Hi all, I thought it would be a good idea to start a new thread to continue this discussion since it is still lively but got sooo long and slow to load!

Sabra I wanted to respond to your last post about my references to Hitler's strategy for grabbing power in comparison to the present administrations techniques for grabbing power.

First, my friend, I want to say that I understand completely the emotional charge that Nazism has for you ... and to assure you that I fully concur. Don't forget that my father was a European (Hungarian) Jew, and I have relatives who died in concentration camps. My first wife was Jewish and my children are Jews. There is no lack of sensitivity on my part. And there is no one more aware or appreciative than I of the haven this country (America) has been and IS to oppressed and downtrodden people throughout the world, of ALL races, religions and nationalities.

I do not discount that for an instant, in fact it is the extreme value I place on this country and its contribution to world humanity that prompts me to make what are sometimes very harsh criticismns of some elements of the current power structure here. Please remember that it is neither America nor the American government, both of which I treasure, that I am criticizing, but rather a small but extremely powerful "clique" of folks who have wormed their way into positions of great power in the political and bureaucratic structure of this country.

With that in mind, I sincerely apologize for the distress that my use of Nazi comparisons has obviusly caused you and others ... but I stand by it for several reasons.

In attempting to convey the reality that the strategy and tactics now being used by the current administration CAN BE and HAVE BEEN used to usher in horrendously oppresswive regimes in the past, there is simply no example that conveys this as vividly as the example of Hitler's rise to power, I could have used 1984 or other fictional works describing totalitarian takeovers, but fiction is just that ... it is "stories," not reality, and for that reason is easily dismissed and conveys little or nothing of the real horror of a totalitarian regime. Or I could have used events in the Communist rise to power during and after the Russian Revolution in the early part of this century ... but there are many who feel that the Communists were in theory a noble political idea, and that the Russian revolution might have resulted in a humanitarian society had it not been unfortunately taken over by brutal leaders who used its ideals cynically. So that example, too, fails to convey the stark reality of how these tactics can lead to total, brutal state control over society and the individual.

As horrifying and uncomfortable to contemplate as it is, I think it is critical for all of us to understand vividly what is really at stake here. If a totalitarian regime DID succeed in grabbing power here ... and I am convinced that is the intention, though certainly not the current reality ... it would be no less brutal than Nazi Germany, whether it involved targeting a specific race for extinction or not. Look at every totalitarianism we are historically aware of, whether organized around racial hatred or not: the Stalinists with their murder of millions on the Gulag ... the "Cultural Revolution" of the Chinese Communists with their equally brutal mass murders of millions of their own citizens ... this is what totalitarian regimes do! It is no use pussyfooting around and pretending otherwise, as painful as it is to contemplate. I pray to God that such a thing does not befall America ... but if it does, and there are those who want it to ... it will be just as murderous as Nazi Germany, as Stalinist Russia, as Maoist China. We DO need to recognize that, before we complacently dismiss the possibility.

Now in response to your objection to the thought that "In my own personal opinion, extermination of the Jews was never a PRIMARY motive of Hitler's rise to power...." it seems to me that, oddly enough, the article you quoted pretty much made the same point! Josef Hall says:

In reply to:

---

"When I now broached the question of what the source of his so strongly felt hatred for the Jews was, and why he wanted to destroy this so undeniably intelligent race - a race to which the Germans and all other Aryans, if not the entire world, owed an incalculable debt in virtually all fields of art and knowledge, research and economics - Hitler suddenly calmed down and gave this unexpectedly sober and almost dispassionate explanation:"

"It is manifestly clear and has been proven in practice and by the facts of all revolutions that a struggle for ideals, for improvements of any kind whatsoever, absolutely must be supplemented with a struggle against some social class or caste."

"My object is to create first-rate revolutionary upheavals, regardless of what methods and means I have to use in the process. Earlier revolutions were directed either against the peasants, or the nobility and the clergy, or against dynasties and their network of vassals, but in no case has revolution succeeded without the presence of a lightning rod that could conduct and channel the odium of the general masses."

"With this very thing in mind I scanned the revolutionary events of history and put the question to myself against which racial element in Germany can I unleash my propaganda of hate with the greatest prospects of success? I had to find the right kind of victim, and especially one against whom the struggle would make sense, materially speaking. I can assure you that I examined every possible and thinkable solution to this problem, and, weighing every imaginable factor, I came to the conclusion that a campaign against the Jews would be as popular as it would be successful."

---

Here Hitler states very plainly that his object is "to create first-rate revolutionary upheavals, regardless of what methods and means I have to use," and that he questioned "against which racial element in Germany can I unleash my propaganda of hate with the greatest prospects of success? I had to find the right kind of victim..." Finally, after he "examined every possible and thinkable solution to this problem, and, weighing every imaginable factor, I came to the conclusion that a campaign against the Jews would be as popular as it would be successful."

In his own words, the OBJECT was to create revolutionary upheavals, and the METHOD, after considering many possible solutions, was a campaign against the Jews.

For whatever that's worth.

Love,
Greg

Hi Greg

It's so easy for governments to decieve us isn't it? We can be manipulated without even being aware of it. I think that is because we all are busy with our lives, our families and jobs, and especially here in the U.S. we are, on the most part, trusting of our elected officials.

Even if it isn't this administration, if we allow THEM to change the laws unconstitutionally in the name of terrorism, it leaves us vulnerable for a future Hitler or Hussein type. It seems that a long time back the elected officials decided that the Constitution restricted their powers too much so they have systematically been trying to eradicate it altogether. The Constitution is the legacy our forefathers gave us as the only means of protection from the dictators of the world. We can't let them take that protection away from us.

Nice seeing you here in part ll.

Love, Connie

Hi Greg,

Thank you for responding to my post above. Also for understanding. I do appreciate that. No, I didn't forget that your father was Jewish.

Terri asked me a question above (I mean in part 1) and I have been working on a response (before you posted the above) which I am now putting up next because I think she deserves an answer, so I like to ask you to bear with me here for a moment.

Sabra

Hi Terri,

I am only bringing this up because Terri mentioned that she didn't understand why I am taking this personal. Actually Terri, it is one of the most thoughtful, caring question (the way you asked it) I have seen by anyone here in these types of discussions. So I want to say, thank you.

In reply to:

---

I hope this isn't going to be construed as a personal attack - although I am going to single out three people on this thread with a question. Jwhop, Joy and Sabra (although I know Joy isn't here anymore, still I would have liked to know her answer to this) - guys - why does this line of questioning and conversation make you seem so angry? I really don't understand it. I mean I understand (and truely respect) the fact that you think differently. But I don't understand why it all seems so personal? Why do you really care what Greg and the others here think of the Bush administration or the story behind 9-11?

---

What made you think I was angry ? In all honesty I thought it was Ginny who was angry here. I was just joining in the debate and asking questions. I hope you don't think just because I disagree, I am angry.

But I have to say I do take it personally. Not the Bush administration or the story behind 9-11. I don't even care that much for President Bush (sorry Jwhop) and I am against war. But I do think that Saddam should be stopped and if that means war then so be it unless there are other ways to stop him.

