Hello everyone!

I've just heard on TV some parts of the the very interesting article "Deadlier than war" by Walter Russell Mead, Washington Post, March 12.

Just a few very important facts from this article:

The Gulf war killed somewhere between 21,000 and 35,000 Iraqis, of whom between 1.000 and 5,000 were civilians.

UNICEF estimates that containment (the sanctions or mostly Saddam's regime) kills roughly 5,000 Iraqi children under 5 years of age every month , or 60,000 per year!

Another 10 years of Saddam in Iraq would kill at least another 360,000 Iraqis, from that number 240,000 will be children under 5.

If we believe UNICEF 10 more years would kill 600,000 Iraqi children and around 1 million Iraqis.

Those sanctions are not to be blamed on America or the rest of the world, but only on Saddam!
There is a program "oil for food" which allows Iraq to sell enought oil every month to buy food for Iraqis, Saddam is buying other things with that money!

Please, all of you think about those numbers and be fair? War could and would kill many people but will also bring hope for a new future of Iraqi people. Those people deserve better than Saddam, and unfortunately the war is the ONLY ANSWER at this moment.

I respect all peace loving people, but those same people are ignoring the sufferings of Iraqi children and civilians for so many years.

El

Hi El

Thanks for sharing this perspective. Here is a link to the actual article published in the Washington Post:

Deadlier Than War

Certainly the crippling sanctions that have been imposed against Iraq have been deadly to the Iraqi people, and should be lifted regardless of anything else. Although they have been nominally in place to put pressure against Saddam's regime, the historical record over the past 12 years shows very clearly that they have hurt the Iraqi PEOPLE while doing nothing at all to dissuade Saddam.

In any event, it seems the debate about whether the US should attack Iraq is over: the administration has left little doubt that the decision is made and will proceed with due haste. Let us pray for the smallest possible loss of life, and the most favorable outcome for peace and stability in Iraq, the middle east, and the world.

Love,
Greg

PS - It should be noted, since we are paying attention to sources, that Walter Russell Mead, the author of this article, is senior U.S Policy Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations - one of the principal think-tanks pressing for a New World Order based on corporate globalism. For whatever that is worth.

Hi Greg!

The guy who wrote that article may be pressing for the New World Order based on corporate globalism, but he stated only facts in it.

I wonder how all those peace loving people on this site has nothing to say about the sad facts from that article? Strange.

Well, we're preparing for the war here in Kwt, it could happen really soon. It's scary and sad, but at the same time it gives all of us here HOPE for the better future of the whole region and especially Iraqis.

God bless
El

Hi Eleonora,

In reply to:

---

The guy who wrote that article may be pressing for the New World Order based on corporate globalism, but he stated only facts in it.

I wonder how all those peace loving people on this site has nothing to say about the sad facts from that article? Strange.

---

Well, Eleonora, does that mean I am not one of the peace loving people on this site? Because I absolutely DID have something to say about the sad facts in that article, and said it: namely, that the sanctions should be stopped regardless of anything else, because after 12 years it is very plain that they have resulted in a lot of death and misery to the Iraqi people WITHOUT accomplishing their stated intent of restraining Saddam.

Obviously one way to stop that destruction of life would be for the Western nations to lift those sanctions, and to adopt different methods of "containment" that harm the Iraqi military but not the Iraqui people. But the article fails to even consider that possibility ... rather it asserts - as you do - that the ONLY ANSWER is to immediately attack Iraq. That's not a "fact," that's an opinion, and one drawn without considering any other facts or any other possible options.

Again, the article goes on to blame Iraq for the terrorist attacks on the US, using this reasoning: after the Gulf war repulsing Iraq from Kuwait, US troops remained stationed in Saudi Arabia to prevent further aggression. Since it was the presence of US Troops in Saudia Arabia that was the "cause" of the rise of Al Quaida, therefore (according to Walter Russell Mead) Iraq was the cause of Al Quaida, and ultimately the WTC attacks. Talk about far-out reasonong rather than "facts!" Even if it WAS the presence of US troops in the middle East that "caused" the rise of Al Quaida, does Mead really expect us to believe that US troops would have completely withdrawn from Saudi Arabia and the region if the US had ousted Saddam during the Gulf war? And does he expect us to believe that this situation will be IMPROVED wen we topple Saddam and set up permanent military bases and US-sponsored rule WITHIN Irag? That's ridiculous! To the contrary, many responsible voices are saying that US occupation of Iraq will be the biggest recruiting boost that Al Quaida and other terrorist organizations have ever seen!

