Sorry if my PM upset you, Joyce - I thought you had asked for bibliographical sources on the facts I presented about the Bush family's background, so I dug them up for you!

But Joyce ... and I don't mean this harshly, but only to be thought-provoking: when you first say that such statements are slanderous unless backed up by reliable sources, and then say "don't show me the sources" ... are you sure that's not just another way of saying "I don't want to believe it even if it's true?"

And if it is ... is that really a position you want to hold? Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I think I remember your saying you were an Objectivist (or at least an admirer of Ayn Rand's philosophy), and isn't one of the foundations of that philosophy an unremitting commitment to truth, even when that truth conflicts with cherished beliefs or attachments?

I too am DEEPLY and emotionally committed to the ideals of America, and one of the most admirable of the virtues expressed by our forefathers, who put their very lives on the line for it was a willingness to stand up against tyranny even if it is perpetrated by our own government - in fact, that's one of the backbones of the constitution that shines through in many many passages. But how will we know if and when such a situation arises if we are fixated on a viewpoint that criticism of government institutions, leaders, or policies is prima facie "un-American" and therefore to be automatically discounted and opposed without need of further thought or investigation?

Just wondering what "American" is to you ... is it the objective principles this country was founded on, or is it by definition whatever the current American leadership says and does? In my own understanding it is very important to distinguish between the two ... and to know where your loyalty lies in the event that they are not the same ... because in the current situation at the present time they are unquestionably not the same. You have only to read the Constitution, then read the latest set of presidential executive orders in the same sitting to know that beyond any shadow of a doubt!

Love,
Greg

Hey Proxy I was quite happy to let Pay TV go a whole month ago, and not have to watch the CNN news anymore, a whole year was enough..I have felt shame for what has happened, more than anyone will know, and the shame for the way all these points of view turn into an argument.

Good on you Pat, as you know I happened to be there when you did all of that on your site, funny as I had to carefully use the word "Illusion" so no one would jump don my throat.
But Im obviously on a different plane than most, and that is certainly evident by the few that choose to speak to me on this site.

Illusion, I choose not to buy into it any more..you all seem to have the facts, what we have been fed, but you did not like Proxy's statistics, well guess what?. We are all statistics in the end.

Hey Proxy I was quite happy to let Pay TV go a whole month ago, and not have to watch the CNN news anymore, a whole year was enough..I have felt shame for what has happened, more than anyone will know, and the shame for the way all these points of view turn into an argument.

Good on you Pat, as you know I happened to be there when you did all of that on your site, funny as I had to carefully use the word "Illusion" so no-one would jump down my throat.I changed it all anyway, you have to be so careful, really..
But Im obviously on a different plane than most, and that is certainly evident by the few that choose to speak to me on this site.

Illusion, I choose not to buy into it any more..you all seem to have the facts, what we have all been fed, but you did not like Proxy's statistics, well guess what?. We are all statistics in the end.

oh my good gravy joy..no offense here..but you really have put your head in the sand..
makes me wonder who you work for...

Greg is right..you DID ask for more proof and reference type of info..that wasnt very fair to him.
You know..no one can "make you change your mind"..but maybe one day, you'll want to eek out some info. I very well remember when a friend tried to tell me about some of this, and I thought he was a brick short of a load..
In the end..he was being gentle with his info!

hi CD..you DONT watch cnn anymore?? wow, they sometimes know things before they happen..

oh, come on, Aries..Joy has put her head in the sand?
you know yours is in not better place - buried in the clouds
well, at least her life is a little more peaceful then yours - she dosn`t live with the idea that someone is there just around the corner to get her if she accidentaly reveals her first name or some other "personal" info like the colour of her right eye for example... or her birthdate (oh, I know, I know - thats too much info)... neither she lives with the thought that the end of the earth is nearby...and her answers on here are all different
then just "It`s karma, baby"! ..LOL

no offense here but don`t bury her head and beliefs in the sand until she herself decide to do so

Let me clear up a few points -

Greg,

You put the president of the US and Saddam in the same camp. Your back-up material was not presented publicly in this very public thrashing. It was privately e-mailed to me.

I keep hearing - turn the TV off. No media. Hey, I watch CNN, BBC, MSNBC, and lots of local news. Read a lotta papers. Lots of magazine. Lots of books. Is there worry about getting tainted news, or what? Anyone who starts a thread [Greg]on "Conspiracy Theory for the Non-Paranoid", with www.davidicke.com for support needs to read some other material, as well. Please don't take offense. Just be sure to pick up your local paper in time to cast your vote in the next presidential election. You'll want to know the location and times that the polls will be open. I voted for Clinton twice and Al Gore. Might consider voting for Bush next time.

