that are very different from the popular view of what goes on in the world. This is where the spiritual part comes in. If we want to have a chance to transition to a globally sustainable culture that doesn't destroy ourselves, we as human beings have got to learn to withdraw our support from this money-and-power based leadership in all its forms ... of which the current Bush administration is just one example ... and give it instead to our fellow human beings in ways that are unambiguously supportive of life and love, not tainted by jockeying for money and power over others.

Humankind existed in primitive but relatively stable and peaceful ways for hundreds of thousands of years, but for the past 4 to 5 thousand years we have been steered by a mentality and a model of social structure that depends on the stronger exploiting the weaker. One way or another, the "system of the world" for all this time has been built on slavery and suppression, and still is. But we've gone as far as that model can take us. Either we change - NOW - or we will perish as a civilization (and perhaps as a species) in the very near future. It is time for conscious evolution to a NEW way of relating to each other and the planet, and we will either choose to take that step or we'll live to regret it, but either way this old world-system is on its way out.

To the extent that our ability to TAKE that next step of conscious evolution depends at least in part on our recognition that the system we have been following is not life-affirming, and therefore choosing to STOP following it, to that extent knowing about the corruption that exists in our leaders and the deceit that is used to manipulate our support for their corrupt purposes is spiritually valuable information.

Love,
Greg

It's a scarey time for all of us....we just gotta keep trying.

honey...we sold arms to Iran and Iraq.....Pakistan and India.......covertly to Arafat...and blatently to Israel.

These guys lined their pockets...and partied it up...all on us....and they signed OUR names on the checks.

If someone did that to your credit card....you'd want them hunted down.

Now all these countries have war like problems with each other.....why do I not let my kids play with toy guns?

Because then they would point them at each other and say 'bang bang...you're dead'

This is not what our for-fathers wanted.

and for the record...I am NOT sweet....I can be nice...and I can worry for you like a pro.

But my ass is getting kicked by my aspects and Saturn is lording it over all of them....so I am trying to be really really fair minded and calm.

I am desperately....completely terrified of ANY conflict right now.

Be it at home with my kids....or in the world.

Aries.....the reason daddy B did not take out saddam....is not because the time was not right..

It was because the American people demanded we get OUT of Iraq.

They can't do shit...if we don't back them.....and they know it.

Thats why we are getting so much boo scarey stuff on saddam now...to get us to back the idea that this is the only answer......Saddam not doing anything he has not been doing....except for taking advantage of the idea that we might be distracted by 9/11.

Greg....not Jimmy Carter!

Pick yellow pick yellow.......well ok....blue is all right I guess....

Love and peace,

Dani

How quickly grieving 9-11 accelerated into retaliation in the name of defense. That's Spiritual?

The Truth is Out There. This is an excellent web site to find it. http://skolnicksreport.com/

AlterNet's e-mail arrived tonight with this as their lead story 'War Without End? NOT IN OUR NAME'. http://www.notinourname.net/

This is the e-mail I sent to NION.

Dear NION Organizers

In response to the question 'What Can I Do'..... Spread the Word.

I have taken the Liberty to place nearly all of the NION web site information on my personal forum.
http://pub69.ezboard.com/fthohtwavesfrm19

If this is objectionable to you... Please Advise.

I hope this will be met with approval for the most important action anyone can take at this time is to TAKE ACTION. Stand Up and Be Counted for World Peace and Reverence for All Life.

I am not a famous person and it may be a small contribution. But as we say in the Metaphysical/Spiritual community...
'MIRACLES HAPPEN'.

If there is but One person that is inspired by my action... there will soon be Two... then Three... then More. A raging river began as one small raindrop. Consider my action as the raindrop that made a difference.

Follow Your Heart
Pat

Ahh Dani ... I like Jimmy Carter too, and would like to believe he is not a part of this crowd of controllers and manipulators ... but in fact he is a member and active participant in nearly ALL of the internationalist organizations actively promoting the "New World Order," including the Bilderbergers and Council on Foreign Relations, and is one of the founders of the Trilateral Commission. His National Security Adviser, Zbigniew Brzezinski, is considered one of the prime architects of the military-intelligence strategy for world takeover.

I will say this ... many of those who are actively promoting the New World Order agenda are sincere idealists who believe that it is what the world "needs" to usher in an era of global peace and unity, and Carter may well be among this group. Remember that the rise of the the most brutal and repressive totalitarian-style dictatorships the world has known so far - Soviet Communism and Nazism - were also promoted and heralded in glowing terms by sincere idealists and intellectuals who were taken in by their utopian visions. Such folks are of course aware of the corruptions, brutalities and deceit along the road to their envisioned utopia, but see these things as just the unfortunate "real-world necessities" for implementing what is in the long run a positive humanitarian vision. (One of the most popular intellectual arguments in support of international Communism at a time when millions of humans were murdered under the Stalinist regime was "you can't make an omelet without cracking some eggs!")

Love,
Greg

If you are going to publicly blast our US president, Greg, and put him in the same league with Saddam - don't send me a private e-mail backing up your theory. That's such bad form.

I don't think your website is being monitored. Don't think anyone is going to shut it down. Yes, there is tug-of-war between the priorities of democracy and security - after the 11th. Frankly, I don't think anyone would believe that our national security is being threatened by what is being stated here. Small stuff.

Joyce

On a slightly different tangent here...