Here is what I am taking personally and why. It is the Nazi references. Again, as I said above, I have no problem discussing the Nazi's, but it is the comparisons to our government.

My parents and family are holocaust survivors. My father was born and raised in Vienna, Austria. He was constantly beaten and brutalized by the Nazi's as a child and while growing up, all because he was Jewish. At seventeen he was ready to go to the university but couldn't, because no Jews were allowed to now, again all because of his religion.

He fled Vienna in 1938 right after Kristallnacht "Night of Broken Glass" to Palestine where he was recruited for the British Army. My grandfather was missing one day and never heard from again. It is assumed he perished either in the camps or killed by the Nazi's. Nobody knows. My grandmother survived, fled and lived in Israel. My father's uncle, who had a wife and two children were taken away, and never heard from again either. It is presumed they died in one of the concentration camps.

My mother was born and raised in Königsberg, (now Kaliningrad) but was considered Germany since the territory was occupied by Hitler's Germany. When my mother was seventeen, she along with her aunt and uncle watched in horror as the Nazi's marched in front of their synagogue and torched it as they stood there helplessly. They had belonged to this synagogue for many, many years. This was only one of 200 synagogues that were destroyed during Kristallnacht. My mother's family was just a middle class German working family - far from being rich. But like all the Jews, everything they owned was taken away. Everything!

My mother's Aunt and Uncle managed to escape to the U.S. My mother was left behind in Germany because there was no money for her trip. Hitler's Germany decreed that no more ships could leave Germany.

Later, my mother caught up with the Jewish Agency at the time that was part of the underground where they provided ways to escape Hitler's Germany. The final destination of the escapees was Palestine and the goal was to take only the "strongest" to help build Israel. There were only so many people they could take. The agency refused to take my mother because of all things "she was to skinny". My mother had a friend who the agency wanted to go to Palestine. She said if my mother "couldn't go then I will not go either". Finally the agency and the underground relented.

In September 1940, around 3,000 Jewish refugees from Vienna, Prague and Danzig were attempting to reach Palestine. In a convoy of four river steamers, they set sail down the Danube and reached the Romanian port of Tulcea where they transferred to three Greek cargo ships named Atlantic, Pacific and Milos. Conditions on board these three ships were horrendous, reminiscent of Japanese hell-ships later in the war. Eventually the ships reached Palestinian waters, but the British Colonial Office refused them permission to land. The British Government had decided to take drastic steps in order to put an end to the illegal immigration, and announced the following day that the immigrants were to be deported to Mauritius where a special camp was to be built, and that their fate would be decided when the war ended.

When the ships arrived in Haifa, their passengers were transferred to yet another ship, which the British intercepted earlier, called the S/S Patria. The Patria was under repairs in the Harbor.

As the last passengers from the Atlantic were coming on board, a tremendous explosion ripped the liner apart. The death toll amounted to 267 refugees killed. The Haganah (Jewish underground army) decided that the expulsion of illegal immigrants must be prevented at all costs and succeeded in smuggling a mine aboard the ship. The explosion was the work of the Haganah, who had meant only to damage the ship to prevent it sailing.

But they miscalculated the force the explosion would have on an aging ship. The ship was not merely disabled but sank rapidly. Within 15 minutes, the 12,000-ton liner plunged to the bottom of Haifa Bay.



There was not a single home in the entire City of Haifa that was not affected by the disaster. Furnishing of every type, clothing of every description was donated to the survivors. Children were left orphaned and parents lost their children. The British Government in charge of Palestine declared that they would not deport the survivors of the Patria nor The Atlantic in the light of "Special dispensations of mercy on the grounds of the horrors they had just experienced board the S/S Patria." The roughly 1,700 Jews were interned in a detention camp at Atlit. They were permitted to stay in pre-state Israel and were released in groups throughout 1941.

My mother was one of the 1,700 survivors on the S/S Patria . . .

Now after reading a small portion of my family's history can you (and anybody else) see why I am taking this personal when any comparison is made to the Nazi's? From my viewpoint, the U.S. government does not even come close.

Sabra

"These are the threads of Our Lives...."

Sooner or Later I knew I would have to jump in.



Politics. Or the lack of It. The incredible task of the Evolved Human to deal with. The daily survival of collective Minds in a World ravaged with individual Uniqueness; resulting in the constant banter, ploys, strategies and schemes of those who were given the "inside" Word.
We call them, "THEM." AKA: THEY
Because we aren't sure WHO THEY are.
Are they You?
Purhaps they are Me?
Are they Him? Or Her?
Are they Us?

They can't be US...we would know THEM when we see US right?
I mean Are we THEM? Are they US?

Certainly (and I have pondered this )....
ALIENS aren't running the Earth!!!?
Are they?

Because if they are....there is definitely a conspiracy going on FAR beyond OUR daily comprehension AND we really have nothing to worry about.We are subservient to THEM and must follow the Matrix.


OR


We can take the Blue Pill.
Open Our EYES and see what is happening here. In every critical mass of Evolution, the equinox teters within the great opposites of Hu-Man's equator. Great heights are acheived in both Spirit and Science...seeing the Galaxy in only ways Galileo could ever Dream of. And Dark Depths are revealed in the perversity of our Beings as Animus.....showing Caligula what ugliness really is.

The more things have changed the more they have remained the same. And so very often..."History will teach us Nothing." (Sting)
We are poised in a Time and a Space where the circumstances have been deja vu all over again, Man fighting man for food, water, money, power, flags, land and even sometimes Love...where every time the results have been Death, destruction, and the loss of Life; by far the most tragic and necessary requirement for War.

This Time, there is a Twist.
More people are Conscious than ever before.
But fewer people DO anything about It.
Awareness is only the First Step.
ACT-EON on the behalf of the Evolved Soul is not only necessary...but required, if THEY are to be stopped in THEIR mad attempt to control and manipulate the TIME AND LIVES of innocent, ignorant Human Beings; who breathe the same Air and drink the same Water THEY do! (Or do THEY eat and drink )
The Peace Full Evolved People of this Planet, no matter the Creed, Race or Religion, NOW have to act-ivate their focus on the SOURCE of Control we see as "THEM".
The Players in THEIR game of deception and double speak.
We know who THEY are. We just haven't the fight in US individually. Or even banded into close tight nieghborhood rallyers who petition the White House in small, fanatical groups....lobbyists or campaigners.
The red tape we follow will lead us back to the beginning of a circular fight especially designed to fade into complacency and tire out even the greatest Advocate.
The fight for our Free-Dome requires a Higher Understanding of the Human Nature, Patience and above all the Tenacity to forge ahead into the natural Evolution of Life....with respect for It as we go.

There is no Time to waste, as WE know.

"What are ya gonna do?" just doesn't cut it anymore.
DOing SOMETHING is what this Informational Revolution is all about. The Super Highway of Words and Communication has been opened by THEM, and now will be the key catalyst for their demise, as People of Like Minds around the word start talking...
Conversing.
Sharing.
Thinking.
Joining.
Spiraling
Evolving.....
DOING.
Changing.
Accepting.
Maintaining.
Evolving.....

We just have to real eyes, I think, that indeed
"we are NOT a-Lone" here and must use each other to fight THEM, the few. The Proud. The Ignorant.

