Hi all, I thought it would be a good idea to start a new thread to continue this discussion since it is still lively but got sooo long and slow to load!

Sabra I wanted to respond to your last post about my references to Hitler's strategy for grabbing power in comparison to the present administrations techniques for grabbing power.

First, my friend, I want to say that I understand completely the emotional charge that Nazism has for you ... and to assure you that I fully concur. Don't forget that my father was a European (Hungarian) Jew, and I have relatives who died in concentration camps. My first wife was Jewish and my children are Jews. There is no lack of sensitivity on my part. And there is no one more aware or appreciative than I of the haven this country (America) has been and IS to oppressed and downtrodden people throughout the world, of ALL races, religions and nationalities.

I do not discount that for an instant, in fact it is the extreme value I place on this country and its contribution to world humanity that prompts me to make what are sometimes very harsh criticismns of some elements of the current power structure here. Please remember that it is neither America nor the American government, both of which I treasure, that I am criticizing, but rather a small but extremely powerful "clique" of folks who have wormed their way into positions of great power in the political and bureaucratic structure of this country.

With that in mind, I sincerely apologize for the distress that my use of Nazi comparisons has obviusly caused you and others ... but I stand by it for several reasons.

In attempting to convey the reality that the strategy and tactics now being used by the current administration CAN BE and HAVE BEEN used to usher in horrendously oppresswive regimes in the past, there is simply no example that conveys this as vividly as the example of Hitler's rise to power, I could have used 1984 or other fictional works describing totalitarian takeovers, but fiction is just that ... it is "stories," not reality, and for that reason is easily dismissed and conveys little or nothing of the real horror of a totalitarian regime. Or I could have used events in the Communist rise to power during and after the Russian Revolution in the early part of this century ... but there are many who feel that the Communists were in theory a noble political idea, and that the Russian revolution might have resulted in a humanitarian society had it not been unfortunately taken over by brutal leaders who used its ideals cynically. So that example, too, fails to convey the stark reality of how these tactics can lead to total, brutal state control over society and the individual.

As horrifying and uncomfortable to contemplate as it is, I think it is critical for all of us to understand vividly what is really at stake here. If a totalitarian regime DID succeed in grabbing power here ... and I am convinced that is the intention, though certainly not the current reality ... it would be no less brutal than Nazi Germany, whether it involved targeting a specific race for extinction or not. Look at every totalitarianism we are historically aware of, whether organized around racial hatred or not: the Stalinists with their murder of millions on the Gulag ... the "Cultural Revolution" of the Chinese Communists with their equally brutal mass murders of millions of their own citizens ... this is what totalitarian regimes do! It is no use pussyfooting around and pretending otherwise, as painful as it is to contemplate. I pray to God that such a thing does not befall America ... but if it does, and there are those who want it to ... it will be just as murderous as Nazi Germany, as Stalinist Russia, as Maoist China. We DO need to recognize that, before we complacently dismiss the possibility.

Now in response to your objection to the thought that "In my own personal opinion, extermination of the Jews was never a PRIMARY motive of Hitler's rise to power...." it seems to me that, oddly enough, the article you quoted pretty much made the same point! Josef Hall says:

In reply to:

---

"When I now broached the question of what the source of his so strongly felt hatred for the Jews was, and why he wanted to destroy this so undeniably intelligent race - a race to which the Germans and all other Aryans, if not the entire world, owed an incalculable debt in virtually all fields of art and knowledge, research and economics - Hitler suddenly calmed down and gave this unexpectedly sober and almost dispassionate explanation:"

"It is manifestly clear and has been proven in practice and by the facts of all revolutions that a struggle for ideals, for improvements of any kind whatsoever, absolutely must be supplemented with a struggle against some social class or caste."

"My object is to create first-rate revolutionary upheavals, regardless of what methods and means I have to use in the process. Earlier revolutions were directed either against the peasants, or the nobility and the clergy, or against dynasties and their network of vassals, but in no case has revolution succeeded without the presence of a lightning rod that could conduct and channel the odium of the general masses."

"With this very thing in mind I scanned the revolutionary events of history and put the question to myself against which racial element in Germany can I unleash my propaganda of hate with the greatest prospects of success? I had to find the right kind of victim, and especially one against whom the struggle would make sense, materially speaking. I can assure you that I examined every possible and thinkable solution to this problem, and, weighing every imaginable factor, I came to the conclusion that a campaign against the Jews would be as popular as it would be successful."

---

Here Hitler states very plainly that his object is "to create first-rate revolutionary upheavals, regardless of what methods and means I have to use," and that he questioned "against which racial element in Germany can I unleash my propaganda of hate with the greatest prospects of success? I had to find the right kind of victim..." Finally, after he "examined every possible and thinkable solution to this problem, and, weighing every imaginable factor, I came to the conclusion that a campaign against the Jews would be as popular as it would be successful."

In his own words, the OBJECT was to create revolutionary upheavals, and the METHOD, after considering many possible solutions, was a campaign against the Jews.

For whatever that's worth.

Love,
Greg

Hi Greg

It's so easy for governments to decieve us isn't it? We can be manipulated without even being aware of it. I think that is because we all are busy with our lives, our families and jobs, and especially here in the U.S. we are, on the most part, trusting of our elected officials.

Even if it isn't this administration, if we allow THEM to change the laws unconstitutionally in the name of terrorism, it leaves us vulnerable for a future Hitler or Hussein type. It seems that a long time back the elected officials decided that the Constitution restricted their powers too much so they have systematically been trying to eradicate it altogether. The Constitution is the legacy our forefathers gave us as the only means of protection from the dictators of the world. We can't let them take that protection away from us.

Nice seeing you here in part ll.

Love, Connie

Hi Greg,

Thank you for responding to my post above. Also for understanding. I do appreciate that. No, I didn't forget that your father was Jewish.

Terri asked me a question above (I mean in part 1) and I have been working on a response (before you posted the above) which I am now putting up next because I think she deserves an answer, so I like to ask you to bear with me here for a moment.

Sabra

Hi Terri,

I am only bringing this up because Terri mentioned that she didn't understand why I am taking this personal. Actually Terri, it is one of the most thoughtful, caring question (the way you asked it) I have seen by anyone here in these types of discussions. So I want to say, thank you.

In reply to:

---

I hope this isn't going to be construed as a personal attack - although I am going to single out three people on this thread with a question. Jwhop, Joy and Sabra (although I know Joy isn't here anymore, still I would have liked to know her answer to this) - guys - why does this line of questioning and conversation make you seem so angry? I really don't understand it. I mean I understand (and truely respect) the fact that you think differently. But I don't understand why it all seems so personal? Why do you really care what Greg and the others here think of the Bush administration or the story behind 9-11?

---

What made you think I was angry ? In all honesty I thought it was Ginny who was angry here. I was just joining in the debate and asking questions. I hope you don't think just because I disagree, I am angry.

But I have to say I do take it personally. Not the Bush administration or the story behind 9-11. I don't even care that much for President Bush (sorry Jwhop) and I am against war. But I do think that Saddam should be stopped and if that means war then so be it unless there are other ways to stop him.

Here is what I am taking personally and why. It is the Nazi references. Again, as I said above, I have no problem discussing the Nazi's, but it is the comparisons to our government.

My parents and family are holocaust survivors. My father was born and raised in Vienna, Austria. He was constantly beaten and brutalized by the Nazi's as a child and while growing up, all because he was Jewish. At seventeen he was ready to go to the university but couldn't, because no Jews were allowed to now, again all because of his religion.

He fled Vienna in 1938 right after Kristallnacht "Night of Broken Glass" to Palestine where he was recruited for the British Army. My grandfather was missing one day and never heard from again. It is assumed he perished either in the camps or killed by the Nazi's. Nobody knows. My grandmother survived, fled and lived in Israel. My father's uncle, who had a wife and two children were taken away, and never heard from again either. It is presumed they died in one of the concentration camps.

My mother was born and raised in Königsberg, (now Kaliningrad) but was considered Germany since the territory was occupied by Hitler's Germany. When my mother was seventeen, she along with her aunt and uncle watched in horror as the Nazi's marched in front of their synagogue and torched it as they stood there helplessly. They had belonged to this synagogue for many, many years. This was only one of 200 synagogues that were destroyed during Kristallnacht. My mother's family was just a middle class German working family - far from being rich. But like all the Jews, everything they owned was taken away. Everything!

My mother's Aunt and Uncle managed to escape to the U.S. My mother was left behind in Germany because there was no money for her trip. Hitler's Germany decreed that no more ships could leave Germany.

Later, my mother caught up with the Jewish Agency at the time that was part of the underground where they provided ways to escape Hitler's Germany. The final destination of the escapees was Palestine and the goal was to take only the "strongest" to help build Israel. There were only so many people they could take. The agency refused to take my mother because of all things "she was to skinny". My mother had a friend who the agency wanted to go to Palestine. She said if my mother "couldn't go then I will not go either". Finally the agency and the underground relented.

In September 1940, around 3,000 Jewish refugees from Vienna, Prague and Danzig were attempting to reach Palestine. In a convoy of four river steamers, they set sail down the Danube and reached the Romanian port of Tulcea where they transferred to three Greek cargo ships named Atlantic, Pacific and Milos. Conditions on board these three ships were horrendous, reminiscent of Japanese hell-ships later in the war. Eventually the ships reached Palestinian waters, but the British Colonial Office refused them permission to land. The British Government had decided to take drastic steps in order to put an end to the illegal immigration, and announced the following day that the immigrants were to be deported to Mauritius where a special camp was to be built, and that their fate would be decided when the war ended.

When the ships arrived in Haifa, their passengers were transferred to yet another ship, which the British intercepted earlier, called the S/S Patria. The Patria was under repairs in the Harbor.

As the last passengers from the Atlantic were coming on board, a tremendous explosion ripped the liner apart. The death toll amounted to 267 refugees killed. The Haganah (Jewish underground army) decided that the expulsion of illegal immigrants must be prevented at all costs and succeeded in smuggling a mine aboard the ship. The explosion was the work of the Haganah, who had meant only to damage the ship to prevent it sailing.

But they miscalculated the force the explosion would have on an aging ship. The ship was not merely disabled but sank rapidly. Within 15 minutes, the 12,000-ton liner plunged to the bottom of Haifa Bay.



There was not a single home in the entire City of Haifa that was not affected by the disaster. Furnishing of every type, clothing of every description was donated to the survivors. Children were left orphaned and parents lost their children. The British Government in charge of Palestine declared that they would not deport the survivors of the Patria nor The Atlantic in the light of "Special dispensations of mercy on the grounds of the horrors they had just experienced board the S/S Patria." The roughly 1,700 Jews were interned in a detention camp at Atlit. They were permitted to stay in pre-state Israel and were released in groups throughout 1941.

My mother was one of the 1,700 survivors on the S/S Patria . . .

Now after reading a small portion of my family's history can you (and anybody else) see why I am taking this personal when any comparison is made to the Nazi's? From my viewpoint, the U.S. government does not even come close.

Sabra

"These are the threads of Our Lives...."

Sooner or Later I knew I would have to jump in.



Politics. Or the lack of It. The incredible task of the Evolved Human to deal with. The daily survival of collective Minds in a World ravaged with individual Uniqueness; resulting in the constant banter, ploys, strategies and schemes of those who were given the "inside" Word.
We call them, "THEM." AKA: THEY
Because we aren't sure WHO THEY are.
Are they You?
Purhaps they are Me?
Are they Him? Or Her?
Are they Us?

They can't be US...we would know THEM when we see US right?
I mean Are we THEM? Are they US?

Certainly (and I have pondered this )....
ALIENS aren't running the Earth!!!?
Are they?

Because if they are....there is definitely a conspiracy going on FAR beyond OUR daily comprehension AND we really have nothing to worry about.We are subservient to THEM and must follow the Matrix.


OR


We can take the Blue Pill.
Open Our EYES and see what is happening here. In every critical mass of Evolution, the equinox teters within the great opposites of Hu-Man's equator. Great heights are acheived in both Spirit and Science...seeing the Galaxy in only ways Galileo could ever Dream of. And Dark Depths are revealed in the perversity of our Beings as Animus.....showing Caligula what ugliness really is.

The more things have changed the more they have remained the same. And so very often..."History will teach us Nothing." (Sting)
We are poised in a Time and a Space where the circumstances have been deja vu all over again, Man fighting man for food, water, money, power, flags, land and even sometimes Love...where every time the results have been Death, destruction, and the loss of Life; by far the most tragic and necessary requirement for War.

This Time, there is a Twist.
More people are Conscious than ever before.
But fewer people DO anything about It.
Awareness is only the First Step.
ACT-EON on the behalf of the Evolved Soul is not only necessary...but required, if THEY are to be stopped in THEIR mad attempt to control and manipulate the TIME AND LIVES of innocent, ignorant Human Beings; who breathe the same Air and drink the same Water THEY do! (Or do THEY eat and drink )
The Peace Full Evolved People of this Planet, no matter the Creed, Race or Religion, NOW have to act-ivate their focus on the SOURCE of Control we see as "THEM".
The Players in THEIR game of deception and double speak.
We know who THEY are. We just haven't the fight in US individually. Or even banded into close tight nieghborhood rallyers who petition the White House in small, fanatical groups....lobbyists or campaigners.
The red tape we follow will lead us back to the beginning of a circular fight especially designed to fade into complacency and tire out even the greatest Advocate.
The fight for our Free-Dome requires a Higher Understanding of the Human Nature, Patience and above all the Tenacity to forge ahead into the natural Evolution of Life....with respect for It as we go.

There is no Time to waste, as WE know.

"What are ya gonna do?" just doesn't cut it anymore.
DOing SOMETHING is what this Informational Revolution is all about. The Super Highway of Words and Communication has been opened by THEM, and now will be the key catalyst for their demise, as People of Like Minds around the word start talking...
Conversing.
Sharing.
Thinking.
Joining.
Spiraling
Evolving.....
DOING.
Changing.
Accepting.
Maintaining.
Evolving.....

We just have to real eyes, I think, that indeed
"we are NOT a-Lone" here and must use each other to fight THEM, the few. The Proud. The Ignorant.

To truly begin the NEW age as a World Community, without the NEW WORLD ORDER coming NOT from some carefully manipulated and constructed design by so few, but a sense of Awareness that won't TOLERATE hunger and homelessness, capital punishment or child pornography, murder and poverty at any level. An Awareness that nourishes the Minds of it's Children and nutures the Beings of it's Elderly. An Awareness the openly accepts individuals for which they stand, in all their embodiment and constitition.

An Awareness of Careness.
Without having to define It or Say It.

Chahles, to quote the words of Pogo.." I looked at the enemy and the enemy was me."

Glad you "jumped in" here.

THEY who are THEY? Are THEY Us? Maybe THEY are Us. Maybe we are THEM. They represent all the evils the human heart is capable of where there is no LIGHT, where there is no LOVE. Unevolved souls. THEY are dandy-lions. You can't really get rid of them. You root them out, spray them and kill them, but they keep coming back. For every dandy-lion you kill, another springs up to take it's place. And history will teach us nothing.

Awareness of Careness. I like that.

Love, Connie

Wow, Sabra, what a story. Thank you for sharing that with us, as painful as it is.

This is what we have to put an end to. Such human suffering and misery inflicted by other humans ... whether on the impossibly vast scale of the holocaust ... or on the streets and alleyways of some country where death squads hunt children like game ... or in so many trouble spots in the world where mines and machine guns are a neverending fact of life, and rival warlords sweep through raping and looting, to be swept out next week by different warlords who rape and loot again ... where homes are burned down and husbands are murdered in front of their wives and families for the crime of belonging to the wrong faction or ethnic group ... where children die of starvation and lie where they drop. This is what we must put an END to in the world, on all scales.

This is what happens wherever power and domination rather than love and justice govern the affairs of men. We must resist this on all levels - in the outward behavior we express and tolerate, and in the inner sanctum of our own hearts where love and power-lust are both born and chosen between.

Love and blessings on your family, past and present.

Love,
Greg

Exactly, Connie! Even if Bush and Co. were the greatest humanitarians in the world and wouldn't DREAM of abusing such powers, whoever inherits them next ... WILL use them. This is what the founding fathers knew, that regardless of intentions such power cannot be allowed, ever. Because once it exists, if those who hold it don't use it brutally, they will be slapped down and replaced by those who WILL. That's the nature of the Beast!

The only protection against the abuse of power is not to allow that power to exist!

Thanks for jumping in Chahles

In reply to:

---

To truly begin the NEW age as a World Community, without the NEW WORLD ORDER coming NOT from some carefully manipulated and constructed design by so few, but a sense of Awareness that won't TOLERATE hunger and homelessness, capital punishment or child pornography, murder and poverty at any level.

---

Yes!