I hope I can voice my opinion here, without being expected to join the group mentality. Seems cult-like at times. Where is Maria? Where is Sabra? Is there a place for them here? Is there a place for me? Am I expected to join in and respond with, "Yes, I read the material (subjective material), and I agree. Bush and Saddam are the same."

I hope Saddam will see the wisdom of diarmament. If he does, it's only because he sees the US means business. We are the most powerful nation in the world, and we ought to use that power unapologetically, first and foremost in self-defense. Bush is bound to consult Congress, which he is doing. This is not just a constitutionally mandated check on executive powers. It is essential for the success of any sustained military effort. The costs and consequences of battle should be weighed beforehand. We are not isolated from the world by wealth and 2 oceans. The attacks on the 11th show that. We have enemies who dispute our values and wish us harm. Should we kick back and let them?

Aries, I don't work for the US government. Relax.

Terri, I do owe you an apology. I disagree with many of your opinions. You genuinely care about other people, though. That comes across.

Joyce

Sorry, but I'm not a blind patriot.

Hey, c'mon guys, we can disagree with each others ideas and have a lively debate without letting it slide into personal insults!

Actually, Aries, that "head in the sand" and "makes me wonder who you work for" was a bit thick ... I know you and Joyce are friends and you didn't mean anything harsh by it, but the words are important out here where there's no body language or facial expressions!

And we know where your head is, Missy Bissie ... but don't worry, we won't talk about it in polite company!

Love,
Greg

Just read your post, Bissie. Must have been writing mine while you posted.

Greg, please don't tell me what Aries really meant to say or what she was thinking or how she meant to come across. She can say what she wants. I'm fine with that and I'm fine with Aries. As long as I can express myself, everything is okay. I didn't feel personally attacked by Aries. We don't think alike on some issues. That doesn't mean we dislike one another.

Joyce

Hi Joyce

quote:

---

Anyone who starts a thread [Greg]on "Conspiracy Theory for the Non-Paranoid", with www.davidicke.com for support needs to read some other material, as well.

---

No kidding! One viewpoint is just one viewpoint. Betcha my library is bigger than yours! Even the bibliography with hundreds of references to the historical facts I mentioned is a selective one, focused on presenting a "behind the scenes" view of public figures and institutions that aren't always presented objectively in mass media, and the authors of those references have many different viewpoints.

Speaking of mass media, the "turn off the TV" sentiment is Proxy's not mine ... although I do share an awareness that many forces enter into the dynamics of what gets mass-media coverage, and a lot of it IS biased for many reasons ranging from political pressures to strong commercial interests that have a vested interest in "public perception." But my approach is not to disconnect from the mainstream, it's to pay attention to lots of sources, including but not limited to mainstream media, and form my own gestalt rather than "believing" any of them.

quote:

---

I hope I can voice my opinion here, without being expected to join the group mentality. Seems cult-like at times. Where is Maria? Where is Sabra? Is there a place for them here? Is there a place for me? Am I expected to join in and respond with, "Yes, I read the material (subjective material), and I agree. Bush and Saddam are the same."

---

Joyce, absolutely there is a place for you here, and everyone else regardless of viewpoint. Dialog is not very interesting OR enlightening if it's all coming from the same perspective, and the debates and different perspectives are what makes these discussions worthwhile. I'm certainly not looking for you to say "I've read the alternate viewpoints and I agree," although I'd be delighted to hear "I've read and thought about the alternate viewpoints" rather than "I'm not going to consider the alternate viewpoints because they are too ridiculous." But that's entirely up to you, of course.

I wasn't kidding when I said I am sooo glad to see you back here, Joyce, I do value you and what you contribute here a lot. Even when I completely disagree with it!

For the record, I am not a "true believer" in David Icke's window on the world by any means, although I do find value in a lot of what he says. I've been studying and researching what you might call "conspiracy theory" for many decades now, from sources that vary widely from each other as well as from mainstream viewpoints, and originating from every nook and cranny of the political and cultural spectrum -- from Birchers to socialists, from secular humanists to fundamentalist Christians, from Republicans to Democrats to independents to anarchists, from 17th century exposes of Royal intrigue to contemporary accounts of mastermind aliens. This is scarcely a unified thought-form and most of these folks disagree radically with each other about most things. But when you find some common well-documented conclusions in hundreds of different sources grinding hundreds of different axes, it's reasonable to suspect that there might be some truth there that's worth looking at and thinking about more closely. That's all. And from all of these things I form my own viewpoints, which I DO express passionately (what else is an Aries Moon good for?) But I sure don't expect you or anyone else to take those views as gospel. They're just my contribution to the dialog. Take 'em if they make sense to you, leave 'em if they don't.

Love,
Greg

Crossed posts again. I'm glad you didn't take what Aries said as an insult. Bissie obviously thought it was insulting, and felt compelled to poke back at Aries because of it. That can get out of hand real quick. Keeping the insults in check on the board IS one of my jobs, and that's what I was doing.