To truly begin the NEW age as a World Community, without the NEW WORLD ORDER coming NOT from some carefully manipulated and constructed design by so few, but a sense of Awareness that won't TOLERATE hunger and homelessness, capital punishment or child pornography, murder and poverty at any level. An Awareness that nourishes the Minds of it's Children and nutures the Beings of it's Elderly. An Awareness the openly accepts individuals for which they stand, in all their embodiment and constitition.

An Awareness of Careness.
Without having to define It or Say It.

Chahles, to quote the words of Pogo.." I looked at the enemy and the enemy was me."

Glad you "jumped in" here.

THEY who are THEY? Are THEY Us? Maybe THEY are Us. Maybe we are THEM. They represent all the evils the human heart is capable of where there is no LIGHT, where there is no LOVE. Unevolved souls. THEY are dandy-lions. You can't really get rid of them. You root them out, spray them and kill them, but they keep coming back. For every dandy-lion you kill, another springs up to take it's place. And history will teach us nothing.

Awareness of Careness. I like that.

Love, Connie

Wow, Sabra, what a story. Thank you for sharing that with us, as painful as it is.

This is what we have to put an end to. Such human suffering and misery inflicted by other humans ... whether on the impossibly vast scale of the holocaust ... or on the streets and alleyways of some country where death squads hunt children like game ... or in so many trouble spots in the world where mines and machine guns are a neverending fact of life, and rival warlords sweep through raping and looting, to be swept out next week by different warlords who rape and loot again ... where homes are burned down and husbands are murdered in front of their wives and families for the crime of belonging to the wrong faction or ethnic group ... where children die of starvation and lie where they drop. This is what we must put an END to in the world, on all scales.

This is what happens wherever power and domination rather than love and justice govern the affairs of men. We must resist this on all levels - in the outward behavior we express and tolerate, and in the inner sanctum of our own hearts where love and power-lust are both born and chosen between.

Love and blessings on your family, past and present.

Love,
Greg

Exactly, Connie! Even if Bush and Co. were the greatest humanitarians in the world and wouldn't DREAM of abusing such powers, whoever inherits them next ... WILL use them. This is what the founding fathers knew, that regardless of intentions such power cannot be allowed, ever. Because once it exists, if those who hold it don't use it brutally, they will be slapped down and replaced by those who WILL. That's the nature of the Beast!

The only protection against the abuse of power is not to allow that power to exist!

Thanks for jumping in Chahles

In reply to:

---

To truly begin the NEW age as a World Community, without the NEW WORLD ORDER coming NOT from some carefully manipulated and constructed design by so few, but a sense of Awareness that won't TOLERATE hunger and homelessness, capital punishment or child pornography, murder and poverty at any level.

---

Yes!

Love,
Greg

Wow, that was beautiful, Sabra. The emotion and pain behind the facts of the story you shared...I must say, I am lost for words. Something that should have never happened happened to your family. My heart really goes out them--to all of those who went through that. Bless you, Sabra. It was an age of absolute ignorance and that is the reason I will *always* and I do stress ALWAYS regard Adolf Hitler as the most RAW EVIL man in history.

Hello everyone!

First of all I want to thank Greg, Sabra, Aries and Connie for their replies and comments.

I'm not going to reply to each of you separately guys.

I'm following this thread with a great interest. First of all I'm glad that the tone of the discussion has become more polite, that's great!

I can feel a lot of fear on this thread... The fear is a destructive force because it could separate us from reality.

We're all confronted by increasing uncertainty and confusion, there are so many possible threats. The fear exists as a fact among all of us.

You guys sense that something is not right, that you're in some kind of potential danger you can't quite put your finger on... I can understand that feeling.

Knowledge is definitely a main power against your fear, you do have right to get all the possible information and to learn as much as possible about things you fear.

But my opinion is that it's also too soon to point your finger at President Bush, not that I'm his admirer !

You need FACTS, you need written documents to accuse him/ or his administration. It's like going to court, the judge will not ask you for your opinion about certain matters, but he will certainly ask you for the written proof.

I have a feeling that you all feel that your country is somehow in the process of betraying you, the country which I'm sure you do love and respect and which was good to you until now?

Why do you think America would betray its citizens??? Greed?? Power?? Both???

America is far, honestly too far to ever reach totalitarian kind of regime which would establish political, social, cultural control over their citizens.

Your view of the future is over pessimistic, maybe as the direct consequence of the social situation.

Media can be very dangerous in increasing private anxieties and fears by creating irrational panic among many people.

It's great to share different ideas and opinions on this thread, but it's not that great to spread panic and fear.

Let's use this thread as a tool of knowledge and not as some kind of propaganda tool... sometimes it really looks like propaganda against Bush and America nowadays, from my point of view.

Peace and Light
El

Good Morning Sabra

I read your post last night and wanted to respond but I was speechless. I know that it's hard to believe that I would ever be speechless. My husband is always telling people not to encourage me.

Your family has been through the worst that can happen. They literally walked through the valley of evil and God delivered them from that evil.

Coming to this country must have been for them, and many others, like walking out of hell and into heaven. Those of us who were born and raised in the U.S. have no knowledge of what that must be like. We never had to look evil directly in the eye like your family did. This is not a perfect country, but it is still a beacon in the world, an oasis in the wilderness. The image that comes to my mind of how that experience must have been for your family and others is the scene from the Wizard of Oz when Dorothy's house lands in Oz and she opens the door. Having been spared the storm, she is delivered from her bleak world into a beautiful land of color and she is awed by what she sees. We Americans may take what we were blessed with for granted having never experienced what your family and so many others have been through. I can't, for that reason, say I KNOW, how you feel. I haven't walked a mile in your shoes, Sabra. I can only imagine it and conjure up in my mind the scene from the Wizard of Oz. But I wanted to let you know that I do understand how you feel, or at least I can imagine how you feel.

We Americans may seemed spoiled and callus to others who have not had the advantages we have had all our lives, but we aren't really. We love this country and would die to keep it the beacon it is for all the world. Many of us HAVE died to perserve this democracy. Even in the Land of Oz, for all it was and for it's beauty there was still evil (a la the wicked witch of the West) that Dorothy had to overcome. So when we Americans criticize our government it is only because we want to keep what we have free of the evils that may threaten it. The Constitution of this nation is more than words on a sheet of paper, it represents all the principles, values, and dogmas that this nation was established on. The Constitution of the U.S. IS our freedom, it is our protection from the evil of this world who would take it away from us in the blink of an eye. We have to be ever watchful and guard that Constitution so that when we do look around our world we can say, there but for the Grace of God, go I. Because if we don't stay ever watchful, what we love and value so dearly can be snatched away in a heartbeat by tyrants.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!! And God bless you and your family, Sabra.