Love,
Greg

Wow, that was beautiful, Sabra. The emotion and pain behind the facts of the story you shared...I must say, I am lost for words. Something that should have never happened happened to your family. My heart really goes out them--to all of those who went through that. Bless you, Sabra. It was an age of absolute ignorance and that is the reason I will *always* and I do stress ALWAYS regard Adolf Hitler as the most RAW EVIL man in history.

Hello everyone!

First of all I want to thank Greg, Sabra, Aries and Connie for their replies and comments.

I'm not going to reply to each of you separately guys.

I'm following this thread with a great interest. First of all I'm glad that the tone of the discussion has become more polite, that's great!

I can feel a lot of fear on this thread... The fear is a destructive force because it could separate us from reality.

We're all confronted by increasing uncertainty and confusion, there are so many possible threats. The fear exists as a fact among all of us.

You guys sense that something is not right, that you're in some kind of potential danger you can't quite put your finger on... I can understand that feeling.

Knowledge is definitely a main power against your fear, you do have right to get all the possible information and to learn as much as possible about things you fear.

But my opinion is that it's also too soon to point your finger at President Bush, not that I'm his admirer !

You need FACTS, you need written documents to accuse him/ or his administration. It's like going to court, the judge will not ask you for your opinion about certain matters, but he will certainly ask you for the written proof.

I have a feeling that you all feel that your country is somehow in the process of betraying you, the country which I'm sure you do love and respect and which was good to you until now?

Why do you think America would betray its citizens??? Greed?? Power?? Both???

America is far, honestly too far to ever reach totalitarian kind of regime which would establish political, social, cultural control over their citizens.

Your view of the future is over pessimistic, maybe as the direct consequence of the social situation.

Media can be very dangerous in increasing private anxieties and fears by creating irrational panic among many people.

It's great to share different ideas and opinions on this thread, but it's not that great to spread panic and fear.

Let's use this thread as a tool of knowledge and not as some kind of propaganda tool... sometimes it really looks like propaganda against Bush and America nowadays, from my point of view.

Peace and Light
El

Good Morning Sabra

I read your post last night and wanted to respond but I was speechless. I know that it's hard to believe that I would ever be speechless. My husband is always telling people not to encourage me.

Your family has been through the worst that can happen. They literally walked through the valley of evil and God delivered them from that evil.

Coming to this country must have been for them, and many others, like walking out of hell and into heaven. Those of us who were born and raised in the U.S. have no knowledge of what that must be like. We never had to look evil directly in the eye like your family did. This is not a perfect country, but it is still a beacon in the world, an oasis in the wilderness. The image that comes to my mind of how that experience must have been for your family and others is the scene from the Wizard of Oz when Dorothy's house lands in Oz and she opens the door. Having been spared the storm, she is delivered from her bleak world into a beautiful land of color and she is awed by what she sees. We Americans may take what we were blessed with for granted having never experienced what your family and so many others have been through. I can't, for that reason, say I KNOW, how you feel. I haven't walked a mile in your shoes, Sabra. I can only imagine it and conjure up in my mind the scene from the Wizard of Oz. But I wanted to let you know that I do understand how you feel, or at least I can imagine how you feel.

We Americans may seemed spoiled and callus to others who have not had the advantages we have had all our lives, but we aren't really. We love this country and would die to keep it the beacon it is for all the world. Many of us HAVE died to perserve this democracy. Even in the Land of Oz, for all it was and for it's beauty there was still evil (a la the wicked witch of the West) that Dorothy had to overcome. So when we Americans criticize our government it is only because we want to keep what we have free of the evils that may threaten it. The Constitution of this nation is more than words on a sheet of paper, it represents all the principles, values, and dogmas that this nation was established on. The Constitution of the U.S. IS our freedom, it is our protection from the evil of this world who would take it away from us in the blink of an eye. We have to be ever watchful and guard that Constitution so that when we do look around our world we can say, there but for the Grace of God, go I. Because if we don't stay ever watchful, what we love and value so dearly can be snatched away in a heartbeat by tyrants.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!! And God bless you and your family, Sabra.

Love, Connie

Hi El, thanks for that perspective. While I don't agree with you that what has been expressed on this thread and its precursor is "undocumented opinion" (in fact, there is some very careful documentation, with official sources quoted in detail, many of them directly from government documents, regulations, current & proposed legislation and responsible mainstream media sources), I DO think that you've hit the nail on the head about a very important aspect of this, and that is the spreading of fear. Fear is one of the most powerful emotions, and it is one of the MAJOR tools used to influence peoples' behavior and beliefs. All repressive governments have used fear to keep their citizens in line, and as pointed out earlier one of the classic methods used to GAIN power over people is to create or take advantage of a crisis that frightens people, and then offer a "solution" to that crisis that leads toward loss of freedom ... and people will often accept such solutions very readily if they are afraid. It's very easy to think "well, how important is it to give up a little bit of freedom if it will keep us and our families safe and protected from this terrible danger?"

And here's where the problem comes in for those of us who are VERY concerned about the loss of freedom: on the one hand, it is absolutely necessary to communicate the very real dangers of failing to resist such attempts to subvert freedom; but on the other hand, it is frightening ... and fear is exactly what those who would like to take away our freedoms WANT us to feel!

It's very hard to find a healthy balance between informing folks of real dangers that they need to guard against, and cossing the line into focusing so much on the negative and fearful aspects that it actually plays into the hands of those who WANT us to feel helpless and afraid ... because when we are afraid, we become much easier to manipulate, and we lose a lot of our own power of independent thought and action.

We need to find the right stance to be able to look at real dangers calmly and clearly, neither avoiding them nor being overwhelmed by them, without getting drawn into an "atmosphere" of fear and paranoia where negative possibilities dominate our thoughts and attentions. Even in the darkest situations facing the direst threats, we need to retain our ability to face them with confidence and firm resolve rather than fear and trembling ... and to keep in mind that no matter what the dangers, in the long run love is more powerful than fear, good is more powerful than evil, compassion and caring are more powerful than competition and hatred. Because if we lose THAT perspective and our basic optimism for life, then we are truly lost!

Thanks for the reminder!

Love,
Greg

Good Morning (or evening to you?) Eleonora

The fear we have is just what I said to Sabra in my post above. It is the fear that if the laws of the Constitution are changed or ignored in the name of terrorism, or anything else, we can lose the freedom we all hold so dear.

President Bush is really not the issue on a personal level. He may even be a well intentioned, nice guy for all we know. It is the policies of his administration. As Greg stated above, if the Constitution is tampered with, altered and changed for whatever the present cause may be, it leaves our country open for someone who is elected AFTER he leaves office, or any time in the future, to have TOTAL AND COMPLETE POWER. It takes away the rights and the voice of the people. Is it Bush or is it his advisors, and does it really matter WHO? All I can say is read the Constitution and then read all you can regarding the laws the Bush administration is trying to get passed in the name of fighting terrorism. Hell, at this point, Eleonora I am more afraid of Ashcroft and others in this administration than I am of terrorists. I want my grand daughters and my great grand kids to enjoy the freedom I have had. Read the article I posted in part 1 of this thread from the Detroit News. Here you have the media FINALLY speaking out and saying precisely what Greg started this thread to stress to us. The government under the Bush administration is, in the name of fighting terrorism ,and in the name of security, trying to change the laws of the Constitution so that it threatens our future freedoms.

The example of THE MEANS that governments use to gain more power and eventually TOTAL AND COMPLETE POWER over it's citizens are being employed here as they have all through history. The analogy that Greg used in describing those means has not been a popular one here, but though the names have been changed (not to protect the innocent), the same means are being applied here. It's very subtle the way governments do that ,so as Chahles said in his post above, we better all take that blue pill and open our eyes to what is happening here. If we don't our grandkids and great grandkids won't have the freedom we now enjoy. We cannot sit back and quietly allow our elected officials to take away our freedom, or tamper with what our founding fathers gave us as a means of insuring our freedom, the Constitution, no matter what they claim their cause may be for doing that. To allow them to do that is un-American. We have to preseve the Constitution and all it represents at all costs and we have to be ever watchful of those who would tamper with it.

BTW everyone please check out the post regarding the Virtual March on Washington. We only have until this Wed. the 26th to sign up to participate in that. It has been advertised on TV by Martin Sheen. It is our chance to do more than talk about all this. It is our chance to put our words into action. There is not much time left. I signed up to make my calls to my senators and the White House on Wed. Hussein must be stopped, but not without UN sanction. If a war is the only means of doing that, so be it, but at least give the UN a chance. The U.S. has never been in the business of taking over a government by force, acting without UN sanction, as is the case in this war with Iraq. We have in the past, only done that covertly. So please, at least, check out the site I posted and decide for yourselves. Let's do more than just talk. This can be done right in our own homes. It's a first. Help light up those switchboards all day long expressing to the government how we feel. It is going to be televised too.

Love, Connie

It's good evening in this part of the world Connie! Hi!

I would address the last part of your post, the virtual march on Washington.

I respect all people, all over the world who marched in the cities of their countries to demonstrate against the American prospective war on Iraq.

Not that I would join any of those demonstrations myself, but those demonstrations are sending a strong message to American goverment that NO COUNTRY will be allowed to control the world politics unilaterally. That's a good thing, isn't it? It makes you feel better... I hope so.

Kuwait is suffering from Saddam's regime not only since September 11 but since August 1990. Have you ever heard about Kwt POW still somewhere hidden in Iraqi jails after 12 years??
UN has done nothing at all about those issues, words, only empty words. This is a humanitarian matter which should never be forgotten.

I don't understand how Bush's administration cannot convince the entire world of the dangers by Saddam Hussein.

Iraq is accused of war crimes and crimes againt humanity. Iraqi goverment does possess weapons of mass destruction. Iraq is playing with UN for years and years.

Again my opinion about UN, words, and more words, no action.

The miracle solution to Iraqi crisis would be the internal tension, an internal revolution which would remove the Saddam's regime.

Honestly I don't believe that the "miracle" would ever occur.

If you tell me that other countries all over the world have the weapons of mass destruction, I would reply to you that those countries have normal regimes controlled by laws and under control.

Iraq is not governed by laws and Saddam has no sense of responsability. So he's a big threat even to Americans.
He's a possible threat to your kids.

Maybe you, the anti war crowd think that it is the ordinary people and not the elite who would pay the ultimate price of war??? Is that an issue with you guys?

Let me remind you of some fact:

Here is the list of some of the agents that independent experts said Iraq may posses:

Chemical weapons:

VX nerve gas
Sarin
Mustard gas
Phosgene
Chlorine gas
Cyanide

Biological weapons

Anthrax
smallpox
ricin
botulism

Isn't that scary? It is scary to all of us here in Kuwait for the last 12 years, trust me.

Oh, it's late here and I'm very tired, I hope that the things I wrote would make you think. That's the whole point of this thread.

Good night,
El

Hello Again...
I must have posted along with you Sabra and didn't read your post until today. Growing up in America, in times of "Peace", One doesn't real eyes the actual possibility of Evil in the World until it becomes subjective. Then the World becomes a another Place, where our perspective is altered forever and tinged with biasness that remains for protection.I am truly sorry for your family and those who have endured the same Wrath of Evil. It has made aware the Peaceful Souls that nothing should be taken for granted and at any Time, that anything CAN AND WILL happen if enough Good people do Nothing. Evil is all ways at WORK, while the Good vacations in the warmth of the Sun.
I hope and pray we can join OUR Forces and get to work stopping the blatant disregard of Human Life and it's potential for Divinity. This, of all places, is a ONEderful place to begin....

Thanks to all who care out there.

It is the very tonic I need for reassurance.

Keep on talking.

Hi Eleonora

Thank you for your response. I respect your viewpoint and I do understand why you hold that viewpoint. I have pretty much given my thoughts regarding the war, Hussein (who I think is a boil on the butt of humanity) and how I feel regarding with tampering with the Constitution so there is really no point in going over it again here. It is in all my previous posts.

Did you know that what the Bush administration is doing regarding this war in Iraq was something that Clinton advocated doing in his administration? Yet at that time, the House of Representatives, Task Force on Terrorism & Unconventionl Warfare shot it down. They pretty much said it was futile to take Saddam Hussein out. The Republican Party was the majority in the House of Reps. at that time, as they are now. The following is documentation of that and what was said regarding a war in Iraq. A war that the Republican administration under George W. Bush is now going to go ahead with regardless of UN and world opinion. This comes from an ABC News site and the following words are straight from the House of Representatives so I hope it is a valid enough source:

Task Force on Terrorism & Unconventional Warfare
U.S. House of Representatives Washington, D.C. 20515
The Iraqi WMD Challenge
Myths and Reality
Task Force Report, February 10, 1998



Nobody likes the idea of Saddam Hussein having weapons of mass destruction (WMD) and missiles capable of delivering their lethal warheads. The ramifications of their potential use in anger -- the numbers of fatalities and injured they might inflict -- are horrendous. However, as the US is getting ready to bomb in Iraq in order to address the challenge of that country's remaining WMD arsenal, one should examine dispassionately what might be conceivably accomplished, and what would be the ramifications of the massive bombing campaign the Clinton Administration is advocating.

Despite Baghdad's protestations, Iraq does have a small but very lethal operational arsenal of WMD and platforms capable of delivering them throughout the Middle East and even beyond. Although Iraq has been subjected to an unprecedented regimen of UN inspection and destruction of strategic military programs since the end of the Gulf War in the Spring of 1991, the international community has proven incapable of learning the entire scope of the Iraqi programs for fielding weapons of mass destruction, let alone eliminate these programs as mandated by the Security Council.

Significantly, the first major independent study of the possible magnitude of the Iraqi undeclared and concealed WMD arsenal was not conducted until the Summer of 1994. For this study, the BND (German Intelligence) relied on KNOWN Iraqi post-Gulf War illegal acquisitions of technology, sub-systems, and strategic materials in Western Europe (mainly Germany, Austria and Switzerland) to assess what could be done with these acquisitions. Even without taking into consideration such diverse inputs as Iraqi acquisitions from countries of the former Soviet Union, the PRC and Iran, as well as rumored but unproven acquisitions in Europe, the results of the BND study were startling for they pointed to several specific programs that not only had the UN inspectors been unaware of in mid 1994, but they have so far proven unable to discover and stop. For example, the Iraqi purchase of a special kind of igniter, with a short shelf-life, for SCUD-type warheads, strongly suggested that the Iraqis used these igniters for operational SCUD- type missiles, as they are capable of increasing the range. The BND thus concluded that it was "difficult to assess" the magnitude of the current Iraqi weapons program. There was no doubt that not only "some of the material equipment" was excluded from discovery and destruction by the UN, but certain projects were being revived and run clandestinely.

A new approach to studying the Iraqi WMD programs was adopted in the aftermath of the "defection" of Lt.Gen. Hussein Kamal in the Summer of 1995. Originated as an audacious ploy to destroy the anti-Saddam movement from within, the "defection" went sour when Baghdad panicked over reports of contacts between Kamal and the CIA in Amman. Consequently, Baghdad was compelled to surrender to the UN large quantities of material Kamal might have divulged while in Amman. Consequently, Kamal and his brother were lured back to Baghdad where they were promptly assassinated. Meanwhile, the entire perception of the extent of the Iraqi WMD program had to be reevaluated.

Most important was the realization that there is an on going Iraqi program the UN inspections team is highly unlikely to discover and stop. In January 1996, the assessment of the Israeli Military Intelligence was that within the next four years, Iraq would have ten SCUD launchers and some 150 SCUD-type missiles. Some of these missiles are to be equipped with warheads containing WMD. A major aspect of the Iraqi program as of the mid-1990s was the organization of a highly mobile transportation system for the operational elements. Thus, by late 1997, the Iraqis were capable of transferring a few thousand liters of biological materials to new concealed sites within two or three weeks without supervision. As far as Baghdad was concerned, once the materials were hidden, supervision may be permitted to resume as usual. Another indication of an anticipated expansion of Iraq's ballistic missile activities came in late 1997/early 1998 with the appointment of two senior officers -- Abd-al-Rizzaq Shihab of the Army and Muzahm Tassab al-Hassan of the Air Force -- as deputy heads of the Military Industries authority. Both generals held senior command positions of Iraqi missile forces during the Gulf War and are considered Iraq's leading experts in ballistic missile operations. Moreover, during 1997, Iraqi military units conducted several simulated deployments and launching of ballistic missiles of the type and range Iraq is not permitted to have.

