Icke did coin a phrase that I find very true when talking about the politcal parties...he calls them "oppo-sames".

That's about how I feel about it most of the time.

I was always taught that the Republicans were for less federal government and more states rights. But now they want to delve into our most everyday lives.

I don't understand the "game" anymore.

Me too, Peggy. And isn't it funny, "states rights" is a phrase you don't ever hear any more - essentially states have no rights compared to the federal government, and kids in school these days have no inkling that it was ever supposed to be any other way!

Both parties are for massive centralized government power these days ... democrats on the basis of social entitlement programs and republicans on the basis of military/business/security programs, but both "choices" mean ever-increasing centralized federal power over peoples' lives. Republicrats!

Love,
Greg

Hi Greg,

In reply to:

---

"Both parties are for massive centralized government power these days ... democrats on the basis of social entitlement programs and republicans on the basis of military/business/security programs . . ."

---

Isn't that because for a long time people wanted some consistency in our laws, programs, etc. For example in one state, if you break the law you might get probation or a small sentence. If you break the law in another state for the exact same crime, you get 20 years.

Another example:
Here in Ohio, when a person buys a car, there are taxes that have to be paid are not that much. Just right across the river, in Kentucky, when one purchases a car, the taxes are very high. There are a lot of poeple in Kentucky that try to find a relative or friend that lives in Ohio, so they can use their Ohio address as residence so they can pay less in taxes. With liquor it is just the opposite. Ohioans go across the river because the tax is a lot less for liquor than in Ohio.

Many more examples besides taxes and laws. Time prevents me for writing more here.


Sabra

(sorry to digress from the original topic but..)

Heres a horrible news story which combines the following,
~what Icke talks about in the first part of that interview..how media created a problem
~racial profiling, along with arab/christian hatred
~something which will help lead into a one-world-state/government run religion,..which in fact stems from the first 2 points here...
~and Jesus' prophecy of "peoples love will grow cold"..
For me, it also comes to mind that mankind/collective consciousness is SOMEHOW working together on this..but these people did NOT have to chose to kill others.
I believe this is knowing where what is "right" and what is "wrong" comes into play. We dont have to fall for what "they" are trying to do. Knowing the difference and living accordingly is the only thing which will save us now from this Beast. That may slightly help answer your confusion Peggy, at least I hope so. Also,take note, there is no "O" in the arab language..(Mohammad)..hence, this reporter did not do the proper homework..showing something maybe a bit sinister is at play..(thankfully a good teacher in my life clued me into this 3 years ago,when he informed me I should know some things,in order to understand the hatred which will break out against the arabs/muslims)
--------
Dozens killed in Miss World riots

KADUNA, Nigeria -- Dozens have been killed in northern Nigeria in rioting that erupted after a newspaper suggested the Prophet Mohammad would have approved of the Miss World beauty contest.

The death toll in the town of Kaduna was an estimated 105 with a further 521 injured taken to hospital, aid workers said on Friday.

Angry mobs in the mainly-Muslim city 600 kilometres (375 miles) northwest of Lagos burnt Christian churches and rampaged through the streets stabbing, bludgeoning and burning bystanders to death......cont' here..

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/11/22/nigeria.missworld/index.html

Hi Sabra,

In reply to:

---

Isn't that because for a long time people wanted some consistency in our laws, programs, etc.

---

No, I don't think that the shift toward massive centralized government is "because" of such reasons, although I'll certainly agree they are used to justify each expansion of federal power.

All these arguments were around at the time the constitution was written, and were thoroughly discussed and debated. What the founders decided is that protection from the tyranny of authoritarian government (which was really the whole thrust of what they were fighting for) was more important than whatever inconvenience or inconsistency the lack of centralized authority might engender. There were certain few thing that they DID consider essential for the central government to enforce or enable uniformly, and those few things were explicitly defined; but they were very clear that beyond those few things the central government had no power and was prohibited from assuming new power except by constitutional amendment ... even by popular vote!

Now of course, there's nothing wrong with holding a political view that says the constitution is old fashioned and no longer relevant to the needs of people in the 21st century, and many do say that. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. But when folks argue for massive increases in federal power AND say they are supporters of the constitution, that's either mistaken or intentionally misleading. It ain't so, because the constitution is ALL ABOUT limiting centralized power.

Love,
Greg

Hello everyone,

I wanted to jump in here and add my two cents worth of comments. First of all, I want to ask a question. Until I know what others know we can't communicate and build a bridge of communication based on knowledge or information.

First question is-

1. Is the US a Democracy or a Republic?

This makes a big difference on the whole understanding of this topic.

2. What is a Democracy and what is a Republic?

We have to know what each one is before we go any further in our conversation. I don't want to assume that we all have the same information and understanding. I know some will have the answer here soon, and others may be surpised by the truth.

Doc

The answers are the foundation of understanding the situation.

Hi Doc, long time--------

The only lawful system of government in the United States is a Republic as guaranteed to the states by Article 4, Sec 4 US Constitution i.e., a Constitutional Republic.

jwhop

Hi Woody, good to see you here!