Love, Connie

Hi El, thanks for that perspective. While I don't agree with you that what has been expressed on this thread and its precursor is "undocumented opinion" (in fact, there is some very careful documentation, with official sources quoted in detail, many of them directly from government documents, regulations, current & proposed legislation and responsible mainstream media sources), I DO think that you've hit the nail on the head about a very important aspect of this, and that is the spreading of fear. Fear is one of the most powerful emotions, and it is one of the MAJOR tools used to influence peoples' behavior and beliefs. All repressive governments have used fear to keep their citizens in line, and as pointed out earlier one of the classic methods used to GAIN power over people is to create or take advantage of a crisis that frightens people, and then offer a "solution" to that crisis that leads toward loss of freedom ... and people will often accept such solutions very readily if they are afraid. It's very easy to think "well, how important is it to give up a little bit of freedom if it will keep us and our families safe and protected from this terrible danger?"

And here's where the problem comes in for those of us who are VERY concerned about the loss of freedom: on the one hand, it is absolutely necessary to communicate the very real dangers of failing to resist such attempts to subvert freedom; but on the other hand, it is frightening ... and fear is exactly what those who would like to take away our freedoms WANT us to feel!

It's very hard to find a healthy balance between informing folks of real dangers that they need to guard against, and cossing the line into focusing so much on the negative and fearful aspects that it actually plays into the hands of those who WANT us to feel helpless and afraid ... because when we are afraid, we become much easier to manipulate, and we lose a lot of our own power of independent thought and action.

We need to find the right stance to be able to look at real dangers calmly and clearly, neither avoiding them nor being overwhelmed by them, without getting drawn into an "atmosphere" of fear and paranoia where negative possibilities dominate our thoughts and attentions. Even in the darkest situations facing the direst threats, we need to retain our ability to face them with confidence and firm resolve rather than fear and trembling ... and to keep in mind that no matter what the dangers, in the long run love is more powerful than fear, good is more powerful than evil, compassion and caring are more powerful than competition and hatred. Because if we lose THAT perspective and our basic optimism for life, then we are truly lost!

Thanks for the reminder!

Love,
Greg

Good Morning (or evening to you?) Eleonora

The fear we have is just what I said to Sabra in my post above. It is the fear that if the laws of the Constitution are changed or ignored in the name of terrorism, or anything else, we can lose the freedom we all hold so dear.

President Bush is really not the issue on a personal level. He may even be a well intentioned, nice guy for all we know. It is the policies of his administration. As Greg stated above, if the Constitution is tampered with, altered and changed for whatever the present cause may be, it leaves our country open for someone who is elected AFTER he leaves office, or any time in the future, to have TOTAL AND COMPLETE POWER. It takes away the rights and the voice of the people. Is it Bush or is it his advisors, and does it really matter WHO? All I can say is read the Constitution and then read all you can regarding the laws the Bush administration is trying to get passed in the name of fighting terrorism. Hell, at this point, Eleonora I am more afraid of Ashcroft and others in this administration than I am of terrorists. I want my grand daughters and my great grand kids to enjoy the freedom I have had. Read the article I posted in part 1 of this thread from the Detroit News. Here you have the media FINALLY speaking out and saying precisely what Greg started this thread to stress to us. The government under the Bush administration is, in the name of fighting terrorism ,and in the name of security, trying to change the laws of the Constitution so that it threatens our future freedoms.

The example of THE MEANS that governments use to gain more power and eventually TOTAL AND COMPLETE POWER over it's citizens are being employed here as they have all through history. The analogy that Greg used in describing those means has not been a popular one here, but though the names have been changed (not to protect the innocent), the same means are being applied here. It's very subtle the way governments do that ,so as Chahles said in his post above, we better all take that blue pill and open our eyes to what is happening here. If we don't our grandkids and great grandkids won't have the freedom we now enjoy. We cannot sit back and quietly allow our elected officials to take away our freedom, or tamper with what our founding fathers gave us as a means of insuring our freedom, the Constitution, no matter what they claim their cause may be for doing that. To allow them to do that is un-American. We have to preseve the Constitution and all it represents at all costs and we have to be ever watchful of those who would tamper with it.

BTW everyone please check out the post regarding the Virtual March on Washington. We only have until this Wed. the 26th to sign up to participate in that. It has been advertised on TV by Martin Sheen. It is our chance to do more than talk about all this. It is our chance to put our words into action. There is not much time left. I signed up to make my calls to my senators and the White House on Wed. Hussein must be stopped, but not without UN sanction. If a war is the only means of doing that, so be it, but at least give the UN a chance. The U.S. has never been in the business of taking over a government by force, acting without UN sanction, as is the case in this war with Iraq. We have in the past, only done that covertly. So please, at least, check out the site I posted and decide for yourselves. Let's do more than just talk. This can be done right in our own homes. It's a first. Help light up those switchboards all day long expressing to the government how we feel. It is going to be televised too.

Love, Connie

It's good evening in this part of the world Connie! Hi!

I would address the last part of your post, the virtual march on Washington.

I respect all people, all over the world who marched in the cities of their countries to demonstrate against the American prospective war on Iraq.

Not that I would join any of those demonstrations myself, but those demonstrations are sending a strong message to American goverment that NO COUNTRY will be allowed to control the world politics unilaterally. That's a good thing, isn't it? It makes you feel better... I hope so.

Kuwait is suffering from Saddam's regime not only since September 11 but since August 1990. Have you ever heard about Kwt POW still somewhere hidden in Iraqi jails after 12 years??
UN has done nothing at all about those issues, words, only empty words. This is a humanitarian matter which should never be forgotten.

I don't understand how Bush's administration cannot convince the entire world of the dangers by Saddam Hussein.

Iraq is accused of war crimes and crimes againt humanity. Iraqi goverment does possess weapons of mass destruction. Iraq is playing with UN for years and years.

Again my opinion about UN, words, and more words, no action.

The miracle solution to Iraqi crisis would be the internal tension, an internal revolution which would remove the Saddam's regime.

Honestly I don't believe that the "miracle" would ever occur.

If you tell me that other countries all over the world have the weapons of mass destruction, I would reply to you that those countries have normal regimes controlled by laws and under control.

Iraq is not governed by laws and Saddam has no sense of responsability. So he's a big threat even to Americans.
He's a possible threat to your kids.

Maybe you, the anti war crowd think that it is the ordinary people and not the elite who would pay the ultimate price of war??? Is that an issue with you guys?

Let me remind you of some fact:

Here is the list of some of the agents that independent experts said Iraq may posses:

Chemical weapons:

VX nerve gas
Sarin
Mustard gas
Phosgene
Chlorine gas
Cyanide

Biological weapons

Anthrax
smallpox
ricin
botulism

Isn't that scary? It is scary to all of us here in Kuwait for the last 12 years, trust me.

Oh, it's late here and I'm very tired, I hope that the things I wrote would make you think. That's the whole point of this thread.

Good night,
El

Hello Again...
I must have posted along with you Sabra and didn't read your post until today. Growing up in America, in times of "Peace", One doesn't real eyes the actual possibility of Evil in the World until it becomes subjective. Then the World becomes a another Place, where our perspective is altered forever and tinged with biasness that remains for protection.I am truly sorry for your family and those who have endured the same Wrath of Evil. It has made aware the Peaceful Souls that nothing should be taken for granted and at any Time, that anything CAN AND WILL happen if enough Good people do Nothing. Evil is all ways at WORK, while the Good vacations in the warmth of the Sun.
I hope and pray we can join OUR Forces and get to work stopping the blatant disregard of Human Life and it's potential for Divinity. This, of all places, is a ONEderful place to begin....