Meanwhile, despite the ongoing presence of UN inspectors and the threat of resumed bombing, the Iraqi strategic arsenal continued to expand as the current British Government's threat assessment testifies. In early 1998, Iraq is known to possess 48 SCUD-type missiles and six launchers. (Gen. Wafiq Samarraj, the former chief of Iraqi Military Intelligence, knew of at least 45 SCUD-type missiles with range of over 600 km and several others being repaired at the time of his defection in 1994.) A large portion of the 45 BW warheads/bomb containers Iraq acknowledged constructing in the late 1980s are believed to have survived the Gulf War and still elude the UN inspectors. The British Government estimates that the Iraqis still have 30 warheads capable of carrying chemical and\or biological weapons' material. For these warheads and other weapons, Iraq has at least 8,400 liters of Anthrax, as well as 600 tons of chemicals that are sufficient for the production of 200 tons of VX nerve gas -- where a single droplet can kill. (Samarraj reported that in 1994 Iraq concealed 200 containers with biological weapons, more than half of which are still considered in operational condition.)

And while public attention is focused on ballistic missiles, Iraq has even more effective and lethal platforms of the delivery of its weapons of mass destruction. In late December 1996, German intelligence confirmed that Iraqi weapons technicians developed a drone described as "the little guy's cruise missile." This unmanned aircraft is made of plastics and plywood -- simple and cheap to produce without any tell-tale equipment that can attract the UN inspectors. The drone has a range of about 700 kilometers and is equipped with a very accurate GPS navigation system illegally purchased in the West. Each drone can carry 30 to 40 kilograms of biological or chemical warfare agents to the intended target. It is almost impossible to detect this drone by radar because of its size, slow speed and lack of metal parts. The BND's experts are most alarmed by the Iraqi fielding of a version of this drone that can be also launched from ships. Consequently, one cannot rule out the possibility of an Iraqi-controlled commercial ship suddenly launching these drones outside the coasts of Europe -- from where these missiles can reach and threaten London, Paris or Berlin -- as well as the Atlantic coast of the US.

Another type of chemical weapons known to be in the Iraqi arsenal is "Agent 15" nerve agent. According to British Government sources, Agent 15 is a non-lethal psychochemical nerve gas designed to stupefy enemy forces. It is a derivative of BZ. The agent can be disseminated in various forms -- from artillery and rocket warheads to pouring into water supplies. Depending on the concentration, Agent 15 can cause weakness, dizziness, disorientation, hallucinations and loss of co-ordination. At the level of concentration likely to affect unprotected troops on a battlefield, Agent 15 is expected to disorientate and disable soldiers for a relatively short time (measured in hours). Iraq is known to have experimented with BZ and various derivatives since at least 1985. The British learned that Iraq had built up large stocks of an operational version -- Agent 15 -- only in late 1997.

Thus, Iraq still has a small, diverse, but very deadly operational arsenal of WMD. If used operationally, the Iraqi weapons of mass destruction can cause heavy casualties among both civilian population and military forces not just in the Middle East, but even in the US. The key warhead and bomb components are very small and can be easily moved from one place of concealment to another. Furthermore, if the bulky protective measures of these components are removed, at a risk to the Iraqi troops and nearby population, the movement and concealment of these key warhead and bomb components becomes even more easy. Moreover, it is then virtually impossible to distinguish from afar between these warheads and comparable high-explosive systems -- say, artillery shells.

Assuming that the US located these clandestine WMD, it is still far from certain the US will be able to bomb and destroy all the Iraqi operational weapons. And this has nothing to do with the accuracy of aircraft or the penetrability of smart munitions. The problem lies in the ruthlessness of Saddam's regime and his desperate clinging to power. For example, what if the bulk of the chemical warhead components are stored in, say, the Baghdad Presidential Palace -- two miles southeast of the edge of the Baghdad West Airport. The eruption of any such warhead, let alone a larger storage container, as a result of bomb damage will devastate the heart of Baghdad -- killing countless innocent people. Is this a legitimate outcome of a US bombing campaign? The argument that Saddam is to be blamed for such a tragedy just because he had placed these weapons at the heart of Baghdad carries water only up to a certain point. Besides, Washington should dread the reverberations of such a justifiable act throughout the Muslim World. And what about an Iraqi "retaliation" against a US city using terrorists or a ship-borne drone?

Significantly, however, even if the US and its allies will have managed to destroy the bulk of Saddam WMD operational arsenal, this will provide only a short term solution. No bombing campaign against Iraq, and even an occupation of that country for that matter, is capable of destroying the hard core of Saddam Hussein's primary WMD development and production programs. The reason is that under current conditions these programs are run outside of Iraq -- mainly in Sudan and Libya, as well as Algeria (storage of some hot nuclear stuff). Thus, once the bombing campaign is over, the Iraqis can be expected to smuggle new weapons from Iraq's development sites and production lines - sites that remain untouched by allied bombing as well as unchecked by UN inspection teams. And, for as long as Saddam Hussein remains in power, this charade called disarming Saddam will continue.

One should not be surprised by this sad state of affairs.

The transfer of Iraqi WMD overseas started even before the outbreak of the Gulf War. Back in late 1990, when Baghdad realized Iraq would be subjected to intense bombing, key sensitive elements were smuggled out. Then, in the Spring of 1991, once the extent of the post-War inspection regime became clarified, especially given the type and amount of data provided to the West by numerous defectors, a second round of hasty smuggling took place. Essentially, the core of the next-generation projects of the Iraqi WMD programs was moved to safe-havens. A lot of know-how and key subsystems were shipped out with the idea of building alternate production facilities in the host countries.

Most important are the programs transferred to Libya and Sudan -- two of Iraq's closest allies during the Gulf War that have strong aspirations for WMD of their own. Libya, long struggling to overcome embargoes and the cancellation of arrangements for the supply of technology and systems from Western Europe, has been looking for the Iraqi embargo-busting knowledge and for Iraqi proven solutions for Libyan problems. Sudan needs WMD in order to hit the Black rebels in the south and deter Western intervention against the Islamist terrorism empire. Hence, Iraq found eager and willing partners for its efforts to circumvent the world's campaign against its WMD.

While the initial movements of WMD stuff were emergency measures or by- products of other considerations, Baghdad reexamined its posture by late 1993. By then, Saddam Hussein had already realized that the UN inspections were not going away, and that the US remained determined to continue the policy of containment and sanctions. Moreover, the US retaliation for the June 1993 narrowly averted an attempt on the life of former President Bush by Iraqi intelligence convinced Baghdad that there would be no reconciliation with the US in the foreseeable future. Hence, Baghdad adopted a long term strategy to endure the global pressure. In March 1994, Babil (a newspaper run by Saddam Hussein's eldest son Uday) declared that it would be "desirable for the leaders of Iraq, Libya and Sudan to hold a summit meeting ... and adopt a common stance" to meet the challenges facing the Arab World.

Meanwhile, Iraq was reviving the international support system for its WMD development and production programs. By late 1994, Iraq's secret purchasing system was completely restored. It was operating energetically not only to just restore previous capabilities but to support new projects -- mostly outside Iraq. Anticipating that the sanctions would be lifted from Iraq, many European firms were rushing to grab a good share of what used to be a very lucrative market. Presently, the Iraqi-run system is made up of an endless and redundant web of Western firms and technology plants, liaison people, banks and financial institutes, secret merchants and middlemen -- so that it is virtually impossible to discover all components, let alone bring down the system. The procurement system of the Iraqi intelligence has been resurrected, it functions, and it feels good. The present system has not only arose on the ruins of the previous one, but it has learned and overcome all the errors of the system of the 1980s. Significantly, virtually all the firms and plants that had worked for Iraq before the Gulf War have already found their way into the fold of the new system. This time however, many support and sustain programs in Libya and Sudan, as well as in third countries from where the Iraqis ship the goods on their own. Thus, when Lt.Gen. Hussein Kamal "defected" in the Summer of 1995, he was bringing data of what was left behind in Iraq -- not on the wave of the future already being constructed in Sudan and Libya.....

And so, the US is planning an instant-gratification bombing campaign that would neither destroy Iraq's WMD operational capabilities nor touch its main WMD production lines in Libya and Sudan.
At the same time, the strategic mega-trends in the Middle East, exacerbated by the current crisis environment, entice a dramatic breakout in the form of a regional war. Saddam Hussein is not the only local leader aspiring for war as the best way out of a political deadlock. In the case of Iraq, with the entire Iraqi Armed Forces -- from tanks and artillery pieces to aircraft, and from ammunition stockpiles to fuel dumps -- high on the US target list, Baghdad has a special incentive to "lose" them in heroic martyrdom -- say, spearheading and instigating a regional war with Israel -- rather than have them destroyed by US bombs and missiles. There are enough non-state entities -- from Arafat's pro-Iraq al-Fatah forces to the Islamist HAMAS, HizbAllah and Islamic Jihad -- who would gladly provide the spectacular and lethal provocation required to spark the cataclysmic eruption.

No WMD are required to set the Muslim World ablaze.

Meanwhile, the panic afflicting Israel only reduces Jerusalem's ability to make a realistic threat assessment, and formulate its strategy in a cool and calculated manner. And the US bombing campaign will only add some explosives and fuel to the flames.



http://www.vitrade.com/sudan_risk/wmd/iraq_wmd.htm

Love, Connie

This one's for you, jwhop!

I'm not sure that the whole attack and response timetable issue needs to be beat to death any more, but since you went to the trouble of making a long post abut it (near the end of the part 1 thread), I'll make a couple of observations..

First, it's important to remember that this timetable (the one you quoted) is now considered the "official" version of events ... but it was NOT what was announced in the immediate aftermath of the attack. As I mentioned in my first post on this subject (and documented with direct quotations cited in the mainstream press), both the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff AND Vice-President Dick Cheney clearly stated that NO fighter jets had been scrambled until after the Pentagon was hit, and this was confirmed by NORAD spokesman Major Mike Snyder. It was not until several days later that the timetable now considered the "real" one was released. Given the fact that all of the men who made the initial statements were directly involved in the command and response team (Cheney was not in the official chain of command, but he stated that he had been conferring with the President throughout the response process), it is patently absurd to claim that they were all "misinformed" about the response. This leaves only three possible explanations: 1) they were lying when they made these statements, 2) the later "official" timeline showing that jets WERE scrambled (just too late) is a lie, or 3) the people at the very top of the government and military are so mind-fogged and incompetent that they can't remember from day to day whether they scrambled interceptor jets or not. Although some might say in jest that our leadership is just that incompetent, I don't believe it for a minute, do you? Then that means that we are being lied to. There are no other possibilities.

If we leave that glaring question alone and assume that the now "official" timeline is true, whatever the explanation may be, that DOES make it at least possible that the failure to intercept before the WTC hits was just due to confusion and slower than normal response. (When you say that "No one should think a scramble means fighters are in the air," you are correct of course - but the Air Force website boasts that as a matter of routine F-15's go from "scramble order" to 29,000 feet in only 2.5 minutes.) However it doesn't even come CLOSE to explaining the failure to intercept flight 77 which attacked the Pentagon. For one thing, it is completely unbelievable that Air Traffic Controllers would wait nearly half an hour after Flight 77 changed course and broke communications before notifying NORAD ... although regulations require them to notify NORAD immediately AND two other hijacked jets have already crashed into the WTC's two towers. But even if that's true, why would NORAD scramble jets from Langley, 129 miles away from Washington, too late to get there, instead of Andrews 10 miles away? This is the seat of the US government being attacked, for heaven's sake!

Ahh ... now it gets interesting! We were told that there were no fighter jets available at Andrews, for various confused reasons. For example, nearly a week after the attack, these two conflicting stories both appeared in USA Today:

In reply to:

---

FIRST 'USA TODAY' STORY:

"Andrews Air Force Base, home to Air Force One, is only 15 miles [sic] away from the Pentagon, but it had no fighters assigned to it. Defense officials won't say whether that has changed."
--'USA TODAY,' 17 September 2001

SECOND 'USA TODAY' STORY:

"The District of Columbia National Guard maintained fighter planes at Andrews Air Force Base, only about 15 miles [sic] from the Pentagon, but those planes were not on alert and not deployed."
--'USA TODAY' September 17, 2001

---

Neither story is true. On the day after the attack, September 12, this story appeared in the San Diego Union-Tribune:

In reply to:

---

"Air defense around Washington is provided mainly by fighter planes from Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland near the District of Columbia border. The D.C. Air National Guard is also based there and equipped with F-16 fighter planes, a National Guard spokesman said.

"But the fighters took to the skies over Washington only after the devastating attack on the Pentagon..."

--'San Diego Union-Tribune' 12 September 2001

---

Now here's the really scary part. The official Andrews Air Force Base website today has NO MENTION of fighter units ... and a notice that the site was modified on September 13, 2001. But the same website in August of 2001 contained this description:

In reply to:

---

Andrews Air Force Base is a huge installation. It hosts two 'combat-ready' squadrons:

* the 121st Fighter Squadron (FS-121) of the 113th Fighter Wing (FW-113), equipped with F-16 fighters;

* the 321st Marine Fighter Attack Squadron (VMFA-321) of the 49th Marine Air Group, Detachment A (MAG-49 Det-A), equipped with F/A-18 fighters.

These squadrons are served by hundreds of full-time personnel.

---

And it goes on to describe their instant-readiness capabilities and their mission to defend the nation's capitol in emergency. Now you might well ask, how do I know what the official website USED to say? Well, it happens that there is a private archiving organization that keeps "snapshots" of every website ever on the net. It is www.archive.org, and the pre-WTC website still exists there, with all the information described above. I first checked it out about a year ago when I started looking into this stuff. And now the shocker. While writing this post, I went back to the archive.org site to make sure it was still there ... and it is ... but when I clicked on the link for it, this message popped up on-screen:



Nothing intimidating about that, huh?!

Now bear in mind, NO SUCH NOTICE appears when you access the current, official website. This notice only shows up when you attempt to access the privately archived pre-9/11 version of the site with the embarrassing information. Feel free to check it out, if it doesn't scare the bejesus out of you!

Anyway, jwhop, I don't know what more to say, except that everything about this stinks: the conflicting stories from top officials, the implausibility of the scenarios they suggest, the plainly evident phony stories and blatant coverups about fighter jets at Andrews that COULD have intercepted the attack, on and on. If this all sounds like a perfectly believable up-front and above-board story to you, then so be it! But it sure doesn't to me.

Love,
Greg

That's freaky, Greg.

Connie

Keep going everyone...... I needed to tell you all that I am participating...even tho' I am not participating.

My Libra has me flip-flopping so hard....it's important to present so many different points of view.

Greg...isn't it wonderful that so many different perspectives, from various parts of the world, are taking part in this?
Exactly what is needed, IMHO.

From Sabra's family story...to our own survivor of 9/11 in Charles....to El's unique point of view from her location...to our Canadian sisters...to our own Native Americans....it's a well rounded group InDeeeeeed.

And for what it's worth, I am blowing off and blowing by any bad manners...the topic itself is far too important to give power to anything beyond facts.

I have a lot of emotions about this as well....but it is very important that we let cooler heads prevail right now.

All the links have been very helpful and informative.

Connie...thankyou for all that you have contributed here....

Sabra! (((HUGS))) Blessings to you and your family....you all have my undying respect and awe.

I highly doubt I have the strength of character to have survived such horror.

And...I did receive your PM on the instructions for posting a link here....but that was right when Greg decided to launch this thread....and out of respect for his wishes for a peaceful discussion...I did not want the link to stir anything up.

But I still agree with the link....and the message in it....

Even tho' as Charles said...I am one of many in this generation born with Pluto in Virgo sextiling Neptune...and I was schooled thru the Watergate era...and the Vietnam war...never before have I experienced such a surge of Love for my country as I have come to feel over this situation.

It is very important that we all keep talking...and for those of us who have no links to provide...or facts to substantiate....we must keep reading...and informing ourselves.

The solution is communication.......we need all the imput we can get.....from all walks of life!

Now Greg...while checking over GW's chart tonight...I took note of an aspect that is likely to encompass you as well...if I remember your BD correctly.....

Are you currently experiencing Pluto opp Uranus? ...and if you are...do you think that lends you a unique insight as to where GW's head might be?

I know that my computer guru has that aspect now....and was born in 46.....I see it in him too.....

Just a slight offside topic variance.....but not without a reason.....it can be a hopeful aspect you know?

Provided one is open minded and flexible....you are .....I don't know about Gw....

ok guys...keep going....

and Peace!

Dani

Greg

These pages I linked are not from a site I searched to prove any point. This is the site moonflower posted. I merely made use of the information.

As to whether any fighters were scrambled or not, one of the F-15 pilots scrambled from Otis AFB stated they were on burners (afterburners) all the way. Believe it or not.

It's patent nonsense that from the scramble klaxon going off fighters would be at 29,000 ft in 2.5 minutes. These fighters aren't sitting on the runway with the engines started and idling and the pilots in the cockpit cleared for takeoff. It takes a crew to get them into the air and that crew isn't camping out in the shade under the wings either.

Flight 77 which hit the Pentagon turned off the transponder and disappeared from radar. They weren't sure where it was. I think it's actual flight path was pieced together later from time and distance calculations.

