Connie, thank you for your sobering story, and for reminding us that repression, genocide and brutality are not just things that happen in "other" countries that are less "enlightened" and "civilized" than ours. They are ever-present capabilities of ALL HUMAN BEINGS when we start to believe that people can be grouped into "us" and "them," and that "we" know best.

We should not forget that the westward expansion of Anglo-American culture at the expense of Native Americans was touted as the spread of "civilized values" and the bringing of "law and order" to "savages" ... and the masses of decent freedom-loving white Americans bought in to this story, supporting the "heroic indian fighters" with every bit as much patriotic fervor as those who now argue that America now has a "God-given mission" to bring "democracy" to the world!

At least in the next few days as this war begins to unfold and human beings once again fall as cannon fodder in yet another "righteous" war, I will do my best to refrain from debating or arguing with folks about these issues ... and it seems that others here also are less inclined to argue and more in touch with our commonalties as human beings than with the differences in our respective beliefs, and I think that's wonderful ... there is more than enough fighting that we don't need to add to it here, and we need our full attention to see with eyes and ears and hearts and minds what is unfolding in this latest theatre of war ... if indeed we even CAN see clearly behind the propaganda that will surely be drawn on all sides, and the denial of access to uncensored observation and reporting that has become the norm in latter days.

But as we watch and evaluate, I strongly urge each individual human being, regardless of whether our political views be conservative or liberal or our stance pro-war or anti-war, to keep clearly in mind that there have been and will be monsters of every race and culture, as there have been saints and heros from everywhere, and in the end we are all the same: human beings, no more or less. Each of us - individually, as well as nationally, racially and culturally - has the capacity to do good and the capacity to do evil, and the dividing line is often more fragile and tenuous than we imagine. Let us not forget that history has shown repeatedly that the most brutal and repressive expressions of man's inhumanity to man have generally been in the name of "bringing civilization to the savages" (or religion to the heathens, or progress to the backward, or any of the many other ways of saying "imposing our way of life on others.")

Perhaps the conquest of Iraq will result in a better life for Iraqis, and a safer life for their neighbors ... and I fervently pray that such is the case. Or perhaps it will bring about improvements for some and a worsening of life for others caught up in a growing wave of self-righteous fundamentalism and nationalism (aka "terrorism") arming for mortal conflict with self-righteous American worldwide policing of the peace ("imperialism.") It's hard to say. But regardless of how this conflict turns out, let us all remember that the greatest evils of history have been perpetrated in the name of "spreading civilized values" to less-fortunate "others" ... and that if our governments and leaders tell us that is our mission in the world, now here, now there, now someplace else ... then we should be afraid, very afraid. In the history of the world, spreading civilized values to those who don't want and ask for them has ALWAYS been a euphemism for empire. We are very foolish indeed if we think that in this particular blink of an eye in world history, it is otherwise.

Heavy-duty prayers for peace, comfort and goodwill to all.

Love,
Greg

Hi El,

Your posts today are touching to me. I appreciate as many of us with strong feelings about these questions being gentle with one another as we are being now - "as the clock ticks down to war," as CNN says, playing a horribly aggravating new background theme for the war that sounds like Morse code on cello. They play that and it makes you feel anxious. I am just really terribly sad about how the world is. I spent all day avoiding thinking about it, accomplishing other things. And now, on this thread that has grown gentler instead of harsher as some threads do, I just want to come in, sit down by the fire, pass around the quilts to everyone (it's cold here, and very snowy now), and have a cup of tea and cry.

El, please make sure your sealed room is big enough to provide you enough oxygen for the time you're in there. I can't believe it has come to sealed rooms ... and Cristiane Amanpour on the ground in Kuwait City. When Cristiane shows up, you know it's war for real. Take care. Be safe. God be with you.

Love,
Maria

Hi El

Thank you for your nice comments about me being valuable to the site. It is appreciated. I think everyone is valuable to the site in their own unique ways.

I was replying to Cristina's very touching post and I don't really see that me relating my family history regarding tyranny and injustices was any different than Cristina relating hers. I was responding to the topic which she brought up. We all get a bit off topic from time to time.

Now that war is inevitable of course I support our troops. I think most if not all Americans feel that way. If the Iraqi people are freed from Hussein's tyranny then that is wonderful and I will be very proud of my country for liberating them. That will be the good that is brought out of war. War is at best, sometimes, a necessary evil. I still wish we could have used diplomacy instead of bombs though. I still wish we had not alienated ourselves from a large part of the free world in the process. Especially Canada.