Do you think Bush, or any President for that matter, should be given carte-blanche to launch pre-emptive attacks on any nation that it considers to be an emerging threat? I just finished reading a 35 page report found at the Whitehouse website called The National Security Stragety of the USA and it says vey clearly that the cuurent administration's poilcy has switched from the stratagy of deterance that marked the cold war, to a strategy of pre-emptive strikes based on perceived threat. And while the document pays lip service to the importance of international groups like the UN, it makes it very clear that concenus is not required, and the current govn't will attack who and where it pleases.

Now if the paper was specifically talking about Iraq I might disagree, but I wouldn't be so worried. But the fact that these words are not just limited to the current situation with Iraq, but instead can be applied across the board to ANY county are frankly frightening to me. And the fact that measures passed since 9-11 have all but eroded the very important checks and balances your Constitution had the foresight to place on Presidents, means that the executive could conveiabley wage war against the wishes of your electred COngressmen and Senate, IF, the war falls under the very very wide umbrella of ridding the world of a perceived terrorist threat.

Reptilian Agenda aside (and for the record, those theories are a little far-fetched, even for me ), I think there is a serious danger to democracy here. If I were an American I would fight these wide-sweeping, all-encompassing executive agendas with every breath in me. And I would do it for guys like Sabra and your son who put their ass on the line for demoracy. They bravely are willing to give their lives...for the sake of a president who shows little regard for them and what they are willing to die for. That's the real injustice, and that's why although we might have somewhat different views, really ought to find our common ground and work together to stop this madness now, before the entire planet is forced to pay the price!

Love,
Terri

I haven't read the report, and I am certainly not going to automatically believe your summary [especially when I know how anti-American your opinions generally are]. As for my son and Sabra, both who actually served in the US military - please do not speak for them and what would be best for them. Their opinions might not be the same as yours.

Joyce

I'm really sorry if anything I have ever said has made you consider me to be anti-American. The things about America and Americans that I admire and repsect are the love of freedom, the emphasis on democracy and the people who made your country a place where dreams come true. What I am against though, are the elements of the current administration who are standig behind an unelected president who is embarking on a path of destruction that spells dire consequences for the entire world. Now I am willing to accept that you think I am a crack-pot for entertaining these theories. Heck, a bunch of friends and family memebers (Canadians also) do. That's ok - but I won't accept you telling me to keep my opinions to myself. Not when I am presenting them in a calm, factual manner that if anything, is working towards building bridges of understanding. Unless you're just here for a fight? And you're not actually interested in hearing anything beyond what you've fixed into your head - and you are just arguing with me for the sake of 'winning'? Becuase that's not why I am here - I am here only to present my beliefs, certainly not to belittle or make personal judgements against people who think differently.

Love,
TErri

From: http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/20/bush.national.security/index.html
Bush outlines first-strike doctrine
'We will not hesitate to act alone, if necessary'
From John King
CNN Washington Bureau

Congressional leaders met with President Bush at the White House on Thursday to discuss Iraq.

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Story Tools

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RELATED
• President Bush's National Security Strategy for the United States





WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Bush administration released a report Friday outlining an aggressive national security policy that says the United States must adapt its forces and planning toward favoring pre-emptive action against terrorist groups and hostile states that possess or are developing weapons of mass destruction.

The 33-page report, mandated by Congress, reflects many of the policy arguments that have emerged since last year's terrorist attacks and are front-and-center as the Bush White House argues in favor of an aggressive policy of confrontation with Iraq.

The debate over how and when the United States should use military force has been evolving since the Cold War ended more than a decade ago.

It has gained prominence and urgency as Bush pursues a war on terrorism on two fronts: pursuit of a group accused of attacking the United States - al Qaeda - and contemplation of a military strike against Iraq. The sovereign state has not been tied to any terrorist attack, but the administration has declared it is pursuing weapons of mass destruction.

The document, titled "The National Security Strategy for the United States of America" says the United States would prefer to act within international bodies and with international allies. But it also is blunt, saying, "We will not hesitate to act alone, if necessary, to exercise our right of self-defense by acting pre-emptively."

In addition, it says administration policy envisions perhaps "compelling states" to stop actions the White House considers to be assistance to terrorists.

The report, which was required by law, has been in the works for months. It makes clear that the Bush administration has no plan to cede the military superiority the United States has built up since the collapse of the Soviet Union. "Our forces will be strong enough to dissuade potential adversaries from pursuing a military buildup in hopes of surpassing or equaling the power of the United States," it says.

In a statement, White House press secretary Ari Fleischer said:

"This strategy states that the safety and security of America is the first and fundamental commitment of our government. America must always stand for and protect the universal values on which it was founded. To this end, President Bush makes clear that the United States will use its position of strength and influence in the world to defend, preserve and extend the peace."

Link to the entire report (where I got the information for my above commentary)http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nss.pdf (You need Adobe Acrobat to read it.)

Please re-read some of your past posts. You sound very anti-American and very bitter. Am I here for a fight? Not really. I'm not going to let some comments pass by without expressing MY viewpoint, however. I very strongly agree with many posts.

Joyce

?!?!?!?!?

I'm really surprised that's how you perceive me. Really surprised. Mostly if I make a comment about anything political I try my best to make sure I draw a distinction between the American people, or the country and the elements of the current administration that I find objectionable.

Mostly what I write here in these forums is about peace, about the growing need for an emergence of a brotherhood of mankind, about the need to fight for democracy and freedom the world over, about the search for spirit in a secular world, about astrology etc., I never thought any of that was bitterness. My personal mandate here is to help others and to learn from others. I'll have to think about how to make sure this comes across better in my posts.

Thanks and Love,
Terri

Love,
Terri