Many sources within the US law enforcement and intelligence communities themselves are frustrated that the US administration is not paying attention to its own information-gathering agencies about the "facts" here, but are rather deliberately suppressing investigations and reports that conflict with the administration's relentless war drumbeat. A statement issued last month by the Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity remarked:

In reply to:

---

Indeed, it is our view that an invasion of Iraq would ensure overflowing recruitment centers for terrorists into the indefinite future. Far from eliminating the threat it would enhance it exponentially.

- Full text of the VIPS memorandum, 2/7/2003

---

(The Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS) is a national organization composed mostly of former intelligence officers from the analysis side of the CIA, but the operations side is also represented. Its five-member steering committee has jointly over a hundered years of professional experience in the US intelligence community.}

No one doubts that Saddam is a bad man, or that he is brutal to his own people and has resisted (and still resists) complete disarmanment. But HUGE numbers of people, both within and without the US, from all walks of life and all levels of professional expertise, question the administrations simplistic formula that immediate attack is the ONLY solution to these problems, and its outright dismissal of the far WORSE problems that such an attack is likely to produce.

I don't think anyone is ignoring "facts" here ... I think what everyone is objecting to is the administration's simplistic assertion that the ONLY response to these facts is immediate attack and occupation of Iraq, with no room for consideration of other alternatives or of the potentially catastrophic results of such an action.

Love,
Greg

If you truly would like to know what us "peace loving" people think of this I will give you my opinion. Hopefully that opinion won't "provoke" you, El.

I think pretty much the same things as Greg has already stated regarding this article. I also think the article is self-serving and bent towards the authors viewpoint that war is the only solution to the problems in Iraq as Greg stated. The facts are distorted because the author states that Iraq was behind the attacks on 9/11 and there has been no conclusive evidence to support that claim either by the Bush administration or the author of this article.

I also have another opinion concerning the death figures you quoted from the author regarding the number of deaths of Iraqis under Hussein's regime. I know is not a popular opinion in this country or the world, but it's my opinion that we slaughter millions of unborn babies worldwide on a weekly if not daily basis and no one gets excited about that. No one is outraged about that. We call dictators like Hussein "butchers" and "murderers," which no doubt they are, but we as a world-wide society are just as guilty of what we accuse Hussein of doing. In fact moreso, because unborn babies are totally helpless. So before we go around pointing fingers at dictators, who are no doubt killing their own people, we need to think about where we as a society are guilty of killing as well.

What I just said reflects my opinion concerning abortion and it is just my opinion. I am not justifying what Hussein does nor supporting what he does, I am just pointing out that, in my opinion, we as a society are no less guilty of killing the innocent. And the deaths of unborn babies yearly is in the millions.

It's rather difficult for me to believe that you are truly outraged about these Iraqi deaths, El when you stated in my thread Behind the Scenes of the Gulf War, on seeing the Iraqi dead, that you did not care and that they deserved to die because they raped and tortured your people in Kuwait. Human beings are human beings rather they are soldiers, men, women or children or rather they are born or unborn. It's all human life. We cannot distinguish who "deserves" to die and who doesn't. Killing is killing.

Love, Connie

Hi El,

I do understand you very well. I know why you think the way you do, and feel the way you do. I also understand why you think War is the best choice.

Some 60 years ago, my great grandfather and Great Uncles fought against the president which was a Dictator. On those fightings my great aunt's boyfriend died, she never married and dressed in black for her entire life. But she always said, :"I don't mind that he had to sacrifice himself, and I don't mind to have lost the love of my life, if it meant freedom for our Country and family."

I also understand you, because I know personally many Cubans who had to escape from Cuba, and who would sacrifice themselves in order to see Cuba as a Free country and so their relatives back there and their children can live in a free country.

I am sure many Iraki and Arabs, would sacrifice themselves participating in a war that would take out Sadam from Power.

Don't you think Afaganistan people are happier now than before???

Maybe it is dificult for Americans to understand El, because America has been free for so many centuries, and have never have had a Dictator or a tyrane for President.

All through History, there were times when war was necessary...

Don't you think now is one of those times????