Love, Connie

Hey guys

El - I was just watching people in Iraq and Kuwait making preparations, and I thought of you. I can't imagine living under that type of fear and tension. My prayers are with you and your family tonight.

Connie - about Canada - I go up and down about this, but truth be told, I don't know that I really belive that Prime Minister Cretien didn't send troops to support the US because of any high-minded feelings about the UN process. I think it's cause over the last couple years Canada has not spent enough money on our army to maintain it very well. We have troops and ships committed to the war on terror, and will be heading (or co-heading) the joint NATO force in Afganistan soon. I think that Canada's resources are tapped out, but the PM didn't want to say that. He scored a hellvua lot of points with the public by talking the stance he did. The man has been in office for three terms now, and in national politics since the late 60's. He knows how to work these things to his advantage. Cynical of me, sure, but I can't help it. I see this guy as playing both ends off the middle - keeping John Q. Public on his side, but not being a jerk to the Americans the way the French have been, so he keeps his nose clean that way too. Sly old fox

Maria - Pass the tea and tissues, I've been feeling so odd and emotional these past couple days. It's so bizaree to be so literally full of life as I am now, and yet have so many images of death and destruction bombarding me from all corners. I'm glad I don't get CNN...

Love,
Terri

Terri, you made some good points there about Prime Minister Cretien and his "foxy" ways. That may very well be the case. I read today in the paper that there is worry that what happened in WWll when Japan used the opportunity to attack Pearl Harbor, that North Korea might do the same thing. The article also talked about how the U.S. troops are strung out to the limit between the war in Iraq, Afghanistan and other areas of the globe. Also their warships etc. are all either being utilized or in for repairs. Though when the Bush administration was questioned about this possiblity they down played it (no surprise there) and said it wouldn't happen. Well, I hope they are right. I guess we are going to find out one way or the other.

Love, Connie

Terri,

In reply to:

---

Maria - Pass the tea and tissues, I've been feeling so odd and emotional these past couple days. It's so bizaree to be so literally full of life as I am now, and yet have so many images of death and destruction bombarding me from all corners. I'm glad I don't get CNN...

---

Yes, that must be strange! I'm glad your pregnancy has gone so well. We just switched the TV to something about Queen Nefertiti for a break.

Maria

Thanks for your nice comments, Sabra. Yeah in Washington D.C. they have the Washington Redskins, and the term "redskins" is what the Native Americans were called. Another derogatory name and offensive to Native Americans. In Cleveland, Ohio with the Cleveland Indians what was objectionable was the team logo as you said.

Sorry for the mistake, Cristina. Tish made the comment and I was not really getting on anyone's case anyway. Just expressing my feelings because when you and Sabra and El talk about all your families have endured it touches me and I wanted to let you know I understand and why I understand.

Love, Connie

Elenora,

Please do make your secure room.....Saddam is crazy....and we have been trying to deal rationally with a crazy man....

This attack is likely to shove him over the edge.....and who knows what could happen.

Pluto is now cj Iraq's Saturn.....

You have been on my mind all day....please be safe.....and I will pray for you and your family.

The differences of opinion here should now really be put on the back burner.

It's time we unite our energies for this to be over as swiftly as possible...with the least amount of lost lives on either side.

We can debate later.....right now we need LIGHT.

True KnOwflake energy based on Truth and LOVE.

Be Safe El!!!! (((HUG)))

Dani

Hi Connie,

I feel compassion for what the American Indians and what your family went through. My best friend (who's now passed on) was part Navajo Indian. He bought me the book "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" when I was in High School. Before that, with the Cowboys and Indian movies I've seen when I was a kid in my country, I had a different impression with what the movies portrayed. It was then when I read the book that I realized the struggles the American Indians went through...the long walk of the Navajos in 1860 and ending 30 years later with the massacre of Sioux men, women, and children at Wounded Knee in South Dakota. How the Indians were herded off their ancestral lands into reservations, starved and killed if they resisted. Another heartbreaking book was "I Will Not Fight No More Forever" with Chief Joseph and the Nez Perce struggles for survival. Do you remember the movies "Soldier Blue" and "Billy Jack" and the song "One Tin Soldier"?Still remember the lyrics of that song, so sad.


One Tin Soldier

Listen, children, to a story
That was written long ago,
'Bout a kingdom on a mountain
And the valley-folk below.

On the mountain was a treasure
Buried deep beneath the stone,
And the valley-people swore
They'd have it for their very own.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.