Further, if flight 77 was flying South as believed, it would make perfect sense to scramble fighters from Langley AFB in Virginia and not from Andrews in Washington. The fact is, air traffic control didn't know where it was. There was even some speculation that it blew up in midair.

Just because fighters are stationed at an airbase doesn't mean they are fueled, preflighted, armed and ready to fly. It also doesn't mean pilots are suited up or even on the base unless that base is designated for flying patrols or NORAD interception. In the case of Air National Guard units, you need to keep in mind these are weekend warriors. The planes may be sitting there but they're not necessarily fueled, armed or ready to fly either. I can tell you that the pilots in those Guard units are out selling insurance, real estate, stocks and bonds or otherwise working civilian jobs during the week.

In military lingo, if you want believe in a conspiracy, "carry on"

jwhop

Hi jwhop,

I just read your post and I would like to know if all of this is just your opinion or do have experience with F-16 fighter jets and all that you stated regarding the Air Force and National Guard? Weekend warriors is a myth. I live right by Selfridge Air National Guard base and there is activity there all the time day in and day out. All night long too, as I have been awakened by low flying planes. Planes are always in the air. The base is always staffed with personnel. Also last night on CNN they did a report on the F-16 fighter planes and filmed one of the reporters going up in an F-16 with the crew. They do reach the attitude of 29,000 ft. in 2 mins. It was stated in the report. They have to wear special suits that inflate and deflate so they do not pass out because they reach those altitudes so fast. That is a lot of G-forces on the body.

Not to be argumentative, that is not my purpose, nor am I attacking you, so please don't get that impression. I would just like to point something out. I think you have selective and biased reasoning. Case in point: If you go back and read the posts you will see that when we discussed what CIA agent David Schippers told the press about the prior warnings the White House had regarding the attack on 9/11 you used selective and biased reasoning when you checked the provided site and read his account. You believed that he was telling the truth concerning the weapons that Hussein possessed and his connections with the terrorists, yet you think he lied about his attempts to warn the government of this attack, along with FBI agents who also tried to warn the government only to be ignored. See what I mean? He lied about the part that supported our opinion but disagreed with yours. While on the other hand, Schippers told the truth when what he said supported your position. How can David Schippers lie on the one hand but be truthful on the other? In fact, one of the FBI agents was harrassed by his superiors for his attempts in trying to inform the government. That agent has a law suit against the government now for harrassing him and trying to interfere in his performing his sworn duty to this country. David Schippers is representing him as his attorney in that suit. That information is in the site I provided in a previous post. Would this FBI agent and Schippers be suing the government if they were lying? Schippers was close to this administration. Yet he obviously is a man of principle. It was a man of principle who called himself "deep throat" that brought down the Nixon administration. Good men come forward with the truth. And if you remember everyone in the Nixon administration denied and lied about the facts he made known to the two Washington Post reporters.

This is beside the point though. What I am pointing out here is that you only listen to and believe what you want to hear and close your mind to anything that suggests the contrary. There is a saying, " the mind is like a parachute, it only functions when it is open."

The information that you provided was from the site that I posted. I believe in presenting and looking at all the facts. Though the point of that was as Greg said, the FAA later changed those times and released that one as the official times.

I am not saying conspiracy, though that may apply here, because the government agencies, if lying to cover the truth are conspiring to decieve the public. I am saying cover-up. Same thing I guess. I would not mind at all to be dead wrong about all this because I want to believe the best about my government too. I won't deny facts and evidence in order to do that though.

Remember, it is not my intention here to say anything negative about you or attack you. You are an intelligent person and I respect your opinions. I just wish you could do the same with our opinions. Disagree fine. But please stop making personnel remarks about people's character, and stop judging their motives. You don't know anyone's motives and intentions. Only God does.

Love, Connie

Okay, this is comedy now!

jwop, do you really believe that airplanes disappear from radar if they turn their transponders off? Why that's so silly if that were true, we would be totally defenseless against attacks from enemy airplanes, all they'd have to do is turn off their transponders!

Who needs stealth technology to avoid radar? Just turn off the transponders! Hee, hee ...

Oh I'm sorry, I just really didn't think anybody actually believed that story about turning off the transponders and disappearing from radar, it's so patently ... silly.

In reply to:

---

In the case of Air National Guard units, you need to keep in mind these are weekend warriors. The planes may be sitting there but they're not necessarily fueled, armed or ready to fly either. I can tell you that the pilots in those Guard units are out selling insurance, real estate, stocks and bonds or otherwise working civilian jobs during the week.

---

Yeah, that makes perfect sense that the military would staff the Washington D.C. airbase designated to defend the center of government with weekend warriers and unfueled airplanes parked in hangars. And that's probably why they hastily removed any mention of those units being stationed there from the government website, so folks wouldn't get the mistaken impression that there were actually combat ready fighters there to protect the Capitol ...

Ah jwhop, I think I'm finally beginning to see the humor in this. There really isn't any point in us trying to discuss this, we are just inhabiting totally different realities! But I love you anyway.

Indeed, carry on!

Love,
Greg

Hello Connie!

I'm glad that we both agree on one very important issue: Saddam's Iraq has WMD, even though all those inspectors are not capable of finding that many... They do exist and the world has to deal with that problem!

Thanks for the documentation from ABS news site (btw I watch daily all the major American and British news channels via satellite, so I guess I'm well informed about USA internal politics too)

That document says that NOBODY since the Gulf war, NOBODY was capable of dealing successfully with Iraq's WMO.

"most important was the realization that there is an on going Iraqi program the UN inspections team is highly unlikely to discover and stop"

Well, WMO in Iraq are well hidden, Saddam had built many underground tunnels al over Iraq. So the inspectors would never be able to find WMO. Why would we all want inspectors to continue their job? What job? For how long? Why waste anymore time?

The same document says what if during the bombardments of Iraq US hits one of those hidden stores for chemical warheads, as a result it will kill countless innocent Iraqi people...

I'm asking you Connie, what if Iraq attacks Kuwait with those weapons, countless innocent Kwt and foreign people would be killed.

Would that be easier on everybody conscience in America?? What's the difference?
Suffering is not restricted to one people or another. Would that stop those after - american - bombardment of Iraq terrorist attacks you're all scared off?

Double standards.

The US war against Iraq is not aimed only for a destruction of WMO, I think that the main things is the removal of Saddam from the power, the brain of the whole operation.
I don't see Lybia or Sudan problematic at all at his moment.

The USA, if it removes Saddam, it would save the whole region and many millions of Iraqi people! It would really hurt all those terrorist all over the world connected to Saddam.

Saddam Hussein in his mind cannot accept resignation. He's willing to sacrifice his people to hang on to power.

I wish we could live in the era of international peace, but that's not possible until people like Saddam are still holding power. His regime has to be overthrown.

Can you see any other way except the war? I can't.

I want to mention one huge difference in peace demonstrations, in Western countries and all over Europe people have certain ideas about global, international peace. In Arab and Islamic countries those anti war protest are against America and Western world because they think those are adopting unfair politics when dealing with Palestinian cause.

But that's a completely different subject.

Here in Kuwait we're celebrating National day today, and the Liberation day tomorrow. The atmosphere is tense and stressful, this dangerous situation is affecting everybody.

Have a nice day!
El

Hi Sabra!

Your family story is really very interesting and sad.

I do understand how strong you must feel about the whole subject of Nazi Germany and Hitler. My family too suffered enormously during the second world war in Europe. My uncle was the prisoner of war in Nazi Germany, but somehow he survived it.

The Holocaust of all the Jews murdered in that era has been kept in the forefront, so there is little need to talk anymore about it on this thread or any other forum.

I would add that the only goverment MASS MURDER that the world REMEMBERS is indeed the Nazi genocide of its Jews (6 million).

But there were killings, force labor, starvation, bombings, medical experiments,euthanasia, etc. during Nazi regime of closely 21 MILLION men, women, prisoners of war, political opponents, gipsy people, homosexuals, forced laborers...all different nationalities, among them more than 10 million Eastern Slavs were murdered by Nazis.

The whole subject of genocide is deeply rooted in the history of human kind.

The Soviet genocide after the Bolshevik revolution in 1917, China's art of terror under the communist regime... those slave labor camps were born in communist regime, not in nazi Germany, let's not forget that.

Let's also not forget the Armenian massacre by Turks (1.9 milion). Let's not forget 6 million dead Ukrainian people under Stalin. 2 million dead during the Khmer Rouge Regime in Cambodia, native Indians in America,etc.etc.

I would call those more "hidden genocides" because nobody has discussed them openly and that often as the Holocuast.

Rose is a rose, soul is a soul... said Linda... human is a human, so we should always remember ALL THE PEOPLE WHO SUFFERED THROUGH the history.

Btw , I like your posts, you're always so polite and kind. And very diplomatic.

El

Good Morning Eleonora

I have known for a long time, along with the rest of the world, that Hussein has these weapons. I, along with you and everyone else here, know that Hussein is a threat to Kuwait and Israel, to all his neighbors in the Middle East and to the rest of the world, including the U.S. and Canada. I have also repeated to the point of redundancy that there is not now, nor has their ever been, any doubt in my mind that Hussein has to go. I have said, and even said that in the post above when I spoke about the virtual march on Washington tomorrow, that if war is the only way, then so be it. However, to go against world opinion, to go to war against UN sanction, is not a wise move on the part of the Bush administration. To do that means an end to the UN. I know you would not miss the UN but they have achieved much towards world peace. The UN has done much good for our world. Even our closest allies, the Canadian government, will not back us in an unsanctioned war.

Again we have selective reading of a posted article. Only choosing what supports the position and ignoring everything else. The whole point of that report from the House of Representatives, was that they nixed a war with Iraq in Clinton's administration because they said, in so many words, it was futile. If you read all that article, and I admit it was long, they said Hussein does not have all the weapons in Iraq but that they were located in Sudan, Libya and Algeria. We would have to bomb all those countries also in order to destroy all of Iraq's weapons. They also stated that a war would fuel the flames in the Muslim world and "spark a cataclysmic eruption." Now I will ask you, is that what you want? Do you really want WWlll right in your neighborhood? I am certain that you know what WWlll implies for this planet.

It has been said here, and I agree with it, that Hussein will go out in big style. You can bet he has laid the plans to do that. He knows he will be killed so, just as he set fire to the oil wells at the end of the Gulf War, this time knowing it is his end, he will release all that germ warfare he possesses on the rest of humanity. We will all die with him. Have you considered that? I have. Others have. Even if that doesn't happen we are playing right into the hands of the fanatics by making Hussein a martyr to the Jihad. WWlll! The end of this world and mankind. When all the nuclear toys will be exploded.

Assuming none of what I just stated happens and everything goes according to the way the Bush administration has it worked out in their minds, and according to the way you want it all to end, what about the long range plans? So far the administration has not provided the answers to that question. How many years are our soldiers going to be in Iraq? We have been in South Korea for over 50 years and after all the U.S. did to keep the South Koreans free from the communist north, they are in the streets with signs saying "Yankee go home." Because now they want a united Korea even if it is communist. That is the way it has always been.

Assume we just appoint someone else to govern Iraq. I can predict that as soon as our troops leave the Middle East that person will be assassinated and another fanatic, who may even be worse than Hussein will take his place.

In that article I posted from the House of Representatives it also talked about the retaliatory threat to the U.S. and it's allies after such a war with Iraq. That was kind of prophetic on the part of the Task Force of the House since that report was given in 1998 before the terrorist acts of 9/11 here. Sept. 11, 2001 was their retaliation for the Gulf War. Years in the planning. Even if it takes them years after this war, we can expect that the next retaliation will make 9/11 look like nothing.

You suggested that you sensed fear on our part. I sense fear on your part too. You accuse Americans of all being scared off. You are scared off too. And we all have good reason to fear what this war with Iraq will bring about for our countries and our world. We are not dealing with people who care about anything but their own control, their own power, their own sick, twisted cause. They are capable of anything. You have seen that, we have seen that in this country too. In short, this war will solve nothing. What it will do is unleash the powers of hell on all of us. Now I will ask you, will that ease the conscience of everybody in Kuwait?

I feel as you do, Elenora. I want international peace too. There has never been a war in the history of the world that ever brought about peace. This one certainly isn't going to achieve that in the Middle East or the world. It is only going to ignite the flames that consume us all. I am not afraid of terrorists but I am afraid of the annihilation of mankind.

It is not that I don't care about the people of Kuwait. I do care. I know you have suffered because of Hussein. We all have. The U.S. and it's allies need to change their Middle Eastern policies to make it more equitable. Those people that you mentioned who are in the streets protesting against the U.S. and the West are right, our policy towards Palestine is unfair. Do you care that the Palestinians are suffering too? I do. They are human beings with rights also. There is never going to be peace in the Middle East until we do change our policies towards the Palestinians. Oppression anywhere is unjust. And that would be my answer to your question of seeing another way besides war.

Love, Connie

GREG!!!!!!!!!

I posted a question in part I which I belive you jumped over as Rainbow so kindly noted, you must be so overwhelmed with all the posts so here I go asking my little question which seems completely away from your present conversation...

Last Friday you were talking about jets and all during the 9/11. I just wanted to know when this procedure was put into place?

Rachel, Greg answered in one of his posts to jwhop, I think it was... (Hi Greg Hi jwhop ) ...that the procedure was in place long before 9/11, but that after 9/11 they removed one step from it, so now they call it a "different" procedure. Under the pre-9/11 procedure, the FAA had to phone the military (NORAD, whose headquarters is located out here, inside Cheyenne Mountain, BTW). Post-9/11, that phone call is no longer needed and NORAD is to respond "automatically," if I'm remembering correctly what Greg posted.

Connie, Your last post here expresses so well the very things that weigh on my mind about the war preparations. We are not going to be able to count on much trust in the world at large for our American Ways if we take a "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead" approach. Besides the insulting disregard for international differences in opinion, who says we're going to find the weapons Sadam has by going to war with him? We couldn't find Bin Laden when we went to war for that express purpose. The U.N. inspectors can't find Iraq's weapons with whatever information the American government has given them. What if we bomb the hell out of the place and those weapons of mass distruction get used by Iraq on whomever and/or remain "lost" and after the war still remain available to terrorists...more of whom will have likely been created by resentment about the U.S. military action...

It boggles the mind.

Maria

Can anyone bring any suggestion how to get rid of saddam... now he wants to have a debate with bush. He's a clever s.o.b isn't he. Sorry for the language.

how does one deal with such individuals as Saddam, Osama and the likes unless by force.

You know since 9/11, even with the speaches bush has given concerning the axis of evil, even after initial reactions toward muslims in america, there are always those who rise up and remind the people that hatred is not the answer.

I don't believe, in this time and age, with all that we have seen in past experiences of war, with all the information that we have. I can no longer believe that any gov'nt could so easily fool or control entirely the mass. maybe Hilter did. but we live in different times.

Resistance is much stronger today in america then the resistance that emerged in ww2 as well as ww1 which we often forget the atrocities that took place then too.

Just look at the world's reaction toward war, have you ever seen such a world wide turn out?

Maybe there is a conscious or subconcious knowing that (even if we would love to see saddam gone) this war is going to bring a lot of agony.

But you know, Bush will go to war, 95% sure, it will be swift as it was in afganistan and he will be re elected for his success.

well that other 5%, a miracle. With the world we live in, you never know. Saddam and Bush in a debate... go figure

Thanks Maria!

Hello moomflower

I would imagine there is a lot of activity at Selfridge considering they may have been activated. I have no experience with your ANG. My service commitment ended in the CA National Guard. On any given day there may have been a few active military personnel around. One weekend a month, the place was packed. And weekend warriors in times of peace isn't a myth at all, at least on one particular weekend a month. Further, the entire purpose of Guard units with all branches of the services is to maintain a trained reserve of military personnel to call upon in times of emergency. In the absence of an emergency, those persons in the reserve go about their lives and business, except for training on one weekend a month and 2 weeks of training a year. My two weeks of training a year was conducted at "Camp Hell" in the CA desert.

The F-16 has an initial climb rate of 50,000 feet per minute so, if one was launched down the runway, it could reach 29,000 ft in less than a minute. But you are misconstruing what I said. They aren't sitting on the runway, with the pilots strapped in and cleared for takeoff when the SCRAMBLE signal is given. Some of the pilots are in the chow line or in the bathroom, crews could be anywhere in a designated area including the chow line or bathroom (head) too. If you noticed, it took 6 minutes from the time those F-15's were scrambled from Otis AFB at 8:46am till they took off at 8:52am.