Thanks to all who care out there.

It is the very tonic I need for reassurance.

Keep on talking.

Hi Eleonora

Thank you for your response. I respect your viewpoint and I do understand why you hold that viewpoint. I have pretty much given my thoughts regarding the war, Hussein (who I think is a boil on the butt of humanity) and how I feel regarding with tampering with the Constitution so there is really no point in going over it again here. It is in all my previous posts.

Did you know that what the Bush administration is doing regarding this war in Iraq was something that Clinton advocated doing in his administration? Yet at that time, the House of Representatives, Task Force on Terrorism & Unconventionl Warfare shot it down. They pretty much said it was futile to take Saddam Hussein out. The Republican Party was the majority in the House of Reps. at that time, as they are now. The following is documentation of that and what was said regarding a war in Iraq. A war that the Republican administration under George W. Bush is now going to go ahead with regardless of UN and world opinion. This comes from an ABC News site and the following words are straight from the House of Representatives so I hope it is a valid enough source:

Task Force on Terrorism & Unconventional Warfare
U.S. House of Representatives Washington, D.C. 20515
The Iraqi WMD Challenge
Myths and Reality
Task Force Report, February 10, 1998



Nobody likes the idea of Saddam Hussein having weapons of mass destruction (WMD) and missiles capable of delivering their lethal warheads. The ramifications of their potential use in anger -- the numbers of fatalities and injured they might inflict -- are horrendous. However, as the US is getting ready to bomb in Iraq in order to address the challenge of that country's remaining WMD arsenal, one should examine dispassionately what might be conceivably accomplished, and what would be the ramifications of the massive bombing campaign the Clinton Administration is advocating.

Despite Baghdad's protestations, Iraq does have a small but very lethal operational arsenal of WMD and platforms capable of delivering them throughout the Middle East and even beyond. Although Iraq has been subjected to an unprecedented regimen of UN inspection and destruction of strategic military programs since the end of the Gulf War in the Spring of 1991, the international community has proven incapable of learning the entire scope of the Iraqi programs for fielding weapons of mass destruction, let alone eliminate these programs as mandated by the Security Council.

Significantly, the first major independent study of the possible magnitude of the Iraqi undeclared and concealed WMD arsenal was not conducted until the Summer of 1994. For this study, the BND (German Intelligence) relied on KNOWN Iraqi post-Gulf War illegal acquisitions of technology, sub-systems, and strategic materials in Western Europe (mainly Germany, Austria and Switzerland) to assess what could be done with these acquisitions. Even without taking into consideration such diverse inputs as Iraqi acquisitions from countries of the former Soviet Union, the PRC and Iran, as well as rumored but unproven acquisitions in Europe, the results of the BND study were startling for they pointed to several specific programs that not only had the UN inspectors been unaware of in mid 1994, but they have so far proven unable to discover and stop. For example, the Iraqi purchase of a special kind of igniter, with a short shelf-life, for SCUD-type warheads, strongly suggested that the Iraqis used these igniters for operational SCUD- type missiles, as they are capable of increasing the range. The BND thus concluded that it was "difficult to assess" the magnitude of the current Iraqi weapons program. There was no doubt that not only "some of the material equipment" was excluded from discovery and destruction by the UN, but certain projects were being revived and run clandestinely.

A new approach to studying the Iraqi WMD programs was adopted in the aftermath of the "defection" of Lt.Gen. Hussein Kamal in the Summer of 1995. Originated as an audacious ploy to destroy the anti-Saddam movement from within, the "defection" went sour when Baghdad panicked over reports of contacts between Kamal and the CIA in Amman. Consequently, Baghdad was compelled to surrender to the UN large quantities of material Kamal might have divulged while in Amman. Consequently, Kamal and his brother were lured back to Baghdad where they were promptly assassinated. Meanwhile, the entire perception of the extent of the Iraqi WMD program had to be reevaluated.

Most important was the realization that there is an on going Iraqi program the UN inspections team is highly unlikely to discover and stop. In January 1996, the assessment of the Israeli Military Intelligence was that within the next four years, Iraq would have ten SCUD launchers and some 150 SCUD-type missiles. Some of these missiles are to be equipped with warheads containing WMD. A major aspect of the Iraqi program as of the mid-1990s was the organization of a highly mobile transportation system for the operational elements. Thus, by late 1997, the Iraqis were capable of transferring a few thousand liters of biological materials to new concealed sites within two or three weeks without supervision. As far as Baghdad was concerned, once the materials were hidden, supervision may be permitted to resume as usual. Another indication of an anticipated expansion of Iraq's ballistic missile activities came in late 1997/early 1998 with the appointment of two senior officers -- Abd-al-Rizzaq Shihab of the Army and Muzahm Tassab al-Hassan of the Air Force -- as deputy heads of the Military Industries authority. Both generals held senior command positions of Iraqi missile forces during the Gulf War and are considered Iraq's leading experts in ballistic missile operations. Moreover, during 1997, Iraqi military units conducted several simulated deployments and launching of ballistic missiles of the type and range Iraq is not permitted to have.

Meanwhile, despite the ongoing presence of UN inspectors and the threat of resumed bombing, the Iraqi strategic arsenal continued to expand as the current British Government's threat assessment testifies. In early 1998, Iraq is known to possess 48 SCUD-type missiles and six launchers. (Gen. Wafiq Samarraj, the former chief of Iraqi Military Intelligence, knew of at least 45 SCUD-type missiles with range of over 600 km and several others being repaired at the time of his defection in 1994.) A large portion of the 45 BW warheads/bomb containers Iraq acknowledged constructing in the late 1980s are believed to have survived the Gulf War and still elude the UN inspectors. The British Government estimates that the Iraqis still have 30 warheads capable of carrying chemical and\or biological weapons' material. For these warheads and other weapons, Iraq has at least 8,400 liters of Anthrax, as well as 600 tons of chemicals that are sufficient for the production of 200 tons of VX nerve gas -- where a single droplet can kill. (Samarraj reported that in 1994 Iraq concealed 200 containers with biological weapons, more than half of which are still considered in operational condition.)

And while public attention is focused on ballistic missiles, Iraq has even more effective and lethal platforms of the delivery of its weapons of mass destruction. In late December 1996, German intelligence confirmed that Iraqi weapons technicians developed a drone described as "the little guy's cruise missile." This unmanned aircraft is made of plastics and plywood -- simple and cheap to produce without any tell-tale equipment that can attract the UN inspectors. The drone has a range of about 700 kilometers and is equipped with a very accurate GPS navigation system illegally purchased in the West. Each drone can carry 30 to 40 kilograms of biological or chemical warfare agents to the intended target. It is almost impossible to detect this drone by radar because of its size, slow speed and lack of metal parts. The BND's experts are most alarmed by the Iraqi fielding of a version of this drone that can be also launched from ships. Consequently, one cannot rule out the possibility of an Iraqi-controlled commercial ship suddenly launching these drones outside the coasts of Europe -- from where these missiles can reach and threaten London, Paris or Berlin -- as well as the Atlantic coast of the US.