So the people of the valley
Sent a message up the hill,
Asking for the buried treasure,
Tons of gold for which they'd kill.

Came an answer from the kingdom,
"With our brothers we will share
All the secrets of our mountain,
All the riches buried there."

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.

Now the valley cried with anger,
"Mount your horses! Draw your sword!"
And they killed the mountain-people,
So they won their just reward.

Now they stood beside the treasure,
On the mountain, dark and red.
Turned the stone and looked beneath it...
"Peace on Earth" was all it said.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.

There is nothing like the reality of war to bring home the value of peace, even in our own house.

That gave me chills, Cristina ... I remember the Billy Jack movies and One Tin Soldier so well.

Whatever our differences, they are puny next to our humanity. Prayers for the safety of you and your family, El ... and for the safety of all our soldiers, kin and otherwise, whose lives are on the line ... may they come home safe and swiftly ... and for the lives of all the human beings in and out of uniform on all sides at risk today and in the days to come. There is indeed an insanity at work, and no precautions are too great ... anything's possible. But love is more powerful than even the insanity of chaos, and I will EXPECT A MIRACLE. Lots of love to all. Peace and healing to the world.

Love,
Greg

Hello Maria, Connie, Dani and Greg,

thanks for your support, we really need it here.

There is a bad dust storm in Kuwait today. I hope it would get better later in the evening.

I have a terrible headache from all the stress but I do think that mentally I'm ready. God has always granted me with strenght in the moments of crisis.

The war is hours away now. The US troops have entered the dimilitarized zone between Kwt and Iraq.

I guess that deep down I know that I'm blessed child of God and that I will be ok, I'm more worried about all those soldiers going to war. And all those civilians in Iraq. My thoughts and prayers are with them.

God bless
El

Thank you for sharing your own personal stories here. Always good to hear different perspectives. In fact, I've been wanting to say this for a while, but kept getting side-tracked, but I want to take the time to thank all of you for all the time and energy and effort that you have put into researching and posting so much information here on the War and everything else involved.
I, as I am sure many here....silent posters included....appreciate all that we have learned along the way. Unfortionately not having much extra time to research myself (hence my infrequent posts, lol) It has really been appreciated.

Just a quick comment on the topic of the Iraqi civilians plight...., they have been on my mind all along...as all of the thoughts of this War have flipped and tumbled through my mind. I bet this is true of most here....simply because most are compassionate enough to take their welfare into consideration. Of course, I hope and pray that the one positive from this War will be their liberation. If I truly felt that our administration cared about the Iraqi's plight....if I felt that that was truly a moving force in their motivation, then perhaps I could understand a bit more....sympathize a bit more with the cause. I am most concerned that perhaps in the end, if Saddam is removed from power, that another Bath member will step up to take the "throne". In which case, without new governmental constitutions, all could be in vain...as another of the same could slide into power. But, as now, time will unfold...and only time will tell. Meantime thoughts of love and liberation and safety go out to all Iraqi's and USA soldiers alike.

~Sky Pilot~
(Eric Burdon--The Animals, 1968)

He blesses the boys
as they stand in line
the smell of gun grease
and their bayonets they shine
He's here to help them
all that he can
to make them feel wanted
he's a good holy man.

Sky pilot....sky pilot
how high can you fly?
You'll never, never, never
reach the sky.

He smiles at the young soldiers
tells them it's all right
He knows of their fears
in the forth-coming fight
Soon there'll be blood
and many will die
Mothers and Fathers
back home they will cry

Sky pilot....sky pilot
how high can you fly?
You'll never, never, never reach the sky.

He mumbles a prayer
and it ends with a smile
The order is given
they move down the line
but he'll stay behind
and he'll meditate
but it won't stop the bleeding
or ease the hate

As the young men move out
into the battle zone
He feels good,
with God you're never alone
He feels tired
and he lays on his bed
Hopes the men will find comfort
in the words that he's said

Sky pilot....sky pilot,
how high can you fly?
You'll never, never, never reach the sky.

You're soldiers of God
you must understand
The fate of your country
is in your young hands
May God give you strength
do your job really well
if it all was worth it
only time will tell

In the morning they return
with tears in their eyes
the stench of death
drifts up to the skies
a soldier so ill
looks at the sky pilot
remembers the words
"thou shall not kill"

Sky pilot....sky pilot,
how high can you fly?
You'll never, never, never reach the sky.


Lisa

Lisa - Eric Burden's song that you posted brought tears to my eyes. I thought of those young and frightened soldiers going into battle sometime today, as 8:00 PM EST is the hour.