Good topic. I'm going to open up a new thread for this and copy your post to it ... 'cause I imagine this might get involved and this thread is already really long, okay?

Democracy, Republic and civil rights

Love,
Greg

The "Loss of Freedoms and Big Brother Bill" is to be signed tomorrow (monday, nov.25)..can someone try and get the exact time and place when it happens please.

This document may be just as important as the Declaration of Independence.

Hi Aries,

I was searching for the pass hour or so, but my connection has been erratic for some reason. Must be sunspots . Hmmm, maybe it is big brother . {the preceding two sentences are a joke - please, no one take offense }


The only thing I could find is the below. I don't know if this helps. Maybe you could look deeper into the site of links. I would do it myself, but as I said above, my connection is very slow and sometimes not at all. I will keep looking for you if I can.
USATODAY.com -- Current Legislation

Cheers!!

Sabra

hi Sabra..thanks..but I dont know if any time has been "set" at this point.(that we know of) I just meant if someone is watching the news when it happens,can they please post the data..I'll be @ work,and probably will miss it.

My pleasure Aries, anytime .

I will keep my eyes and ears open and I will post here as soon as I hear anything. In the meantime I will keep searching when I can tonight (about another half hour) and in the morning. Have a g'night.

Maybe there will be a filibuster . Hehe, I haven't heard that term in ages .


Sabra

here we go..

Bush to sign Homeland Act Monday
Monday, November 25, 2002 Posted: 12:42 AM EST (0542 GMT)


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- When President Bush signs the Homeland Security Act Monday, he will create a department that will be the largest reorganization in the federal government in 55 years.

Signing is scheduled for 1:20 p.m. in the East Room of the White House
---------------
from
http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/11/24/homeland.security/index.html

Here's the chart, if that turns out to be the actual time. I'll adjust it if it isn't. Holler if this is too slow-loading for anyone, and we can move it to the start of a new thread:


Love,
Greg

Thanks Greg, I was hoping you'de do that!
Does ANYONE know if it was signed right at 1:20 pm??
Theres a lot of numerology it seems in this whole process. Coincidence? Did Bush have an astrologer on hand??

I know it was between noon and 2:00, but thats all I know for sure.

Greg, do you think both charts are significant..the time it was passed, as well as the time of signing..whats your professional opinion on this?
How about you, Donna if you're around..any thoughts?
Terri??

Hey guys

My very quick thought is that it's not as 'scary' a chart as I would have thought - for instance, the Pluto, S.Node and Mercury conjucnt the 10th houe cusp is somewhat reassuring. Better there than say in the 8th or 12th But it is a powerful feeling chart - if it were a person I'd be pretty impressed by them

I'll have to digest it some more.

Love,
Terri

hi Terri..I thought somewhat the same,thats why I mentioned about the possibility of an astrologer..I mean,..even a couple of grand trines..lol. However, that moon opposite neptune And Im not too sure about a 4th house saturn in this case.(?)
..I dunno...lets hope the Bill takes a spiritual approach..
..still need to digest it too..and think ahead to some transits hitting on certain areas..

....page 111......boy that jumped at me.......

oi veh ...what I started here!

All I wanted to do was share the info..... I feel badly it escalated into such a brew ha-ha

That chart IS revealing isn't it?...thankyou Greg!

Now Aries.....you WILL put it into Koch for your true feeling right?

Terri...you like Placidus like I do don't you?......maybe with everyone getting a feel for the chart we can get some more answers.....

Aries...how is it up against gw's?

Anyone have info on Poindexter himself? That might be interesting to read as well.......

Although it feels risky to shoot this to the top again...(forgive me...what with all my overtime...and a personal crisis....it truly took me this long to read the whole thread....)

theres a few things I'd like to throw into the mix....

For one thing....I'd say we better all use cash and cashiers checks as much as possible....(there goes those credit cards for Christmas!)

And for another.....even tho' it turned into an argument...lets remember we are all patriots here....one of the things this country was founded on was the right to discuss and even argue over points....for all laws....and freedoms.

My biggest fear of this bill is the author.....plain and simple....this has been his dream for years....and he has been handed the chance to put it into action...thats damn scary.

The premise is based on fear.....and us giving up freedoms because we are afraid.....we need to keep our heads on straight and think clearly....

I have never understood why so many people thought Reagan was the greatest thing since sliced bread...as our government hadn't been so corrupt since Nixon....and Poindexter is Reagans prize fall guy.....a very evil man with a personal agenda that has nothing to do with whether or not we are safe at our local mall and grocery store.

Everyone has made very valid points......and it's important...(IMHO)...that we keep on this and keep in contact with our 'elected' (mostly anyway ) officials.

Let us stay banded together.....we all want the same thing.

Peace.

It is NOT black and white.....it's very complicated....and we cannot let them hand it to us as if it is.

I wish I had something more intelligent to contribute....but my mind is reeling from it all.

Maybe I should have replied one at a time to the responses and then I could make more sense....but so many things tumbled thru my head as I read this...I would have zapped in another 25 replies...and that would have gotten pretty annoying I suppose.

Let there be Peace on Earth...and Let it begin with me!

Dani