Oh, I don't think you're attacking me moonflower and you shouldn't think I'm attacking you either. But I don't remember David Shippers telling the White House anything. He attempted to contact Attorney General Ashcroft, who is the Attorney General with offices in the Justice Dept. and was more or less told to go through channels. Further, just because there was an entrenched bureaucracy at the CIA and FBI who had their own ideas about what is important doesn't mean there's a conspiracy to overthrow the United States Constitution. The whole purpose of the Homeland Security Dept. is to break these closely held bureaucracies up into cooperating entities. But I did NOT say he didn't attempt to warn the government about possible attacks, NOR did I say he lied---about anything.

So, we can agree that Shippers is a man of principle who did his best to be of service to his country. Why don't you believe him when he says Saddam Hussein has already attacked the United States on our own homeland at least 3 separate times and killed American Citizens, here? If Saddam has done that as Shippers asserts then Saddam has already committed acts of war and declared war on the United States. Why shouldn't we go after him? The fact these agents of Iraq weren't in military uniforms is irrelevant.

Not to be argumentative with you moonflower. If you believe Shippers about his contact with the people in our government, why are you ignoring the rest of what he said? Why shouldn't I say you are picking and choosing only those facts convenient to your antiwar position?

Axiom: The first casualty of war is "truth." All wars, everywhere.

It isn't my intention to attack you and I hope you will keep that in mind. When you characterized the President as a "madman", were you judging his character, judging his motives or practicing psychiatry without a license?
Why would you attempt to judge either of those things since as you say, only God knows?

Love,
jwhop

Selfridge has been that active ever since I was a kid, jwhop. I have a late doctors appt. but will get back with a reply to you later. I would also like to reply to you Rachael.

Love, Connie

Hi Sabra....

I only just started reading PART II...and so far, got as far as your second post...*sigh*....

Sabra, I'm sorry if you thought I was angry...please know that I WAS NOT...and AM NOT! ! ! *sigh* At the time, I thought you had forgotten or did not even realize what the Native Ameicans suffered at the hands of the US Gov't, I was merely pointing out to you, that it DID happen here....but not with anger toward you...and not even anger at what happened in the past...that is water over the dam...but that's not to say that I don't feel sorrow for what my ancestors experienced...*sigh*...

...and Sabra, I want you to know too, that I am so very sorry for the suffering your family had to endure, merely by being Jewish...

...please accept my apologies if I made you feel I was angry with you..'tis not so...

Now I've got a lot of reading to do...cuz I see another big thread in the making, here...*sigh*...

Luv,
Rainbow

Greg....thanks for pointing out how Hitler happened to "pick out the Jews" as targets for his revolutionary upheavel...*sigh*..

Hi Rainbow ,

I am not at all thinking that you are angry with me. Why should I? No apologies needed . I was just trying to make a point with Greg and then answer Terri. By the way, I would like to hear more about the "Trail of Tears" and on Tecumseh. Perhaps on another thread or in the newsletter. I think it is very important that that story is told and retold so we never forget. I also would like to hear it from your perspective.

Sabra

Sabra -
I just wanted to quickly say that I read your heatfelt and eye-opening response to my question - I just haven't had time yet this week to give it a "proper" reply - but I'll get there soon! Same with anyone / anything else I've missed here...

Love,
Terri

PS - Rainbow / Connie - Did either of you see the "Survival of the Spirit" piece that Chahles wrote for our February issue of Metamorphosis, about his experience with 9-11? If either of you (or both of you together?) would like to do something about natives, espeically your personal ancestors, I think that would be wonderful! And Sabra - when I read your family's story here, I thought the same thing, if you would like to re-work that for the newsletter please feel free. No, feel encouraged! Just let me know, so I can figure out which issues to get all these submissions that you are all going to make scheduled in

Eleonora,

I do appreciate your nice comments you made (along with everybody else's) regarding my family story.

But I do not appreciate when you said the following because I think there is no justification for you to say this:

In reply to:

---

The Holocaust of all the Jews murdered in that era has been kept in the forefront, so there is little need to talk anymore about it on this thread or any other forum.

---

The discussion began when Greg was making an analogy with the rise in power of the Nazi's. Sorry, but to me as I said in part 1, Nazism and the Holocaust goes hand in hand even if the analogy wasn't about the genocide. If somebody talks about the Nazi's then I have every right to talk about the Holocaust. If the comparison weren't made I would not have brought up the topic.

There are posts in this thread and the rest of the forum that are not at all germane to the topic. I rarely talk about the Holocaust and usually it is only if somebody else brings that topic up. But I think that what I brought up is related to this discussion. I also never try to overshadow any other atrocity. But I would think it would be awkward to list all the other atrocities every time I mention Holocaust especially since the allusion was to Hitler. I also never said or implied that the Jews were the only ones murdered.

Also, Terri ask me in this thread why I was taking this discussion personally. How would I have explained why I took it personally without bringing up the Holocaust? I explained by sharing a small and private short story about my personal life. When Rainbow talks about the Native Americans would you also say there is little need to talk anymore about it on this thread or any other forum. I hope not because I for one would like to have Rainbow talk more about it. As someone said on this thread previously, we come from different parts of the world and all of us bring different experiences and various perspectives.

I could have talked about my story here on this site many times, but I didn't not only because nobody asked me but also I don't like pushing religion or the Holocaust onto others. If Terri wouldn't have asked me that question I would have remained silent. Also from the very nice comments other members made here regarding what I told, it seems there was a genuine interest.

So, please don't tell me "so there is little need to talk anymore about it on this thread or any other forum". I do find that insulting and it is statements like that makes the Jewish population talk about the Holocaust all the more including myself. I don't think I have offended anybody with my story and if you (or anybody else) find it offensive, please let me know why.

As long as someone here makes a reference to the Nazi's, Hitler or anything associated with that regime or ask me a question regarding the Holocaust I will talk about it as much as I want to whether in this thread or any other forum. I will not remain silent, which is essentially what you are telling me to do when it comes to talking about the Holocaust in that statement of yours.

I wished my parents spoke more about it to me before they passed away since they rarely spoke about the Holocaust. That story I wrote was told to me only recently several years after they died.

I will only stop talking about it when others in this world of ours stop saying the Holocaust never happened and when I can be assured that other genocides of any kind will never again happen, ever.

Sabra

Greg

Please don't try making me responsible for the sloppy journalism practiced in the aftermath of 9/11. Of course I don't think planes disappear from radar when they turn off the transponder. They do however disappear from the air traffic control screens which are receivers for the signal they transmit. I merely posted as closely as possible verbatim what they reported. That's why I try to get my news from more reliable sources and turn on my truth filter whenever I'm reading the Times or watching the network news, especially CNN, which isn't often. I mean, take these reporters, PLEASE!

I don't think I gave the impression that Air National Guard units were assigned intercept duties to respond when NORAD orders fighters to scramble. I believe someone else mentioned that Air National Guard units were in the area and I responded that they probably weren't ready to fly and their pilots were elsewhere.

By the way, you're beginning to expand your conspiracy theory to lots of people who would be asking lots of questions and talking to the press if they had been ordered to stand down while the WTC and the Pentagon were being attacked. People like those fighter pilots assigned to protect the Capitol, their commanders and the air traffic controllers in 3 major cities who are not military personnel, just for starters. Unless, you think they are part of the conspiracy too.

Well, I'm glad you see the humor and happy to have given you a good chuckle then

jwhop

Hi jwhop

I don't feel that you are attacking me either. Thank you for answering my question regarding your experience. Regarding the ANG I don't know if all ANG bases are different but I know that as long I have lived in this area of Michigan, which has been since I was 3 years old, Selfridge has always been an active base. It may be training exercises as you stated. But the base is always manned. Planes are always there. Comforting to know that at least Michigan is protected from a hostile attack even if Washington D.C. isn't. Incidentally, the two F-16 fighter jets that were the closet to Flight 93 and ordered to go after that plane on 9/11 were performing maneuvers near Detroit. So I know we were protected that day if not the Pentagon. You can find that information at the ABC News site. Yes, there has been more activity at Selfridge lately. When it comes to fighter jets and scrambling I admittedly am out of my field of knowledge. However, what you stated about the guys being in the "head" or chow line I certainly hope does not apply to 9/11 or any national emergency. I would hope they could get in the air a lot faster to defend their country. That they didn't respond faster than they did lessens my confidence in our air force's ability to defend this country in case of attack. That is assuming it was just inaptitude on their part. As I told you before, I am not saying there was a conspiracy. A massive cover-up, yes. It would not be the first time our government has covered things up either. Watergate was a biggie in that area.

Regarding David Schippers and your comments. What I said was he tried to notify the White House and was ignored. So did two or three FBI agents. No you did not say he lied, so the way I worded that was not correct. My apologies. What I meant was it seemed as if you thought he was not being truthful about that which may have just been my perception. That is what I meant when I talked about how easy it is to misunderstand the written word.

Now as for what you said about me not believing Schippers when he talks of Hussein's attacks on America, and his weapons, which he also discussed. I never said I thought he was lying about that. I did not ignore that part of what he said. I have said it on this thread over and over and over again that I KNOW Hussein is a terrorist, I know he has a large stockpile of weapons, I know he is ruthless and everything else said about him. Some of you seem to assume that those of us who are against war, particularly this war, think Hussein is a nice guy, just misunderstood. Greg has stressed it, I have stressed it, it's not an either/or matter. It is not a matter of if you are not with us you are against us, or you are either on Bush's side or Hussein's side. That I said Bush was a madman, yes I did say that. Anyone who is willing to flirt with WWlll, who is determined to fight this war against the opinion of most of the allied nations, the UN and a vast number of world citizens, who is willing to take our rights under the Constitution away from us in order to wage his war, well... madman may be a strong term so I will just say something is not right there. He has also, managed to re-divide Europe. His dad's desire when he was in office was to have a free and united Europe. Oops, Jr. blew that one. The Clinton administration worked at that goal. Also if you read that report from the House of Representatives Task Force, GW is going against everything it states regarding the futility of a war with Iraq. Why? Because he has a good guy/bad guy mentality. Himself as the good guy of course. No grey areas at all there. Black and white world view. So, Rachel that Bush uses terms like "axis of evil" in his speeches it is because of his world view.

Jwhop, you can say I was picking and choosing only the facts that support my anti-war stance but you only have to look back through the posts and what I have said to know better than that. I can't form an opinion of any value or use if I only look at one side of the story. Every story has two sides.

As for my world view and my anti-war stance, I have lived long enough to know that wars don't solve a thing. And in response to what Rachel said about "hatred not being the answer" I would have to say that no, it isn't the answer. Love is the answer. If we had more love in the world there would be no need of war. Hatred is negative energy. As for things being "different" now than in Hitler's time, they aren't. They haven't been different all through history. You can lose your freedom in a blink of an eye if you don't guard it. The Constitution is the only protection we have in this country against the tyrants that are always waiting to take our freedom away from us. For any of our elected officials to tamper with the Constitution is paving the way for a future dictator and the loss of our freedom.

Love, Connie

P.S. I really tried to keep this one shorter, Ginny

Sabra

I just wanted to say that talking about the holocaust and keeping it in the forefront of the world's mind is the only way of preventing it from ever happening again. Never stop talking about it.

I don't know if any of you noticed or not but right here, in this thread in part 1 on page 2 near the bottom, someone came in and made a very racist remark to Rainbow about her "Indians" which also offended both Terri and myself who are part Native American. So that's why we need to keep talking about it, Sabra.

Love, Connie

Connie,

Thanks for what you said about why we need to keep talking about it. "Never Again!"

In these long threads I somehow missed that deplorable comment. That is a very racist and hurtful comment indeed made to Ginny about the Native Americans. Although I am not at all Native American, I do find that offensive as well.

I hope I can speak for others here when I say those kind of comments are non-productive and not at all welcome here for all it does is just perpetuates the hatred.

Sabra

Hey Sabra, for what it's worth I didn't get the sense that Eleonora was really telling anybody to stop talking about the holocaust, even though I see her wording looks like that. I thought she was glad that you've posted what you have, and was really just saying "yes, and here are some other atrocities that we should all be aware of that some may not be, because they are not talked about publicly as much as the holocaust."

But she can speak for herself when she gets back!

Oh good, jwhop!

In reply to:

---

Of course I don't think planes disappear from radar when they turn off the transponder. They do however disappear from the air traffic control screens which are receivers for the signal they transmit.

---

Yes, for sure. I was just pointing out that it doesn't hold water to say that any part of the delay in responding to flight 77 would really be that they disappeared from radar. If NORAD wasn't tracking them continuously on radar, then we've sure been misinformed about NORAD's capabilities!

Yeah, a little chuckle is great for the spirit, ain't it!

In reply to:

---

By the way, you're beginning to expand your conspiracy theory to lots of people who would be asking lots of questions and talking to the press if they had been ordered to stand down while the WTC and the Pentagon were being attacked. People like those fighter pilots assigned to protect the Capitol, their commanders and the air traffic controllers in 3 major cities who are not military personnel, just for starters. Unless, you think they are part of the conspiracy too.

---

Not at all . Actually I do think there are probably folks in the FAA and the fighter commands who are asking questions that we are not hearing about, that may well surface over time. But I'm certainly not postulating a conspiracy that extends to that level! Although we may never ferret out the full truth of what happened from the maze of confusion and disinformation, my own thought about the most likely scenario is the one I mentioned before: that the FAA and fighter commands probably did exactly what they were supposed to do. The final item on the checklist to actually get planes in the air is confirmation for the scramble from the NMCC, which like every other part of the process is normally given as a matter of routine procedure. However, if the President, or the Chirman of the Joint Chiefs or the Commander of NORAD were to personally get involved in the process and say "hang on, don't scramble just yet, this is a critical situation and we're conferring with the President about it," or something like that, then the planes wouldn't leave the ground ... good soldiers don't second-guess the orders of their superior officers! And for those who were puzzled about it after the fact, I think that a firm reminder that there are important "national security" considerations that are outside of their "need to know" ... and that they are legally bound by security oaths not to discuss classified military operations ... that would be quite enough for most (both for duty & honor and the preservation of their own hides!) No broad conspiracy required.

FWIW, I do believe Schippers' story about Iraqi involvement in the Oklahoma bombing. And if you do too, you're a lot closer to believing in FBI/CIA conspiracies than you're letting on!

Love,
Greg

Hi Everyone,

I came across this article at ABC News earlier this evening. I found it interesting and thought I would post it here for you to read. It's a CIA psychological profile of Saddam Hussein. As they say " Know your enemy."

Feb. 25 Saddam Hussein may be a dangerous and brutal dictator, but don't make the mistake of thinking he's insane.

That's the assessment of Jerrold Post, a former CIA profiler who has developed a psychological portrait of the Iraqi leader by extensively studying his biographies, his speeches, his record of policy decisions, and interviews with people who have met him.
"This is not a madman. Let me be clear," Post said. "This is a psychologically whole person in terms of not being insane, but he represents the most dangerous political personality type, what's called malignant narcissism."

Post, who pioneered the CIA's use of the controversial discipline known as political psychology, believes Saddam's actions are guided by rational calculation which is potentially predictable rather than arbitrary whims.

"He is not crazy. He is quite understandable. And in order to deter a leader, to work in crises against a leader, you have to have a nuanced understanding of what makes him tick."

In the 1960s, Post started a pilot project inside the CIA for developing personality profiles of world leaders. During two decades with the government, he studied the leading international figures of the day, though he cannot talk publicly about the profiles.

He can, though, talk about his profile of Saddam, which he developed after he left the government.

Profile: Born to a Depressed Mother

Post believes the roots of Saddam's personality lie in his childhood as far back as his birth. "One cannot imagine a worse entrance into this life than Saddam had," he said.

Both Saddam's father and his eldest brother died while his mother was pregnant with him. Citing an account given by the family's neighbors, Post said she became "gravely depressed" and repeatedly tried to commit suicide and to abort the pregnancy. When Saddam was born, she did not even want to look at him, Post said.

The infant Saddam spent the first three years of his life in the care of a loving uncle, but was then returned to his mother, who had remarried. Her new husband was a distant cousin.


Difficult Childhood Leads to Wounded Self

According to Post, Saddam's new stepfather was psychologically and physically abusive to him, producing in the boy what Post calls "the wounded self" a fragile personality who is very sensitive to perceived slights.

"He's really very fragile under this arrogant facade. One of the important implications of this which is felt very painfully by his subordinates is how sensitive he is to slight. He cannot accept criticism of any kind," Post said.

"He is so consumed by compensatory self-adoration, messianic ambitions, grandiose self-concept," Post said, "that he has no capacity for caring for his own people. No capacity for the pain, the suffering of others."

Post believes Saddam's childhood and his treatment by his stepfather left him with a ruthless determination: "Never again will I yield to superior force."

"One way I think he has compensated for the violence done to him when he was so helpless was to be the perpetrator of violence to others," said Post. "He's used violence and a total readiness to do whatever to anybody as his way of controlling his environment."