El, God bless and keep you and your loved ones safe.

Dani You are so right, now is the time to put the debates about the war and the differences of opinions behind us and pull together for all the troops and each other. Now, more than ever, is the time to pray for our country, our world, our troops and each other.

Greg, I truly loved your post. You are one of a kind. I have never encountered anyone with more heart, understanding and wisdom than you possess. You have the gift of vision, the ability to see beyond the obvious. All of us are blessed to have you in our lives, even it's only via the net.

My heart is kind of heavy today. I feel an inner sadness and tension. None of us truly knows the outcome of this war and what the future of our world will be. I read the headlines, listen to the news, and wonder, are we ever going to learn to live together on this planet? Will we ever learn a better way? Love is the only answer because love conquers everything. The world will be a better place when we overcome our human fears and learn to love. God, through Moses gave us Ten Commandments. Jesus God narrowed it down to just one: "Love one another as I have loved you."

((((((((A big hug to all of you)))))))) Peace be with you.

Love, Connie

Hi Greg,

The song "One Tin Soldier" does gives me chills too, the meaning is so profound and heartfelt. I sang that song to my children to the point that they now sing it with me. It's a song that I keep close to my heart to keep as a constant reminder to them and myself that greed and hatred will cause our demise and that love and peace are the only treasure that will help mankind to survive. I'm singing this to my grandkids now.

Hi all,

"One Tin Soldier" gives me the chills as well. Since Cristina posted it I have been hearing it in mind all day which is not necessary a bad thing .

In the meantime I have been thinking. How do we talk about this to our children? After all, they are our future. We can't ignore it and pretend it is not happening in front of our kids. If they don't hear about the war at home, they will hear about it at school or elsewhere.

Whenever I talk to my 10 year old about any topic, I try to use age appropriate language and talk to her at her level without being condescending. But how does a parent give a fair assessment to their children as to what is going on without being so opinionated?

Sometimes what I do is ask her what she knows about it and what she thinks about what is going on before I start talking about it. I try to let her form her own opinion before I say anything.

Any thoughts? Anybody else talk to their children (especially the youngsters) about this war and how?

Love and hugs,
Sabra

Hi Sabra. Actually, as someone who volunteers with kids your daughter's age, I've paid attention to what the news shows are advising. I think the most important thing is to let her know that it's OK to talk about the war and ask questions. Kids feel better when they talk about what scares them. If she says she's scared, echo that back to her by letting her know you're listening. Acknowledge that she's scared and that it's OK. You don't want to tell her that nothing is going to happen here because unfortunately, the Trade Center attacks are proof that it can. But, make sure she knows that the soldiers are really far away. Also, let her know that if something happens she can call you and get a hold of you. She needs to know that someone's going to take care of her. Try and limit how much TV she watches and try to be there with her if she DOES watch TV. There are lots of scary images on the news these days.

Does anyone know where exactly U.S. troops are supposed to be crossing the Iraqi borders? Is it primarily from the south? Our ships are in the Persian Gulf, but Baghdad is 300 miles from the southern border.

I hope it's not insensitive of me to say that I hope Turkey concedes to let U.S. troops cross into Iraq from the north. That will shorten the length of the war. Unrealistically, I'd like to think that Iraqi soldiers will be overwhelmed when they see our forces and give up as a few did today.

Todd Zeranski
Bloomberg News
Mar. 19, 2003 01:30 PM

"With war possibly hours away, 17 Iraqi soldiers surrendered in the demilitarized zone on the Iraq-Kuwait border today, and are in Kuwaiti custody, the Pentagon said."

Can someone explain to me how U.S. and U.K. forces can be in the demilitarized zone between Iraq and Kuwait when Kuwait has offered Saddam Hussein asylum?

Christina....thankyou.

One Tin Soldier often plays in my head.... so it's nice to see that you have it too!

I can always hear her voice....who was it that sang that?

Sabra....tell them the truth.

Listen to the questions they ask...and answer them age appropriately.

Don't subject them to endless onslaughts of the media coverage......but let them hear some of it.

Refresh their prayers for peace.....and make sure they know the difference between the soldiers and the administration.

(Whatever happens, I don't want these soldiers to come home to the hatred the Vietnam vets did..... )

If you have a worrier child, like my lioness with the Virgo moon, go over some of the safety details.

Andrea felt a lot better when she found out that her school had a plan for what to do.....and once she knew she could always contact me or her Dad...or Aunt Colleen.