Love,
Greg

Greg,

Maybe your passion comes from your Scorpio Rising - gotta be good for something.

I am probably good to have here - more website traffic.

In all fairness, I can see that you are trying to find some common ground and respect between us, and I appreciate that.

Joyce

Joy -

Thanks

Love,
Terri

hi joy..I second the "thanks" and glad you didnt take it as a personal insult!

..and Biss..the color of my right eye is the same as the color of my left eye..green.

Joyce, if you're around right now..theres a show on TNN called "Conspiracy Zone", and the topic is the militarys "Star Wars" programme.
If you watch any TV, you may want to check this show out on Sunday nights. Theres a lot of humour in it as well.

Or you could check out the Coast-to-Coast radio syndicated radio shoe hosted by Art Bell....

09/22/02 - Sun/Mon
Host: George Noory
Guest: Edward T. Martin
"What really happened to Jesus Christ during the missing years in his life, from the age of 12 to 30? Edward Martin, maverick researcher and explorer, traveled to remote locations in India, Nepal, and elsewhere in Central Asia, in search of answers to the mysteries of Jesus' lost years."

Book: King of Travelers: Jesus' Lost Years in India
Website: www.tjresearch.info
Website: www.tombofjesus.com

09/23/02 - Mon/Tue
Host: George Noory
Guest: Don McAlvany
"Don McAlvany is the highly respected editor of the McAlvany Intelligence Advisor. His monthly intelligence newsletter analyzes global, economic, political, and financial developments and their effect on our families and personal finances. With a background in intelligence work, McAlvany is sought by high level political and business leaders throughout the world for consultation on global financial trends."

Website: www.mcalvany.com


09/24/02 - Tue/Wed
Host: George Noory
Guest: Robert Cook
"Robert Cook, inventor, has been working on the Cook Inertial Propulsion (CIP) engine since 1968 after giving up a high paying, 17 year long career in the printing trade. At first, he was not even aware that his device violated any of Newton's principles. Robert Cook, as featured in Jane's Defence Weekly on 7/24/02 and mentioned by Coast-to-Coast AM guest Nick Cook, has developed a breakthrough propulsion device. The inventor will talk about the CIP engine and his thoughts on the environment, among other things."

Book: The Death of Rocketry
Book: The Man Who Changed the Future
Website: www.forceborne.com


09/25/02 - Wed/Thu
Host: Art Bell
Guest: Dr. Leonard Horowitz
"Dr. Horowitz shares his most chilling evidence; government contracts under which numerous viruses were manufactured by biological weapons contractors, including chemtrails to West Nile Virus outbreak in NY. Dr. Horowitz received his doctorate from Tufts University and was awarded a fellowship in behavioral research at the University of Rochester."

Book: Emerging Viruses: AIDS and Ebola: Nature, Accident or Intentional?
Website: www.tetrahedron.org


09/26/02 - Thu/Fri
Host: Art Bell
Guest: Richard Glen Boire
"Richard Glen Boire, Co-Director of the Center for Cognitive Liberty & Ethics, seeks to foster cognitive liberty - the basic human right to unrestrained independent thinking, including the right to control one's own mental processes and to experience the full spectrum of possible thought. Mr. Boire holds a Doctorate of Jurisprudence from the University of California, Berkeley. He is a writer, social analyst, and legal scholar specializing in dissident thinking and control theory."

Website: www.cognitiveliberty.com
09/27/02 - Fri/Sat
Host: Art Bell
Guest: Sean David Morton
"Morton has developed a network of psychics called "The Delphi Associates", who specialize in month to month predictions of geological, political and economic events."

Sorry - that was probably cheeky of me - but in all honestly is a pretty interesting show, and offers more than just conspiracy theory fodder, but instead all kinds of things that are not mainstream...it's a better place to start that David Ickie, that's for sure!

Love,
Terri

PS - Anyone who wants to listen to Art Bell, but doesn't get it in their area can listen on-line at www.mojoradio.com 11pm EST.

oh for keeeripes sake..and I missed it!~ argh..you should have emailed me..I was listening to Armageddon for the 3rd time while working online.

Aries -

You didn't miss anything! I forgot that on Sunday Art Bell is preempted for some wrestling show.

Sometimes I have notcied that the Sunday show ends up running Moday night....so we might be in luck, because I was interested in last night's topic too.

Love,
Terri

HI Aries Yes Im gonna miss Larry King and the man who does the News from all the different States in the U.S..
C.N.N stands for Clairvoyant News Now..
anyway it was a descision made before Proxy put up his post, just decided to take a kit kat break from it all..
Some of the Aust. send up shows have been too funny as well.