Visions of Greatness

At the age of 8, according to Post, Saddam ran away from his mother and stepfather and returned to his uncle, who gave him an education and told him he was destined to be a great Arab leader.

Saddam took that to heart, Post said. "He sees himself as having this heroic role to play on the world stage, and that has haunted him over the years, because while he saw that, he never got that recognition in the world until the Gulf crisis of 1991."

That was the year that Saddam's forces defied the U.S.-led international coalition by refusing to withdraw his troops from neighboring Kuwait, leading to the Gulf War.

Profile Suggests Possible Fight to the Death

The important lesson for the future, Post said, is that Saddam will if he feels his cause is lost try to take down as much of the world with him as he can. In 1991 that meant setting the Kuwaiti oil fields on fire as he was forced to abandon them. But if there is another war and Saddam believes he is doomed, Post believes he might use weapons of mass destruction as his swan song.

Post doubts Saddam would consider giving up his rule and going into exile. "It is only power that drives this man and life without power is not life," he said.

But he does believe that Saddam might knowingly enter a war he knew would end in his own demise.

"He's not a martyr. He's very prudent. He doesn't want to have conflict. But when he has his back to the wall, that's when he can be very dangerous and lash out," he said.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/nightline/World/saddam_profiler_030225.html

Love, Connie

Connie..........thank you for sharing that profile...pretty eye opening....

..does anyone here know his chart? Or at least his Sun Sign? Just curious....

Luv,
Rainbow

Ps..Connie...Actually, I was surprised at that comment about Indians at the end of the first thread....but I'm sure people who feel that way, are far and few between... I hope so, anyway...

Hey Eleonora, I strongly share your perspective that

In reply to:

---

I respect all people, all over the world who marched in the cities of their countries to demonstrate against the American prospective war on Iraq.

Not that I would join any of those demonstrations myself, but those demonstrations are sending a strong message to American goverment that NO COUNTRY will be allowed to control the world politics unilaterally. That's a good thing, isn't it?

---

Yes! That IS a good thing. As you are saying here and others have said many times, anti-war protests are NOT, in general, supportive of Saddam. Certainly in the Arab world those who are vehemently opposed to a US attack on Iraq have more reason to hate and fear Saddam than we do in America, because in he is a much more real and immediate threat his physical neighbors. But despite that, they are even more afraid of unilateral US domination of the middle east (and ultimately the whole world).

Believe me, if I thought for one moment that invading Iraq and ousting Saddam would mean bringing American-style freedom, human rights, and government by the people to Iraq, I would be ALL FOR IT, despite the cost in bloodshed: there are things worth fighting and dying for. But I don't believe that for a moment, and neither does most of the rest of the world. What the American public has been only marginally aware of, and in many cases completely UNaware of, is the staggeringly large and ever-expanding role of the CIA (and its military/industrial complex supporters) in political and military operations aimed not at spreading democracy, but on securing "national interests" of this country. You cannot blame folks for this concern, this shadow side of the US has for decades openly armed and supported many dictatorships, with the pragmatic justification that those dictators "supported US interests" and that sometimes the compromises of practical foreign policy are just not pretty. Among the brutal and sometimes genocidal regimes that have been armed, propped up, and sometimes BROUGHT TO POWER by mostly-clandestine US CIA support have been the Shah of Iran, Marcos in the Philippines, Noriega in Panama, Chile's Pinochet and Indonesia's Suharto ... and that's a far from complete list.

Not a record to inspire confidence that we're just out to help, and not dominate. Especially when Bush's publicly stated intention is to install an "interim" military government to rule Iraq until a stable "coalition" government of the various vying factions can be crafted. Nowhere, to my knowledge, has anything been said about holding free elections to let the Iraqi people choose their own leadership.

Most of the world is afraid of unilateral US domination for exactly the same reason that I and a lot of other Americans are afraid of unilateral domination of our OWN country by the executive branch of government (aka the CIA/corporate/military/industrial clique) through war powers and civil liberties suspensions: the long and the short of it is that as you said NO COUNTRY - and even more so no powerful clique within any country - can be given unilateral power over everyone else ... regardless of what their intentions might or might not be.

Basically, if Bush wanted to gain MY support for the Iraqi invasion (which I'm sure he's concerned about ) ... and probably the near-unanimous support of the rest of the world ... all he would have to do is to say in some binding way, "hey, once we liberate Iraq from the tyranny of Hussein and destroy all his weapons of mass destruction, we will NOT retain any control over Iraqi oil, and we WILL sponsor immediate free elections of the Iraqui people. We will then provide ample foreign aid to help ease the recovery of the Iraqi people, and we will provide defensive military support for the new democracy IF AND ONLY IF they request it to protect them from conquest by powerful neighbors who might seek to take advantage of the power vacuum left by Hussein's absence, and otherwise we will leave them to their own self-determination with our blessings and goodwill." Would I support the immediate ouster of Saddam unter THOSE terms? You bet I would! But nothing of the kind has been said or remotely implied, and my guess is that it never will be. For THAT reason I fiercely oppose the peremtory unilateral attack on Iraq by a leadership clearly bent on controlling the region (including its oil and strategic position) and imposing its own will regardless of what anybody else thinks or wants. We need to begin cooperative dialog with the world community about how to deprive Saddam and other dictators of power WITHOUT imposing unilateral domination by the world's only super-power in its place.

IMHO.

Love,
Greg

Hello Sabra,

you've completely misunderstood my comments about Holocaust, I never said that those terrible things from the past should be forgotten...

Where have you read that? I just said that most of the people know lot about Holocaust (books, movies, history lessons), much more than about other genocides throughout the history of human kind.

We should not make one genocide appear more important than the other, because at the end human being is a human being, Jew or African, Armenian or Iraqi...

El

Greg,

Yes! A democratic government in Iraq and government aid to help the people of Iraq restore their country would make me very much in favor of this war too. I object to the way the Bush administration has that John Wayne or Dirty Harry type of manner in dealing with the terrorists. It really puts them on the same level and only reaffirms to the Arabic people that the U.S. wants a unilateral reign over the Middle East. Also it would be wonderful if the U.S., along with our allies would change their Middle East policies to make it more just and equitable for all the Arab nations and Israel. All that you cited about the CIA is very true and it is no wonder the U.S. is hated so much by the Arabic people. Not to mention in most other countries of the world. It is not going to change though because we have the son of the CIA in office now. ( sorry jwhop, but I at least toned it down some )

All Americans were angry after 9/11. I think on that day and for a time afterwards we all wanted to go kick some butt. Sorry, it is the only way I could think of describing the feeling. Then you have to think about it and ask yourself what caused that? What went through my mind that day was this is the result of thousands of years of hatred and the need for revenge. Hate is destructive. Love and forgiveness is productive. Then I thought of all the ways we, in our own lives, were guilty of the same thing in the way we treat each other by not forgiving and needing to get revenge for our hurts or our ego.

Just wanted to let you know, on the terms you stated, I would be in favor of this war also, because Hussein is a tyrant and a menace to the world and we all know he has to go.

All of us aging hippies need a tie dyed T-Shirt so I put one on here.

P.S. Rainbow, that shocked me too when I saw that post. That comes from not letting go of hate. If we don't let go of hate and anger it is going to come out somehow. Mostly in an act of revenge.

Love, Connie

"I will only stop talking about it when others in the world of ours stop saying that the holocost never happened"

This statement has encouraged me to speak up on an issue that is very difficult for me. "the armenian genocide"

I am armenian, first generation canadian, my family is scattered between Canada, Egypt, Syria, Israel, France and Brazil. Armenian Diaspora. I am having difficulty telling my family's story, I don't want to go into the details which my grandmother told me before she passed on to the other side... but here is a brief idea of my story: grandma was only a child when her parents were tortured and killed in their own home during ww1 by the turkish army, she witnessed it as she was hiding where she was told to hide, and remained there many days to come, hungry, shaken and scared. She eventually escaped and was found by another family that took her in and together escaped the war zone by foot, villages were burned, churches destroyed, children thrown in the sea to drawn ...... I can't even begin to tell my grandfather's side, except that him and his brothers and sisters separated, some ended in Egypt, others in Iran, others as far as Brazil ...... grandma ended up in Syria, then moved to Israel, to then settle finally in Egypt. When Nasser came into power and started his nationalisation campagne, once again, they became targets of discrimination. WHY? because they were Christian. My mother's father had a business which was taken from him, shut down and caused him great stress which resulted in a sudden heart attack. I never knew him. My mother was only 14 when she saw him fall. Her mother, my other grandmother, took the four kids and moved to Canada alone, leaving all she had worked for behind. My father's mother, followed her son, my dad, to Canada along with grandpa. And it was in this land of the free that my parents met, grandma and grandpa lived with us and told us many stories from world war1 and the attrocities commited then.


And I have also decided to speak up (even though it is hard) and not stop talking...

"as long as people in this world of ours stop saying that the Armenian Genocide never happened.


http://www.armenian-genocide.org/genocidefaq.htm#What


http://www.armenian-genocide.org/

Hi Rachel,

It does feel strange to share those sensitive family histories, doesn't it? I had heard about the Armenian genocide on National Public Radio in some depth. But you're the first person I know whose family survived that onslaught, and I appreciate hearing about it from you. What's striking is how frequently humans have perpetuated these horrible brutalities on one another through the kind of ethnic scapegoating that is cynically used by tyrants and/or out of the desire of one group to take from another. The invading Japanese committed atrocities and war crimes against the Chinese in WWII as well, including the kind of unconscionable medical experiments the Nazis were conducting in the European death camps.

This is the "sin" we, as human beings, inherit at birth, isn't it? This horrible, bloody, brutal history is the legacy passed to us. "Here, kid, here's the world reality we humans as a group have created for you so far. How do you like it?"

I can't remember what I was going to say...other than Thank God for Peacemakers whenever and wherever and however they appear.

Love,
Maria

Hello moonflower

I understand you have lived near the Selfridge military base since you were 3 and can appreciate that you have seen day and night activity there. I can appreciate what you say in light of the fact that Selfridge is more than an Air National Guard base, which you didn't mention. Not that I'm attacking you for not mentioning that but Selfridge serves all five of our armed services, there are 50,000 people on that base according to their website.
http://www.selfridge.army.mil/

It's amusing that you think Air Force pilots and crews shouldn't eat or go to the bathroom while on duty. Perhaps you should post that "suggestion" on the "Stars and Strips" website with your email address and stand by for action.

I agree with you about government cover-ups. Bill Clinton moved heaven and earth to cover-up the true nature and identity of the attackers of the Oklahoma City federal building. He tried hard to blame it on patriot groups as a prelude to more gun control. He even tried to blame it on talk show host Rush Limbaugh to shut him up. We can thank Shippers for finally blowing the lid off that cover-up.

Nothing personal moonflower but you keep missing or ignoring the essential element in the Shippers interview. It isn't that Hussein is a terrorist, a fact you readily agree with. It isn't that Hussein has attacked the United States. It's that Hussein, who IS the government of Iraq, has already attacked the Continental United States---3 times, which is an Act of War. Whenever I think I see inconsistencies in someone's position, I probe but it's not a personal attack. You seem to consider Shippers a credible source for information and freely quote his conclusions. Shippers says there are 3500-5000 Iraqi Republican Guards in America and that they are communicating with a certain phone number in Iraq. He further states they are up to something in the Oklahoma City area, have set up fake/dummy businesses that do no business, to give themselves cover. In short moonflower, Shippers thinks they are involved in a plan for another attack---here. Leaving aside the million or so Iraqi citizens Hussein has tortured and murdered, the Iranian troops Hussein used chemical weapons against and killed, the Kurds he gassed with chemical weapons and killed, not to mention the Kuwaiti's he killed when he invaded Kuwait, how many American civilian lives are you willing to sacrifice on the alter of saving Saddam Hussein's sorry butt? Because that's the bottom line and the final result if your antiwar policy is put into effect. Your position seems to be that it's OK for Saddam to kill his own citizens or any other citizens including American citizens here but you're against removing him because some innocent Iraqi citizens would be killed?? As I said moonflower, this is not an attack, it's a request for clarification of your antiwar position and it's limits. So, speaking of limits to your antiwar position, is there any attack of any nature on the United States that in your opinion would justify a military response?

I haven't taken a vow of poverty, so I'll have to answer the rest of your post later.

Love, jwhop

Rachel, thank you so much for posting your family's story of the horrors they endured through the Armenian holocaust. Your story, Sabra's and Rainbows are ALL worth retelling and keeping vividly in public awareness to remind us of the extent of man's inhumanity to man when political systems are allowed to operate from a premise of power and domination rather than cooperation and love. Clearly this is a paradigm of human interaction that we desperately need to change if we are to have any hope of a just and sustainable civilization. Why can we not realize ... not as "countries" or "races" or "ethnic groups" but as citizens of the world, that NO human beings have the right to dominate and control other human beings. NONE of us, EVER, for ANY reason. Unless we can get that idea out of our minds completely, I see little good in store for humanity.

Connie I haven't said much about your recent posts because I haven't found anything to take issue with! I love the way you are thinking about these things and the contributions you're making to the discussions. (And thanks for the tie-dye!)

jwhop you make some very good points about the coverups during the Clinton administration. Although I know there are a lot of Clinton fans around who will be unhappy to hear me say so, I don't think the Clinton administration was one whit friendlier to civil rights than the Bush administration is, or that Janet Reno was any less a Federal tyrant than is Ashcroft ... that administration just didn't have the scope for raw usurpation that this one has by virtue of the "terrorist" crisis!

You have only to look at the steamroller tactics that Reno employed on MANY occasions when she directed her Federal thugs to roll over both private individuals and organizations AND states' rights and laws as if the Constitution had never been written! Not only the Oklahoma bombing (about which massive evidence going far beyond just Schippers' testimony shows deliberate government complicity and coverup), but also the mass murder by Federal agents in their seige of the Branch Davidian compound and numerous other incidents, point to a Justice Department no less committed to siezing raw Federal power than is Ashcroft's. And who will forget the image of Federal Agents busting into an apartment with body armor and machine guns to deport the small and frightened Cuban refugee boy whose mother had died to bring him to freedom in the US ... in total disregard of the State judicial reviews which had clear jurisdiction in the case?

As I've said before, the coercive regime attempting to subvert the Constitution and change the American form of government to one of iron-fisted Federal control has nothing to do with republicans or democrats. For many administrations now, regardless of WHO occupies the nonminal positions of power, the coercive behind-the-scenes agenda has been primarily controlled by the same "establishment" of CIA and other intelligence bureaucrats in league with powerful corporate/military/industrial vested interests. The rhetoric is different, but in real terms you might as well rename both republicans and democrats "republicrats" for all the difference in their respect for the constitution and their honesty and integrity to the citizenry.

What puzzles me about you, though, jwhop, is that you seem to have a blind spot where party politics are concerned. As Connie's asked about several times in connection to Schippers' testimony especially, it appears that you easily see corruption, coverups and abuse of power where Democrats are concerned, but vehemently defend equally obvious and onerous coverups and abuse of power if it is Republicans! To me, that is blind partisanship carried to totally ridiculous extremes. I don't mean this as an insult, I'm honestly trying to understand where you're coming from that Party politics seems to be the be-all, end-all factor in your view of world and domestic affairs. It appears that your position is as simplistic and naive as "Republicans, good - Democrats, bad," end of story! Yet I know you are far more intelligent and perceptive than to believe anything so patently superficial and inaccurate. My observation, over a period of many months that we've discussed these issues, is that you are completely unable or unwilling to see any of these issues in any light other than Rebublicans versus Democrats, and that really puzzles me.

There is good and bad in both parties ... folks of integrity and scoundrels who are Democrats and who are Republicans. But this relentless drive toward expansion and consolidation of Federal executive power has been a consistent theme that has found expression through BOTH parties for a long time now. We're only talking about the actions of the Republican administration now because it happens to BE a Republican adminsitration in power at this coming-to-a-head stage of affairs. But if a Democrat were in office now instead of our dear Bush regime, things would be little different IMHO ... except for a bit of a different spin in terms of rhetoric and style. It's not the current political figurehead who is behind this, but an entrenched core of powerful interests that do NOT change from administration to administration. It's really frustrating when you so often respond to any of these issues by unfavorably comparing Clinton to Bush, or Democrats to Republicans. From where I sit, that misses the issues entirely, and only confuses the discussion by sidetracking it to party politics when that's not what it's about at all. When someone points to a Bush administration corruption or coverup, you answer by pointing to a Clinton administration corruption or coverup, as if partisan comparisons where the important thing here ... when they're acually the ;east important thing. The important thing is the seizure of power and domination, on both a domestic and a world scale, by a clique of powerfully entrenched interests. Does that make ANY sense to you, or is it all about political parties?

I'm really curious.