Another type of chemical weapons known to be in the Iraqi arsenal is "Agent 15" nerve agent. According to British Government sources, Agent 15 is a non-lethal psychochemical nerve gas designed to stupefy enemy forces. It is a derivative of BZ. The agent can be disseminated in various forms -- from artillery and rocket warheads to pouring into water supplies. Depending on the concentration, Agent 15 can cause weakness, dizziness, disorientation, hallucinations and loss of co-ordination. At the level of concentration likely to affect unprotected troops on a battlefield, Agent 15 is expected to disorientate and disable soldiers for a relatively short time (measured in hours). Iraq is known to have experimented with BZ and various derivatives since at least 1985. The British learned that Iraq had built up large stocks of an operational version -- Agent 15 -- only in late 1997.

Thus, Iraq still has a small, diverse, but very deadly operational arsenal of WMD. If used operationally, the Iraqi weapons of mass destruction can cause heavy casualties among both civilian population and military forces not just in the Middle East, but even in the US. The key warhead and bomb components are very small and can be easily moved from one place of concealment to another. Furthermore, if the bulky protective measures of these components are removed, at a risk to the Iraqi troops and nearby population, the movement and concealment of these key warhead and bomb components becomes even more easy. Moreover, it is then virtually impossible to distinguish from afar between these warheads and comparable high-explosive systems -- say, artillery shells.

Assuming that the US located these clandestine WMD, it is still far from certain the US will be able to bomb and destroy all the Iraqi operational weapons. And this has nothing to do with the accuracy of aircraft or the penetrability of smart munitions. The problem lies in the ruthlessness of Saddam's regime and his desperate clinging to power. For example, what if the bulk of the chemical warhead components are stored in, say, the Baghdad Presidential Palace -- two miles southeast of the edge of the Baghdad West Airport. The eruption of any such warhead, let alone a larger storage container, as a result of bomb damage will devastate the heart of Baghdad -- killing countless innocent people. Is this a legitimate outcome of a US bombing campaign? The argument that Saddam is to be blamed for such a tragedy just because he had placed these weapons at the heart of Baghdad carries water only up to a certain point. Besides, Washington should dread the reverberations of such a justifiable act throughout the Muslim World. And what about an Iraqi "retaliation" against a US city using terrorists or a ship-borne drone?

Significantly, however, even if the US and its allies will have managed to destroy the bulk of Saddam WMD operational arsenal, this will provide only a short term solution. No bombing campaign against Iraq, and even an occupation of that country for that matter, is capable of destroying the hard core of Saddam Hussein's primary WMD development and production programs. The reason is that under current conditions these programs are run outside of Iraq -- mainly in Sudan and Libya, as well as Algeria (storage of some hot nuclear stuff). Thus, once the bombing campaign is over, the Iraqis can be expected to smuggle new weapons from Iraq's development sites and production lines - sites that remain untouched by allied bombing as well as unchecked by UN inspection teams. And, for as long as Saddam Hussein remains in power, this charade called disarming Saddam will continue.

One should not be surprised by this sad state of affairs.

The transfer of Iraqi WMD overseas started even before the outbreak of the Gulf War. Back in late 1990, when Baghdad realized Iraq would be subjected to intense bombing, key sensitive elements were smuggled out. Then, in the Spring of 1991, once the extent of the post-War inspection regime became clarified, especially given the type and amount of data provided to the West by numerous defectors, a second round of hasty smuggling took place. Essentially, the core of the next-generation projects of the Iraqi WMD programs was moved to safe-havens. A lot of know-how and key subsystems were shipped out with the idea of building alternate production facilities in the host countries.

Most important are the programs transferred to Libya and Sudan -- two of Iraq's closest allies during the Gulf War that have strong aspirations for WMD of their own. Libya, long struggling to overcome embargoes and the cancellation of arrangements for the supply of technology and systems from Western Europe, has been looking for the Iraqi embargo-busting knowledge and for Iraqi proven solutions for Libyan problems. Sudan needs WMD in order to hit the Black rebels in the south and deter Western intervention against the Islamist terrorism empire. Hence, Iraq found eager and willing partners for its efforts to circumvent the world's campaign against its WMD.

While the initial movements of WMD stuff were emergency measures or by- products of other considerations, Baghdad reexamined its posture by late 1993. By then, Saddam Hussein had already realized that the UN inspections were not going away, and that the US remained determined to continue the policy of containment and sanctions. Moreover, the US retaliation for the June 1993 narrowly averted an attempt on the life of former President Bush by Iraqi intelligence convinced Baghdad that there would be no reconciliation with the US in the foreseeable future. Hence, Baghdad adopted a long term strategy to endure the global pressure. In March 1994, Babil (a newspaper run by Saddam Hussein's eldest son Uday) declared that it would be "desirable for the leaders of Iraq, Libya and Sudan to hold a summit meeting ... and adopt a common stance" to meet the challenges facing the Arab World.

Meanwhile, Iraq was reviving the international support system for its WMD development and production programs. By late 1994, Iraq's secret purchasing system was completely restored. It was operating energetically not only to just restore previous capabilities but to support new projects -- mostly outside Iraq. Anticipating that the sanctions would be lifted from Iraq, many European firms were rushing to grab a good share of what used to be a very lucrative market. Presently, the Iraqi-run system is made up of an endless and redundant web of Western firms and technology plants, liaison people, banks and financial institutes, secret merchants and middlemen -- so that it is virtually impossible to discover all components, let alone bring down the system. The procurement system of the Iraqi intelligence has been resurrected, it functions, and it feels good. The present system has not only arose on the ruins of the previous one, but it has learned and overcome all the errors of the system of the 1980s. Significantly, virtually all the firms and plants that had worked for Iraq before the Gulf War have already found their way into the fold of the new system. This time however, many support and sustain programs in Libya and Sudan, as well as in third countries from where the Iraqis ship the goods on their own. Thus, when Lt.Gen. Hussein Kamal "defected" in the Summer of 1995, he was bringing data of what was left behind in Iraq -- not on the wave of the future already being constructed in Sudan and Libya.....

And so, the US is planning an instant-gratification bombing campaign that would neither destroy Iraq's WMD operational capabilities nor touch its main WMD production lines in Libya and Sudan.
At the same time, the strategic mega-trends in the Middle East, exacerbated by the current crisis environment, entice a dramatic breakout in the form of a regional war. Saddam Hussein is not the only local leader aspiring for war as the best way out of a political deadlock. In the case of Iraq, with the entire Iraqi Armed Forces -- from tanks and artillery pieces to aircraft, and from ammunition stockpiles to fuel dumps -- high on the US target list, Baghdad has a special incentive to "lose" them in heroic martyrdom -- say, spearheading and instigating a regional war with Israel -- rather than have them destroyed by US bombs and missiles. There are enough non-state entities -- from Arafat's pro-Iraq al-Fatah forces to the Islamist HAMAS, HizbAllah and Islamic Jihad -- who would gladly provide the spectacular and lethal provocation required to spark the cataclysmic eruption.

No WMD are required to set the Muslim World ablaze.