She expressed concern whether we have any targets near us..so we covered that as well....then we covered safety stuff at home...plans for water etc.

It's ok for you to tell her that you support the soldiers....but not the idea......it's ok for you to tell her what your heart feels.

It's ok for her to see you feeling neither black or white...but feeling grey instead.

Let her know it's ok to feel all sorts of things...all at once.

And that you feel the same way.

Pray with her.

Dani

Christina!

I just listened to Saddam speak on al jazzera.....and he actually used the phrase "Draw your swords!"

Gave me the willies.....

Dani

Dani, "One Tin Soldier" was sung by Coven

Brrrrrr, Bizzare coincidence!! Maybe Saddam knew the song!

Cristina

I missed your post earlier today. I love that song Tin Soldier. As I was reading the lyrics the melody and the voice of the singer popped in my head so it was almost like I was hearing the song.

Between your song, Tin Soldier and Lisa's song, Sky Pilot I am really weepy. It's been that kind of day. Especially watching the news tonight. They were talking to all those young kids who will be fighting this war. The ground troops have the hardest and most dangerous role in the war even though it is dangerous for everyone. Thanks for posting the song for us, Cristina.

I read Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee and I Will Fight No More Forever by Chief Joseph. Both very good books documenting the plight of the Native Americans. Another real good about the Lakotah tribe is Hanta Yo by Ruth Beebe Hill. My friend who is Lakotah sent me the book.

Did you know that the orginal name of the Navajo was Dine? The white man gave all the tribes new names. The Cherokee orginally called themselves Aniyunwiya, meaning the principal people. Sioux was the name that the white man gave the Dakotah and Lakotah. My Lakotah friend gets real upset when someone calls him a Sioux because he told me that Sioux means "enemy" which is why they were given that new name by the white man. There are some Cherokees who will not carry a twenty dollar bill in their wallet because it has Andrew Jackson's picture on it. They will carry twenty one dollar bills before they except a twenty dollar bill. The way I see it what happened should be remembered for the same reason the Holocaust should be remembered and talked about, so it never happens again. But I don't hold a grudge for what happened to the Native American people because it won't change things and it only makes you a bitter person.

Peace and Love, Connie

You're Welcome Connie. I didn't know about the name changes, thanks for letting me know. I've heard of that name Ruth Beebe Hill, I just can't remember where. I'll add it to my list of books to get, and the list is getting longer and longer.

I agree with you, holding a grudge for what was past won't change the past and will only make you bitter. I'll admit that I do have that tendency, but I'm working on it!

Connie, I know it is so hurtful and sad about what is happening, we can only hope for a positive outcome with all this and pray that lesser lives will be lost. We somehow need to try and center our energy to our prayers for that, rather than weeping for something that might be lost, this way, it may help strengthen the spirit of our soldiers and keep them safe and protected as well as the lives of those caught in the middle of all these. They need all the prayers and positive energies that we can send them.

Sabra, Dani...next thing you know you will be humming and singing it.

Sabra, Dani is right, tell them the truth. Let them know your feelings about in the same language level a your child. Have a plan of precaution prepared with them for any emergency that may arise without alarming them.

Sky, you mentioned Turkey. The US is waiting on Turkeys decision to change their mind about using its bases. Oddly enough, Turkey now has a new PM and they are expected to vote today. Search for PM Erdogan online. This is an older report, (he got in!)
------
.."Erdogan's election may also pave the way for a new vote in parliament on Washington's urgent request to deploy up to 62,000 troops in the NATO member ahead of a possible invasion of Iraq."

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/03/09/turkey.elections/index.html

Heres, what could be, a very important Nostradamus prophecy:


Century: 05 / Quatrain: 047

the great arab will march far forward,
he will be betrayed by the byzantinians(Turks):
ancient rhodes will come to meet him,
and greater harm through the austrian hungarians.
------
le grand, arabe marchera bien auant,
trahy sera par les bisantinois:
l'antique rodes luy viendra audeuant,
et plus grand mal par austre pannonois.

Theres also been a couple of huge CMEs which will produce horrible windstorms, so the military may have to wait.
SeeL
www.spaceweather.com

Eleonara.......as I watch events unfold.....please know that my heart and prayers are with you......for your safety and peace of mind....

Luv,
Rainbow

Rainbow! Glad you're here. Come sit around our cozy circle, here's a blanklet to wrap around your shoulders.

El, we've usually heard from you by this time of day, hope everything's still okay with you, please holler and let us know when you get a chance.

Love,
Greg