Love,
Greg

Hi jwhop and all,

There is a lot to digest here tonight. Rachel, Both Maria and Greg have pretty much expressed how I feel about the things that happened to your family. I'm glad you talked about it for the reason that both you and Sabra stated, so that it never, never happens again. Also, as you both said , so no one can say it didn't happen. There are still people in this country who hold the opinion that every battle won for the white man was a victory, while every battle won by the Native Americans was a massacre. Native Americans were more than just herded onto reservations, they were also slaughtered at will. Native Americans were fighting to keep their way of life instead of having someone else's idea of how they should live be forced on them. As El pointed out, there is hardly any nationality or race that has not suffered at the hands of tyrants. That's why we have to be ever watchful and protect the Constitution. It's our guarantee of freedom from tyranny.

Jwhop, they can go to the bathroom but they have to raise their hand and ask for permission. Thanks for the laugh. Actually, I was assuming they didn't all have to go at once. As for chow, if there is a national emergency in progress, they will have to grab something and eat it on the run.

Being a non-military woman, I just assumed that all National Guard Bases were like Selfridge. So I claim ignorance as my defense. I didn't withhold that information from you on purpose. Guess that explains that weird plane my husband and I saw flying over in front of our car three weeks ago. It was low because it was landing at Selfridge and we had never seen one like it before. It looked like it could have been a Stealth but my husband was not sure because he never saw a Stealth up close. Normally around here we just see the regular jets and cargo planes.

I just read Greg's post about the party lines so will state my case on that. I hate labels like liberal or conservative but if I have to give myself a label I guess I am what they call a Moderate. I am the person in the middle keeping the liberals and conservatives in line, or at least from killing each other. I am an Independent voter, I vote for the man and his record and not the party. I just wish I had more of a choice rather than the best of two evils as it is now. I agree with Greg, when it comes down to it, the party doesn't matter, it's the man and what he represents. Democrats can be just as bad as Republicans and vice versa. Clinton did some good things, he balanced the budget, the economy and employment was good, and he gave us a whole new definition of sex. I was not crazy about him though. Also I agree with you, he covered up a lot while he was in office.

Regarding Schippers and what he said about the Oklahoma City bombings and Iraqi Republican Guards in this country planning another attack, I believe all he said about that. We have a large Arabic population here in SE Michigan so I wouldn't be surprised if we had a few of those here. In fact, the Detroit area is a hotspot for FBI agents since 9/11. We often hear something in the news about an arrest. There was just an article in today's paper that was just heartbreaking. A Yemen truck driver was caught in a terror sweep, wrongly accused, and being a truck driver, he lost his job. The judge threw it out of court calling it "Orwellian charges." I will get that article and post it later. Now the man is returning to Yemen. He said "I don't feel safe here. I think all Muslims are under suspicion." On the other side of coin, the FBI broke up a phoney charity organization here run by two Saudi Arabians. They were collecting donations to aid children and instead sending the money to a bank in Jordon to aid terrorists. They arrested one of the men and are looking for the other one. For that reason it would be real hard for me not to believe Schippers. I might add that had Ashcrofts bill gone into effect, those American citizens that thought they were donating to help children would have been arrested for aiding terrorists.

My anti-war policy you talked about is based on my worldview that has pretty much been formed throughout my life and especially from my Theology studies at Sacred Heart Seminary in Detroit. I taught 8th grade catechism which is why I took the classes. But I won't require you to take any vows of poverty in order to reply to the rest of my post. I don't think killing is right period. So war for me, is only as a last resort. I think there are "just" wars ( WWll for example) but on the most part, most wars are "unjust" and can be avoided. I do not want to save Saddams "sorry butt". I thought I had made that point clear so many times in my posts. He has to go. As I said before, he is a boil on the butt of humanity. I listened to Pres. Bush's speech tonight and from what he said, it sounds like he read mine and Greg's wish list. He spoke of a democratic government for Iraq and allowing the Iraqi people to elect their leader. I was very happy to hear him talk of a Palestinian State where those people can live free and independently in peace and where Israel can live free of terrorism and in peace. Thank you God! I also liked that Bush spoke about letting go of hate so that all people in the Middle East can live free and without fear. I think he will sway the anti-war group among us and the Europian countries to now support him in this war. Just this morning Greg stated that would win his support for this war and I agreed with him. There will be casualties among the innocent people of Iraq, that is unavoidable in war. However, to free the Iraqi people and all the people of the Middle East from the tyranny of Hussein, is what I see as a "just" war as long they are all free to elect their government without interference. It's not going to be easy to pull off because they don't trust the U.S. I hope and pray we do pull it off. So there, are you happy now, jwhop.

Oh by the way, if you read this on Wed. evening, tonight on Nightline they are going to talk about moral theology and just and unjust wars with the real theologians. I am only an amateur theologian. That will give you an idea of where my viewpoint is coming from.

Love, Connie

This article which I mentioned in my above post is from The Detroit News, Wed. Feb.26. This is what you were talking about, Greg. How innocent people can be wrongly accused in the "terrorist sweeps." I feel so bad for this man.

Man caught in terror sweep to return home after judge throws out 'Orwellian' charges

By David Shepardson / The Detroit News

DEARBORN -- On his way to Indianapolis to make a delivery, truck driver Mohamed Nasser Alajji got a flat tire and pulled into a rest stop in Springfield, Mich., where he was promptly arrested.

The day before, on Dec. 17, New York police got a call saying Alajji was plotting a "bin Laden al-Qaida" terrorist attack.

The FBI searched his home and truck, seized his computer and spent hours retrieving deleted e-mails. He spent 10 days in the Wayne County Jail, while reporters and federal agents staked out his home.

Alajji was freed Dec. 27 by a federal magistrate who dismissed the government's charges and later severely criticized the government's case in a confidential memo to other federal magistrates and judges that was obtained by The Detroit News.

Now, without an apology from the government and still officially under investigation, Alajji is going home to Yemen. The 31-year-old who came to Dearborn in 1995 is to fly home Saturday on a Royal Jordanian flight. An FBI agent will meet him at the airport to give him his passport and watch him leave Detroit Metropolitan Airport, the U.S. Attorney's Office said.

"I don't feel safe anymore. I think all Muslims are under suspicion," Alajji said in an hourlong interview Tuesday. "These accusations were totally false."

Federal investigators say they were simply doing their job in the post-Sept. 11 world of investigating all allegations of terrorism. But critics of the war on terrorism point to the Alajji case as an example of the government trampling on civil rights and hastily prosecuting Arabs and Arab-Americans for technical violations that it wouldn't normally pursue.

In the Alajji case, federal magistrate Steven Pepe agreed with that criticism. He sent the confidential memorandum to federal judges and magistrates in the eastern district of Michigan explaining why he threw out the charges. He called the government's case Orwellian (a reference to George Orwell, author of such chilling social critiques as "Animal Farm" and "1984").

"Our values could stand up to terrorism and not hobble effective law enforcement," Pepe said. "To abandon them would give the terrorists an undeserved victory."

But the head of the U.S. Attorney's anti-terrorism task force in Detroit said he and his colleagues do not owe Alajji an apology.

"That's a ridiculous question. We do our duty," Assistant U.S. Attorney Robert Cares said.

The government accused Alajji of committing fraud by failing to tell the Social Security Administration that he had been issued a second Social Security number in 1995.

The government's case came down to whether minor mistakes on a Social Security form -- he left a question blank and used a hyphen in his last name in one place -- constituted fraud, said Alajji's attorney, Corbett O'Meara.

Pepe drew a parallel with Orwell's work.

"In "Animal Farm," Orwell writes about certain laws that are written so high on the barn that most of the animals cannot read them," Pepe wrote in the memo. "To me, this last theory of the government's case -- the implied misrepresentation by omission -- on these facts seemed like such an Orwellian law."

Alajji was issued two Social Security numbers in 1995, described by his lawyer as a clerical error. Alajji never used the second card, and both copies of his original Social Security card were recovered by the FBI.

"This second card may well have been given or sold to another alien to allow him to get a job," Pepe wrote. "It has never been found. The statute of limitations has run on this offense."

Alajji's ex-brother-in-law recanted his charge that Alajji was planning a terror attack, Pepe said, noting that Alajji's ex-wife took their two children back to Yemen without the permission of the Wayne County Circuit Court.

Alajji has been under suspicion since October 2001, when a secretary at the Eaton Company in Ann Arbor called the FBI to say that shortly after he quit, a drawing had been left behind on a work table depicting the World Trade Center.

Two days after he quit the company, he denied creating the drawing in an interview with the FBI. Alajji said the FBI interviewed about 50 family and friends in its investigation, including his three uncles who live in Ann Arbor and Buffalo, N.Y.

O'Meara, the son of a federal judge in Detroit who did not get Pepe's memo, sharply criticized the government's actions against Alajji.

"What happened to him was wrong. He didn't do anything that if I had done it, the government wouldn't have thought it was a crime for five minutes," O'Meara said. "He is a decent guy who got caught up in the hysteria of our time. In the government's eyes, he is guilty until proven innocent."

O'Meara noted that his driver license doesn't spell his name with an apostrophe, while his bar membership card has an apostrophe.

"Am I guilty of some sort of fraud because I use some sort of alias" O'Meara said. "I am not a disfavored minority because Irish Catholic Americans are not the people who are being sought."

Alajji's case first came into the national spotlight on Dec. 23, when the government announced his arrest and asked media outlets to publish his photograph.

The government's court filings against Alajji raised numerous questions, however.

Prosecutors said a confidential informant claimed Alajji was ready to die and that he hated Christians and Jews. His former brother-in-law told the New York Police Department that Alajji was a terrorist "getting ready to bomb you guys."

Transcripts from Baghdad University in Iraq for a chemical engineering degree in 1997 obtained by an Ahmad Alajji were found, along with a photograph that the government said looked like Mohamed Alajji.

At home he had about 2,000 audiotapes in Arabic and thousands of Arabic documents in which religious leaders talked about Islam. He had state maps of Michigan and Indiana on his bedroom walls, along with posters of holy sites in Jerusalem.

On Tuesday, Alajji said he hadn't been in a fight since he was 7 and didn't harbor ill will toward anyone.

As for the maps: "I'm a truck driver, so I need maps."

O'Meara said the photograph federal investigators found didn't look like him and apparently was of his brother. In any event, Alajji was in Michigan in 1997.

Alajji said he bought the religious audiotapes from mosques in Dearborn and Hamtramck and they were simply to help him become a better Muslim. "They are to help me uphold the tenants of Islam, which rejects violence."

The tapes reflect the fact that Alajji is a deeply spiritual man, O'Meara said. When he was in the Wayne County Jail, he would often ask guards what time it was so he could pray.

Pepe agreed that the tapes were not evidence of a terrorist plot.

"All of the religious and Muslim fundamentalist information an tapes they found that he had were apparently protected by the First Amendment," Pepe wrote in his memo.

Imad Hamad, Midwest director of the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination, said the Alajji case shows that the government needs to do a better job of investigating whether confidential informants have an ax to grind.

Alajji's departure is a sad ending to the case, Hamad said.

"It is a difficult decision to leave. It is hard to go week to week with the burden of being a suspect," he said. "He leaves his American dream behind."

Alajji, the oldest of eight children, will return to Saan'a, Yemen's capital, thanks to a airplane ticket bought by his father, Nasser Ali Nasser Alajji, who owns several factories there.

Alajji said the first thing he plans to do when he arrives is get married. He said he wouldn't encourage his friends and family in Yemen to come to the United States.

"With these laws no," Alajji said. "I don't plan to come back to the United States until the laws change."

In October, Alajji applied for U.S. citizenship. He will abandon that hope by leaving on Saturday.

Asked what he'll miss most, he said: "My friends."

Love, Connie

Did anyone see the CBS / Dan Rather interview with Saddam tonight?

I don't care much for Rather...although my Mother loved him....but still...he showed a great deal of self-control sitting across from a murderer like that.

No matter how you feel about any of this....it was a good chance to really observe...and get a feel for Saddam...

I taped it ...so I could watch and listen separately....

The body language of Hussein was revealing.

The man is definitely NOT insane......which makes him all that much more dangerous.

Connie.....I watched GW's speech too...and I was thinking the exact same thing!!!....it was as if he went down the list Greg wrote item by item....

I was floored!...it was almost eerie.......sure makes you wonder who the anonymous lurkers are......

Well...even if thats a long shot.....it's worth the moment of hopefulness!

My brother-in -law got called back up....so there will now be 2 from my family...fighting this war.

Here's what my bro-in-law had to say:

" The young pups here are so hungry to go and ready to fight. They have never seen a real war, except in the movies, they have no idea how hard it is to kill someone, really kill them, and what war does to a mans' soul. "

The voice of experience.....

and Peace!

Dani

Dani I will keep your family members in my prayers. What your brother-in-law said was very wise. He knows the reality of war.

The things that Pres. Bush said in his speech last night were great in theory, but it's going to be real hard to pull it off in the Middle East with all the divided factions there. It's going to take a long, long time I think. Which means years of commitment for our troops. Our government is not trusted by the Iraqi people either. Letting go of hate, as Pres. Bush stated, is the only way they can come to live in peace in the Middle East, but that is also very hard for human beings who have that hate indoctrinated into them from very young ages.

Like you said, Dani it is worth the moment of hopefulness. It lifted my spirits for a time. But I still am concerned about the repercussions of this war.

Also the U.S. is going to introduce Iraq to a new bomb they have and that bomb itself worries me. It's called the MOAB ( short for massive ordinance air burst) They say it has a massive explosive punch similar to a small nuclear weapon. They say that whatever the target is it has to be dropped far from cities. The bomb is shoved out the back of an airplane and has no parachute. It is guided by satellite and can be dropped at higher altitudes which makes it safer for U.S. pilots. The thing that worries me about this new bomb is that it is still in the experimental stage, and while they say the target will be far from cities in Iraq, what if something goes wrong? You can find the information about this new bomb at the following site:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/World/newbomb030225.html

I hope we are doing the right thing. Also while our government is distracted with the war in Iraq, North Korea is using the distraction to plow ahead in their nuclear warfare development.

Love, Connie

Hello Connie!

I'm so glad to see that finally you would accept a war against Iraq as a "just war" if it would free the Iraqi people and all the people of the Middle East from the tyranny of Saddam... and if in post- Saddam era Iraqi people would be free to elect their own democratic goverment.

Twelve years ago, on 26 of February, after 7 agonizing months of Iraqi occupation, we were waiting for Kuwait to be free.

Now we're waiting again, not for the liberation of Kwt, but for another war, and we're ready for the possibility of chemical or biological attack from Iraq.
It's an agony even thinking about it, trust me, it's very scary.


But only the war will put end to Saddam's tyranny and end to those long years of suffering of Iraqi people, and end to the regional political tension.

We're very optimistic that the war will not last long.

We have our anxieties, the soldiers and policemen are all over the roads. The entire nothern area of Kwt is a military exclusion zone.
We're not in a very happy mood, trust me.

Throughout February the foreign embassies have been issuing advisories urging their citizens to leave if their presence is non essential. Several american and british schools have temporarily being closed.

The tension is very high and we live in it for months now.
War overshadows our lives completely.

Only a miracle can stop this war, but I doubt it that such a miracle could happen.

We're again facing our destinies here in Kwt. Wish all of us here a good luck, please!

El

Hi Eleonora

We will keep you and your family in our prayers and send white light your way throughout this war. It can imagine it must be very scary being right there on the firing line. I think it is also very scary for the Israelites. It seems that Israel and Kuwait are the two countries that Saddam takes out his retaliation on. I guess that is why Jordon is "quietly" aiding the American government.

They are saying here that the war will begin in early March, I think after the full moon (or was it during the full moon? ). If you possibly can, please keep all of us informed as to how you and your family are doing during the war and about what is going on in Kuwait.

Like you, I wish there was another way but it does not seem so and I am still praying for that miracle to happen.

God bless you and your family and may he keep you all safe, Eleonora.

Love, Connie

Hi Eleonora,

Blessings and a blanket of safety and well-being around you and your family and neighbors. It is bound to be a very scary situation to be living where you are at this point, regardless of what course events take in the coming weeks and months.

Let us all pray for the shortest possible path between the present situation and a just and lasting peace in the middle east and throughout the world.

Love,
Greg

Hello hello hello,

I'm late late late to this great discussion. Thanks to all of you for your thoughts and words and contributions.
First I want to say the most important thing is to keep prayng for a peaceful solution to this problem.

To keep with the spirit in which Greg started this thread, I will not add anything to what has been said because I have no further facts to add, just opinion.

However I was wondering if any of you could help with a question I still have after Sept. 11. What if the plane that went down in Penn. was aimed for the Capitol building? It would have been when many legislators and staff would have been present in their offices. If many of them were instantly killed, would the state governors instantly appoint their replacements? How long would this take to be accomplished? What would happen with the balance of power within this scenario? If anyone already knows, I won't be lazy and I'll go look it up myself.