Meanwhile, the panic afflicting Israel only reduces Jerusalem's ability to make a realistic threat assessment, and formulate its strategy in a cool and calculated manner. And the US bombing campaign will only add some explosives and fuel to the flames.



http://www.vitrade.com/sudan_risk/wmd/iraq_wmd.htm

Love, Connie

This one's for you, jwhop!

I'm not sure that the whole attack and response timetable issue needs to be beat to death any more, but since you went to the trouble of making a long post abut it (near the end of the part 1 thread), I'll make a couple of observations..

First, it's important to remember that this timetable (the one you quoted) is now considered the "official" version of events ... but it was NOT what was announced in the immediate aftermath of the attack. As I mentioned in my first post on this subject (and documented with direct quotations cited in the mainstream press), both the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff AND Vice-President Dick Cheney clearly stated that NO fighter jets had been scrambled until after the Pentagon was hit, and this was confirmed by NORAD spokesman Major Mike Snyder. It was not until several days later that the timetable now considered the "real" one was released. Given the fact that all of the men who made the initial statements were directly involved in the command and response team (Cheney was not in the official chain of command, but he stated that he had been conferring with the President throughout the response process), it is patently absurd to claim that they were all "misinformed" about the response. This leaves only three possible explanations: 1) they were lying when they made these statements, 2) the later "official" timeline showing that jets WERE scrambled (just too late) is a lie, or 3) the people at the very top of the government and military are so mind-fogged and incompetent that they can't remember from day to day whether they scrambled interceptor jets or not. Although some might say in jest that our leadership is just that incompetent, I don't believe it for a minute, do you? Then that means that we are being lied to. There are no other possibilities.

If we leave that glaring question alone and assume that the now "official" timeline is true, whatever the explanation may be, that DOES make it at least possible that the failure to intercept before the WTC hits was just due to confusion and slower than normal response. (When you say that "No one should think a scramble means fighters are in the air," you are correct of course - but the Air Force website boasts that as a matter of routine F-15's go from "scramble order" to 29,000 feet in only 2.5 minutes.) However it doesn't even come CLOSE to explaining the failure to intercept flight 77 which attacked the Pentagon. For one thing, it is completely unbelievable that Air Traffic Controllers would wait nearly half an hour after Flight 77 changed course and broke communications before notifying NORAD ... although regulations require them to notify NORAD immediately AND two other hijacked jets have already crashed into the WTC's two towers. But even if that's true, why would NORAD scramble jets from Langley, 129 miles away from Washington, too late to get there, instead of Andrews 10 miles away? This is the seat of the US government being attacked, for heaven's sake!

Ahh ... now it gets interesting! We were told that there were no fighter jets available at Andrews, for various confused reasons. For example, nearly a week after the attack, these two conflicting stories both appeared in USA Today:

In reply to:

---

FIRST 'USA TODAY' STORY:

"Andrews Air Force Base, home to Air Force One, is only 15 miles [sic] away from the Pentagon, but it had no fighters assigned to it. Defense officials won't say whether that has changed."
--'USA TODAY,' 17 September 2001

SECOND 'USA TODAY' STORY:

"The District of Columbia National Guard maintained fighter planes at Andrews Air Force Base, only about 15 miles [sic] from the Pentagon, but those planes were not on alert and not deployed."
--'USA TODAY' September 17, 2001

---

Neither story is true. On the day after the attack, September 12, this story appeared in the San Diego Union-Tribune:

In reply to:

---

"Air defense around Washington is provided mainly by fighter planes from Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland near the District of Columbia border. The D.C. Air National Guard is also based there and equipped with F-16 fighter planes, a National Guard spokesman said.

"But the fighters took to the skies over Washington only after the devastating attack on the Pentagon..."

--'San Diego Union-Tribune' 12 September 2001

---

Now here's the really scary part. The official Andrews Air Force Base website today has NO MENTION of fighter units ... and a notice that the site was modified on September 13, 2001. But the same website in August of 2001 contained this description:

In reply to:

---

Andrews Air Force Base is a huge installation. It hosts two 'combat-ready' squadrons:

* the 121st Fighter Squadron (FS-121) of the 113th Fighter Wing (FW-113), equipped with F-16 fighters;

* the 321st Marine Fighter Attack Squadron (VMFA-321) of the 49th Marine Air Group, Detachment A (MAG-49 Det-A), equipped with F/A-18 fighters.

These squadrons are served by hundreds of full-time personnel.

---

And it goes on to describe their instant-readiness capabilities and their mission to defend the nation's capitol in emergency. Now you might well ask, how do I know what the official website USED to say? Well, it happens that there is a private archiving organization that keeps "snapshots" of every website ever on the net. It is www.archive.org, and the pre-WTC website still exists there, with all the information described above. I first checked it out about a year ago when I started looking into this stuff. And now the shocker. While writing this post, I went back to the archive.org site to make sure it was still there ... and it is ... but when I clicked on the link for it, this message popped up on-screen:



Nothing intimidating about that, huh?!

Now bear in mind, NO SUCH NOTICE appears when you access the current, official website. This notice only shows up when you attempt to access the privately archived pre-9/11 version of the site with the embarrassing information. Feel free to check it out, if it doesn't scare the bejesus out of you!

Anyway, jwhop, I don't know what more to say, except that everything about this stinks: the conflicting stories from top officials, the implausibility of the scenarios they suggest, the plainly evident phony stories and blatant coverups about fighter jets at Andrews that COULD have intercepted the attack, on and on. If this all sounds like a perfectly believable up-front and above-board story to you, then so be it! But it sure doesn't to me.

Love,
Greg

That's freaky, Greg.

Connie

Keep going everyone...... I needed to tell you all that I am participating...even tho' I am not participating.

My Libra has me flip-flopping so hard....it's important to present so many different points of view.

Greg...isn't it wonderful that so many different perspectives, from various parts of the world, are taking part in this?
Exactly what is needed, IMHO.

From Sabra's family story...to our own survivor of 9/11 in Charles....to El's unique point of view from her location...to our Canadian sisters...to our own Native Americans....it's a well rounded group InDeeeeeed.

And for what it's worth, I am blowing off and blowing by any bad manners...the topic itself is far too important to give power to anything beyond facts.

I have a lot of emotions about this as well....but it is very important that we let cooler heads prevail right now.

All the links have been very helpful and informative.

Connie...thankyou for all that you have contributed here....

Sabra! (((HUGS))) Blessings to you and your family....you all have my undying respect and awe.

I highly doubt I have the strength of character to have survived such horror.

And...I did receive your PM on the instructions for posting a link here....but that was right when Greg decided to launch this thread....and out of respect for his wishes for a peaceful discussion...I did not want the link to stir anything up.

But I still agree with the link....and the message in it....

Even tho' as Charles said...I am one of many in this generation born with Pluto in Virgo sextiling Neptune...and I was schooled thru the Watergate era...and the Vietnam war...never before have I experienced such a surge of Love for my country as I have come to feel over this situation.

It is very important that we all keep talking...and for those of us who have no links to provide...or facts to substantiate....we must keep reading...and informing ourselves.

The solution is communication.......we need all the imput we can get.....from all walks of life!

Now Greg...while checking over GW's chart tonight...I took note of an aspect that is likely to encompass you as well...if I remember your BD correctly.....

Are you currently experiencing Pluto opp Uranus? ...and if you are...do you think that lends you a unique insight as to where GW's head might be?

I know that my computer guru has that aspect now....and was born in 46.....I see it in him too.....

Just a slight offside topic variance.....but not without a reason.....it can be a hopeful aspect you know?

Provided one is open minded and flexible....you are .....I don't know about Gw....

ok guys...keep going....

and Peace!

Dani

Greg

These pages I linked are not from a site I searched to prove any point. This is the site moonflower posted. I merely made use of the information.

As to whether any fighters were scrambled or not, one of the F-15 pilots scrambled from Otis AFB stated they were on burners (afterburners) all the way. Believe it or not.

It's patent nonsense that from the scramble klaxon going off fighters would be at 29,000 ft in 2.5 minutes. These fighters aren't sitting on the runway with the engines started and idling and the pilots in the cockpit cleared for takeoff. It takes a crew to get them into the air and that crew isn't camping out in the shade under the wings either.

Flight 77 which hit the Pentagon turned off the transponder and disappeared from radar. They weren't sure where it was. I think it's actual flight path was pieced together later from time and distance calculations.

Further, if flight 77 was flying South as believed, it would make perfect sense to scramble fighters from Langley AFB in Virginia and not from Andrews in Washington. The fact is, air traffic control didn't know where it was. There was even some speculation that it blew up in midair.

Just because fighters are stationed at an airbase doesn't mean they are fueled, preflighted, armed and ready to fly. It also doesn't mean pilots are suited up or even on the base unless that base is designated for flying patrols or NORAD interception. In the case of Air National Guard units, you need to keep in mind these are weekend warriors. The planes may be sitting there but they're not necessarily fueled, armed or ready to fly either. I can tell you that the pilots in those Guard units are out selling insurance, real estate, stocks and bonds or otherwise working civilian jobs during the week.

In military lingo, if you want believe in a conspiracy, "carry on"

jwhop

Hi jwhop,

I just read your post and I would like to know if all of this is just your opinion or do have experience with F-16 fighter jets and all that you stated regarding the Air Force and National Guard? Weekend warriors is a myth. I live right by Selfridge Air National Guard base and there is activity there all the time day in and day out. All night long too, as I have been awakened by low flying planes. Planes are always in the air. The base is always staffed with personnel. Also last night on CNN they did a report on the F-16 fighter planes and filmed one of the reporters going up in an F-16 with the crew. They do reach the attitude of 29,000 ft. in 2 mins. It was stated in the report. They have to wear special suits that inflate and deflate so they do not pass out because they reach those altitudes so fast. That is a lot of G-forces on the body.

Not to be argumentative, that is not my purpose, nor am I attacking you, so please don't get that impression. I would just like to point something out. I think you have selective and biased reasoning. Case in point: If you go back and read the posts you will see that when we discussed what CIA agent David Schippers told the press about the prior warnings the White House had regarding the attack on 9/11 you used selective and biased reasoning when you checked the provided site and read his account. You believed that he was telling the truth concerning the weapons that Hussein possessed and his connections with the terrorists, yet you think he lied about his attempts to warn the government of this attack, along with FBI agents who also tried to warn the government only to be ignored. See what I mean? He lied about the part that supported our opinion but disagreed with yours. While on the other hand, Schippers told the truth when what he said supported your position. How can David Schippers lie on the one hand but be truthful on the other? In fact, one of the FBI agents was harrassed by his superiors for his attempts in trying to inform the government. That agent has a law suit against the government now for harrassing him and trying to interfere in his performing his sworn duty to this country. David Schippers is representing him as his attorney in that suit. That information is in the site I provided in a previous post. Would this FBI agent and Schippers be suing the government if they were lying? Schippers was close to this administration. Yet he obviously is a man of principle. It was a man of principle who called himself "deep throat" that brought down the Nixon administration. Good men come forward with the truth. And if you remember everyone in the Nixon administration denied and lied about the facts he made known to the two Washington Post reporters.

This is beside the point though. What I am pointing out here is that you only listen to and believe what you want to hear and close your mind to anything that suggests the contrary. There is a saying, " the mind is like a parachute, it only functions when it is open."

The information that you provided was from the site that I posted. I believe in presenting and looking at all the facts. Though the point of that was as Greg said, the FAA later changed those times and released that one as the official times.

I am not saying conspiracy, though that may apply here, because the government agencies, if lying to cover the truth are conspiring to decieve the public. I am saying cover-up. Same thing I guess. I would not mind at all to be dead wrong about all this because I want to believe the best about my government too. I won't deny facts and evidence in order to do that though.

Remember, it is not my intention here to say anything negative about you or attack you. You are an intelligent person and I respect your opinions. I just wish you could do the same with our opinions. Disagree fine. But please stop making personnel remarks about people's character, and stop judging their motives. You don't know anyone's motives and intentions. Only God does.

Love, Connie

Okay, this is comedy now!

jwop, do you really believe that airplanes disappear from radar if they turn their transponders off? Why that's so silly if that were true, we would be totally defenseless against attacks from enemy airplanes, all they'd have to do is turn off their transponders!

Who needs stealth technology to avoid radar? Just turn off the transponders! Hee, hee ...

Oh I'm sorry, I just really didn't think anybody actually believed that story about turning off the transponders and disappearing from radar, it's so patently ... silly.

In reply to:

---

In the case of Air National Guard units, you need to keep in mind these are weekend warriors. The planes may be sitting there but they're not necessarily fueled, armed or ready to fly either. I can tell you that the pilots in those Guard units are out selling insurance, real estate, stocks and bonds or otherwise working civilian jobs during the week.

---

Yeah, that makes perfect sense that the military would staff the Washington D.C. airbase designated to defend the center of government with weekend warriers and unfueled airplanes parked in hangars. And that's probably why they hastily removed any mention of those units being stationed there from the government website, so folks wouldn't get the mistaken impression that there were actually combat ready fighters there to protect the Capitol ...

Ah jwhop, I think I'm finally beginning to see the humor in this. There really isn't any point in us trying to discuss this, we are just inhabiting totally different realities! But I love you anyway.

Indeed, carry on!

Love,
Greg

Hello Connie!

I'm glad that we both agree on one very important issue: Saddam's Iraq has WMD, even though all those inspectors are not capable of finding that many... They do exist and the world has to deal with that problem!

Thanks for the documentation from ABS news site (btw I watch daily all the major American and British news channels via satellite, so I guess I'm well informed about USA internal politics too)

That document says that NOBODY since the Gulf war, NOBODY was capable of dealing successfully with Iraq's WMO.

"most important was the realization that there is an on going Iraqi program the UN inspections team is highly unlikely to discover and stop"

Well, WMO in Iraq are well hidden, Saddam had built many underground tunnels al over Iraq. So the inspectors would never be able to find WMO. Why would we all want inspectors to continue their job? What job? For how long? Why waste anymore time?

The same document says what if during the bombardments of Iraq US hits one of those hidden stores for chemical warheads, as a result it will kill countless innocent Iraqi people...

I'm asking you Connie, what if Iraq attacks Kuwait with those weapons, countless