Love,

Hi Connie

I saw a military "expert" (he works for Jane's magazine) being interviewed a week or so ago, and he talked about March 3rd as being the optimum time to launch an attack, as it was during the new moon, which means a dark sky. A dark sky poses much less of a problem to the American / allied forces because of their vastly superior night-vison capabilites, compared to the Iraqi army. Also, the war would likely begin with some serious bombing - I can't remember the numbers this pundit was talking, but I remember at the time thinking it was mind-blowing - he was talking in terms of a huge amount more ordinacnes than the opening of the Gulf War Pt.1 , he descibed it as a "rain of fire". But with the improvements in missle guidence, then hopefully (and I really really pray for this) the targets will be military, and civilans will be spared the worst of this.

The other reason the beginning of March is better, is because of the difficulty of fighting a possible ground war in the desert, in full NCB suits in the summer. If they can get it over and done with before the real heat hits, it will take much less of a toll on the soldiers, and be that much more effective. And if America/allied soliders have to end up fighting a dirty street fight in Bahgdad than I pray that they at least have weaterh on their side, because dear god, the possibility of terrible causalties on both sides is very high in that type of senario. Most of you would be surpirsed to ehar this, but I was once in our Army reserves, and one of our training exercies was in a door-to-door situation like that. It was the most stressful of any of the training exercises I particpated in. Phyisically, we didn't have to do the long marches in that we had to do on some of our ground exercises, but mentally and emotionally you had to be on a very high alert level. And there is something much more difficult about seeing your enemy at close-range. Most exercises we participated in, you might not get closer than 1000M to your targets, because with good scopes and decent marksmanship, you didn't need to be closer than that. But in an urban situation you might open a door and find 5 or 6 enemy soldiers waiting for you. There are ways to clear the rooms ahead of you - but you also have to be wary of civilans. Anyway, like I said, my experience with that was only limited to training, and very "junior" training at that. I really can't imagine the real thing, and I worry about the American men and women who may have to do the same thing, but for real. I am not doubting their phyisical preparedness, or their resolve, but I really wonder if kids who grew up having it as easy as we in North America have it are emotionally prepared for what might befall them. I know the gear-wise they are vastly superior to the Iraqi's they will be fighting, but better gadgets don't always win. Remember Mogadishu? That's what I think about whenever I think about American soliders fighting in Baghdad, and it breaks my heart. The incident in Mogadishu was a question of a few blocks. Baghdad (as described by Peter Jennings last night) is the size of L.A. AND they have been waiting for this invasion for months now, if not years....I don't want to think about what's underground in that city, or in places around Saddam's place etc.

So I will continue to pray for peace. It appears that that is all that is left for us to do. But I will also continue to question and watch all the governements participating for any trace of a hidden agenda, any sense of conspiracy, or greedy oil motives, precisely because I understand the cost of what they are proposing here, and I am not measuring it in the billions of dollars, but rather in lives...

Love,
Terri

Hi Terri

Thanks for clearing that up for me about the moon. I could not remember which it was. I also heard what you said about the bombing being more intense this time. To think I thought the bombing in the Gulf War was overkill!! Today on the news they said that Saddam Hussein was telling his people to dig foxholes in their yards. Not like that would do them any good. The satellite photos showed trenches being dug all around the country. They pour oil in those trenches and set them on fire hoping the smoke will mess up the guided missles. However, the air force said it won't do any good this time because the new bombs are satellite directed so smoke will not interfere with them hitting their targets. Part of that "rain of fire" they talk about is that new MOAB bomb I spoke of in my post above.

The problem is that Hussein builds his weapons plants and mutnitions sites in neighborhoods where civilians live so that the U.S. can't bomb them. He uses his own people as sheilds so to speak. That is cause for concern.

Another thing that bothers me is that, because so many of the Iraqi soldiers surrendered rather than fight in the Gulf War, Hussein has appointed what they term "stiffers" along with the troops. These stiffers are there to stiffen the reserve of the soldiers with orders to shoot them if they don't fight. This disturbs me. We are going to be killing men who are forced to fight against their will.

I would like to get everyone's opinion concerning the war protesters in Iraq. They are from different countries and they are there in hopes the U.S. will not bomb the grain site. Hussein paid their way there and provided nice living quarters for them with stocked refrigerators. The war protesters say they are not there for Hussein but to try and protect the innocent people of Iraq. But I think they are being used by Hussein. Our government says it makes no difference if they are there. If they want to put themselves in harms way it is their decision. However, the UN is saying that the U.S., knowing those protesters are there could be tried for war crimes if they bomb that area. I believe in freedom of speech and protesting but I don't know about this. To me it seems that what they are doing, though their intentions are good, is kind of treasonous. So I was wondering what everyone else here thought about this particular protest.

I would have never guessed you were in the Army reserves, Terri LMAO I agree with you that face to face like that, and not knowing what is behind each door is a whole different kind of war. Very frightening and lots more deaths. That is the kind of war that was fought in Viet Nam.

Love, Connie

Hi Pisces

The question you asked regarding an attack on Capitol Hill was a good one. I had not thought of that. Here is the answer to your question that I found on the net from USA Today :

Government tries to keep branches unbroken
Continuity of Supreme Court, Congress, presidency mulled
By Andrea Stone, USA TODAY


WASHINGTON -- When the nation's terror alert was raised to its second highest level on Feb. 7, government officials warned that terrorists might target the sites they missed Sept. 11. Tops on the list: the U.S. Capitol, widely believed to have been the target of United Flight 93 before it crashed into a Pennsylvania field.

Just 10 days before the alert was raised, nearly all the nation's leaders had crowded into the Capitol for President Bush's State of the Union address. The presence of the president, vice president, Senate and House members, Supreme Court and Cabinet reminded Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., of what went through his mind at his first such event in 1981: A Soviet submarine off the coast could launch a nuclear warhead that would vaporize all three branches of the federal government in 13 minutes.

"I got very nervous. The whole government was there," Specter recalls. "It's a real problem."

But 17 months after terrorists attacked Washington and New York, few changes have been made to ensure that the government could function if most of its members were killed or incapacitated. The House passed three minor rules changes in January; a "Continuity of Government" commission is set to recommend more options next month to safeguard against chaos after a terrorist strike.

"We're not talking about a theoretical problem anymore or a Tom Clancy novel," says Norman Ornstein, a senior adviser to the commission. "We're talking about real, tangible risks in a setting where the history of al-Qaeda is that if they miss a target, they come back at it. It's just not responsible to fail to act."

The commission is expected to recommend a constitutional amendment that would pave the way for legislation letting governors fill House vacancies in a disaster. It also may urge that governors be placed in the presidential line of succession, to provide continuity in the executive branch if most of Washington is destroyed. And it may promote a process for filling Supreme Court vacancies under dire circumstances.

The House has mostly avoided making contingencies for its own demise. Several bills for constitutional amendments and laws to address the issue languished in the previous Congress. A proposal to establish an "e-Congress" that would allow members scattered across the country to conduct business also went nowhere.

Scholars like Ornstein worry about a "hole in the Constitution" that leaves the government vulnerable if there are mass vacancies or incapacitated members. The issue is critical in the House, where the Constitution only allows vacancies to be filled by special election. It takes an average of four months to hold a special election. The Senate, by comparison, can be quickly replenished with temporary appointments by governors.

If more than 217 House members were killed or incapacitated in an attack, the House would be unable to reach a quorum and could be paralyzed for months. In a little-noticed move last month, the House changed three rules to help it function after a catastrophic attack. The most significant would allow the speaker of the House to change the number of House members from 435 to the number still living after an attack. That would solve the quorum problem and allow the House to convene even if only a tiny number of members survived. But many critics question whether such a rule is constitutional.

"The House rules are not enough," says former White House chief of staff Leon Panetta, a member of the commission studying the issue. "It's good to have the ability to adjust the quorum, but if you only have a handful of members left, that really is not representative of our democracy."

Panetta and other commission members support allowing governors to appoint temporary members to the House until special elections can be held. The move requires amending the Constitution. Rep. Brian Baird, D-Wash.; Rep. Zoe Lofgren, D-Calif.; and Specter each have proposed an amendment to the Constitution that would give governors such power if more than one-fourth of House members were killed or unable to serve. None of the bills has made it out of committee.

Another issue is presidential succession. The Constitution says that the vice president takes over if the president cannot serve. After that, the Presidential Succession Act of 1947 says the next in line are the House speaker; the president pro tempore of the Senate; and Cabinet secretaries, beginning with the secretary of State. Because all are based in Washington, the commission is expected to recommend including governors.

Some question whether the presidency should be allowed to shift to another political party, as is possible under the current arrangement. Rep. Brad Sherman, D-Calif., has proposed a law that would guarantee that the president's political party stays in power. Others say the Senate president pro tempore, the most senior member of the majority party, should not be in the lineup because of potential age and frailty. Ornstein recommends streamlining the line of succession to include only the top four Cabinet secretaries -- State, Treasury, Defense and attorney general -- and having the president add six governors to the list.

But Rep. Bob Ney, R-Ohio, chairman of the House administration committee, says major action has only a 50-50 chance of passing. To spur significant action, he says, "it may take another attack."

http://www.usatoday.com/educate/college/polisci/articles/20030223.htm

Love, Connie

Connie and Pisces

I don't mean to be deliberatly vauge - but I remember reading alot about this post 9-11, and there are some scary theories out there about what may have been planned for in the wake of a terrible disater that devastates your three branches of govn't - like the nuke senario mentioned above, or a terrorist attack at somethin like the State of the Union address. I haven't got time to go through my info again and make a post that would contain what I would call reliable information, or an informed opinion. BUT - if you do searches on the web using phrases like "Shadow Government" and/or search out that term on Alex Jones site ( www.infowars.com), Cloak and Dagger site or David Icke's site, you may find some informaiton about what they believe the outcome of a senario like that would be. Frankly, it's chilling...

And as I said - I don't necessarily belive any of what you might find out there, I just remember reading stuff about that phrase "Shadow Government" and wondering what truth might lie in these guy's allegations.

Love,
Terri

Hello Lovely People,
I wanted to add a little more ingrediants to the soup of knowledge and discussions.
Some of my ingredients may irratate the taste buds, but I hope not.

What is the biggest cost in a War?
Who benifits from War?
Where did Sadamm obtain his biological and nuclear weapons?

I ask those questions because I want to dig some info up on those questions I have.

As Greg mentioned, there is an agenda that plays to both Republican and Democrats. This force behind this agenda likes to operation covertly- the negative use of feminine energy. This force or body of individuals are not dumb. They know how to play on the emotions by using covert activities that produces outward active energy - The male use of energy. They can cause or istigates problems then have the solution waiting in the wings. The system of government is corrupt as well as the system of business. They are married. How?

The following is a true story.

I know a chiropractor and this is a brief story about his experince with democracy.
After graduation, he went to work for a chiropractor he knew prior to graduation. He amired this man. Wanted to learn from him. What did he learn? He learned the true nature of business. The Dr. he worked for was a very magnetic person with lots of knowledge. The Dr. is in a organization that L. Ron Hubbard had started. L. Ron Hubbard started Scientology. Hubbard learned how to conduct business. Business has no heart when it comes to succeeding at any cost even if you have to blackmail someone to do it. This keeps your enemies or potiential enemies at bay. Hubbard took on the IRS. Hubbard would keep files on everyone and so did this Dr. my chiro friend worked for.It protects you from potiential threats.

Also, you use the court system to your advantage. You can bankrupt people via the courts or put them in jail so they have a record. While in jail you would have to pay each day for staying there; however, paying the fee to the jail while staying is unconstitutional. You would have to hire an attorney to fight that situation. The money paid is split between the jailers. With government budgets cuts this is how jailer make an exra income. If you don't pay the fee they will hold you in jail until you pay- with a money order- no checks accepted.

My friend also learned how the Dr. used and manipulated people. The Dr. knew how to "work" people via their emotions. He knew how to work people very well and be successfull. My friend was so stressed while working for him that he decided to buy the practice or leave. The Dr. agreed to sell the practice to my friend. But it was a lie. My friend came back from vaction and the Dr. had locked him out of the office thus losing his job. My friend gave him his resignation effective within 2 months but ended up staying with the office until a month after the deadline and then went on vacation. My friend tried to get unemployment but the Dr. blocked it due to the resignation letter.

A year later, my friend moved back to the same town to practice out of his home. The city ended up puting an injunction on him because of zoning laws. Fortunalty, my friend knew the zoning laws better than the city. He learned from the Dr. about looking at all the rules of the game. Unfortunalty to fight the battle would cost money. $1500.00 for an attorney to take the case and the paperwork etc... Attorney fees eat up money. It was legal for my friend to have a business in his home, but small town politics is the same there as it is around the world.

This system of business is aided by politicians. Call it a marriage or bed buddys- whatever you call it, they are linked. A democracy will eventually fall apart because the majority rules. If you control both sides you can have more covert control. History has shown us that competiton for the "Ruler" or "Caeser" lurks around.

The US is a republic- laws that limit government not the people. If the US sets up a democracy in Iraq or anywhere for that matter, they will do so to suit their needs not the country nor the people. I can give more details concerning this "system" and how it works but it's late and my eyes are tired but I do want to eloborate more.

This "Elite" group uses astrology too. They know the advantages of astrology when conducting their operations.

Woody

Well, Greg and Connie thanks for your prayers and blessings!

I appreciate it!

I would keep you informed about the situation in Kwt, because I'm staying here for sure. Whatever happens I'm staying.

I don't really fear death because it's a natural transition from one state to another, but I do fear being in pain or watching other people suffer, I'm also scared of losing my dear ones, that would be devastating...

I know that I'm a treasured child of God and that he always protects me. I'm in contact with him through my daily prayers and affirmations. They are my daily habit and they do create miracles in my life, talking from experience!

Through my prayers and affirmations I feel intimate with the God and I know that he can hear me.

Just a brief answer to Woody, about who would benefit at the end from this war... millions of Iraqi people, the whole region, the whole world..
You're mentioning the "elite" using the astrology "too"... well, very clever elite! Astrology is a universal language and it's not restricted to one segment of the population.

Peace and Light
El

Hi again Connie!

The human shield anti American and anti war protesters in Iraq are displaying a lot of ignorance and stupidity.

They claim that they want to stop the attacks on civilians.

The group is being led by ex US marine and Gulf war veteran Kenneth Nicholson (33), he "wants to apologize to Iraqi people for what he was doing there the first time in 1991".

What about Iraqi people apologizing to Kuwaiti people for invading them in 1990!!!

Kenneth Nichols and his followers are willing to put their lives on the line to stop the war. Let them, not that I would feel sorry for them.

I think that they are traitors, they are helping a dictator.

Saddam has a long history of using human shields, do you remember in 1991 he was using Kuwaitis and some other foreigners and Iraqis at certain military and industrial sites as human shields.

TRAITORS!!!

Human stupidity always amazes me.

El

Hi All

El, that is sort of how I felt about the whole matter with those protesters in Iraq. They have good intentions but I think that is the wrong way to voice their disapproval of the war. I agree that it should be Hussein who is apologizing for all his crimes against humanity. To me it seems like when you go to an enemy country like that and allow yourself to be used as a sheild during war, you must have a death wish. Also, I see it as treason and Nichols may well be tried for treason after the war, along with any other Americans and British people who are there.

Woody, you made a very good point and I agree with what you said about the "elite". There most definitly is a "marriage" between corporate America and the government. Our government's decisons and policies are based on what benefits corporate America, and as you stated, our government is being run like a corporation with all the ruthless rules that apply there. Case in point; is that in trying to sway UN votes in our favor, those countries holding out or opposed to the war in Iraq are being wooed with phone calls saying, "those who are good to us, we will be good to them." Now to me that sounds like the typical way that corporations conduct business. Also, right now, while the attention of the American people has been directed towards the war (wagging the dog), corporate America is raping the economy of this country. One thing we as Americans have learned is that when the government deregulates anything, saying it will benefit the people better, it turns out to make it cost more for the people and benefit the corporations instead. The government and corporate America have their little covort pact as you said which amounts to the same premise being used to woo the opposing countries in the UN, "you be good to me and I will be good to you, you scratch my back and I will scratch yours." And while I posted it on jwhops thread about the people speaking out, this is as Libertarian candidate, Michael Badnarik stated, democracy in action rather than a Republic form of government. ( http://www.badnarik.org/info/republic.html )

Love, Connie

Dear Moonflower,

Thank you very much for your very helpful reply to my question. I didn't know there was so much current focus on this possibility.

Love,

Hello Eleonora, moonflower and PD,

moonflower- I was thinking of "Wag The Dog" when I was typing my last post.