Tish

Hello my dear Knowflakes

I have not participated and said anything about the war discussions at the World Community threads and have no intentions of getting into any debate for that matter, except to say that I feel so torn and my heart aches so much for the what the people of Iraq is going through from the inhumane actions of Saddam and his followers towards his people and country. I am against War (war of self interest, of no cause) and I pray to God that he create a miracle to stop his undescribeable sin of horror that he is doing to his people and country and what he may do to the rest of the world. I've thought about the US going to war against Iraq and thought about the thousands of lives that are going to be lost, I thought about and compared how much more lives will be lost if nothing was done. I've thought, what if US going to war against Iraq is the miracle that will stop his horrifying inhumane acts towards his country and future actions towards the world. I've thought about I have my own war with in myself, I've thought the US and other countries has its own type of war within its government, within its own people, its family, homes and beliefs. I've thought and thought and thought and my mind has gotten so noisily irritating that I can't even hear myself think. I've thought, what if, what if and what if... then I remembered the stories my grandparents, parents, uncles and aunts has told me to what happened to my country and my people during WWII when the Philippines was invaded and help captive by the Japanese and its allies...what my beloved country-people had to go through, the 100 mile walk without food and drink to dig their own grave and later shot and buried, women taken from their homes and raped, babies taken away from their mother thrown up in the air and see them land and stabbed by the bayonets attached to the rifles of the enemies, finding my uncle with his hands tied behind his back with his head covered with a gunnysack and stabbed on the back, my grandparents hiding my father inside a barrel of days til the enemies left our area, my grandmother dying caused by childbirth complications because there was no medicine to cure her, the house were her body lay in a casket while my mother and her family mournes her with my dead baby uncle gets bombed and burned them to ashes, my relatives and countrymen fighting for our freedom that seemed so hopeless and many more horrifying events. They prayed for a miracle, prayed for help, prayed that they be freed from such oppression, free that it all be over and start new lives...they wanted wanted a miracle, help, freedom...then salvation came, the Americans landed on our land, helped and saved my country from the oppression, feel peace in their heart that their families are safe, put the horrors they were subjected to behind and rebuilt their lives and start again. They stayed and were very much welcomed to help and rebuild the results of war. They helped in our independence, they helped how we can defend ourselves if we were again subjected to such oppression. My people and country felt so much gratitude and respect for the US in stepping in and helped us once again regain our Freedom. (the other time was during the Spanish colony)

Pro war, against war...it's all discussed from an outside point of view, in our heart do we really know or hear the cries for help for Freedom from such Inhumane Act of Opression? Are we really there to experience it all? Yes, lives will be lost, it will be lost whether we do go to war or we don't, lives will be sacrificed to save lives (be it by the Iraqi Freedom Fighters or US and other countries who help), cities will be burned down and ruined to be built again for the price of "Freedom to be Free". What price is not worth for Anyone or Any Country to have "Freedom to have Freedom"? It can be Iraq, it can be China, it can be the Philippines, it can be the US, England or Any Country...it just happen to be Iraq.

This are my feelings and thoughts and have no intentions to debate it, only the need to free what I have been holding in my heart.

Hi Cristina,

I totally agree with your post, plus you wrote it wonderfully.....


Tish

Hi Tish and Cristina,

I understand what you are saying too. You both know that my dad as a boy and his European family were in China when Japan invaded in WWII and spent years in a concentration camp run by the invaders until the camp was liberated by American pilots shortly after the atomic bombing of Japan.

Liberation of countries from brutal invaders, as in the Philippines and China, or a revolution for liberty from within a country to depose its own brutal dictator, as in your country, Tish ... those are clearer justifications.

I respect your request to not debate, and I don't want to either. I like your non-combative energy, you two.

But in balancing all the information and opinions I've seen, I don't want my country to invade another country under these circumstances.

I agree with Eleanora that the economic sanctions have been a tragedy. I think the obvious meaning of that is that the US and UN did something wrong in the way they arranged things at the end of the Gulf War. We know how to get food and medicine to people. We should have gotten food and medicine to people.

Instead, we caused death and suffering for the vulnerable, in hopes that Saddam's Iraq, which was a literate country where women had rights and worked as doctors, etc., would become so horrible that the people would rise up against the dictator. It has become horrible. They haven't arisen.

We screwed up, us and the UN. But I object to bombing our way out of it. I don't have sources to post for this. It's my take, formed over the course of years and years of trying to make sense, as an ordinary person, of what was going on.

The American public is very split and conflicted on war under the conditions that Bush said today were his plan. Here's a Gallup poll:

In reply to:

---

WASHINGTON - The American public supports military action against Iraq (news - web sites) to remove Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) from power, but the level of backing depends on administration efforts to win international help, according to a CNN-USA Today-Gallup poll.

According to the poll, released Monday:

_Eight in 10 supported a U.S. invasion if it was backed by a United Nations (news - web sites) resolution.

_Just over half, 54 percent, supported an invasion of Iraq if the U.S. offered a resolution but the U.N. didn't pass it. Forty-three percent were opposed.

_People were just about evenly split on an invasion if the United States did not offer a U.N. resolution and said it would proceed with military action without any new vote. In that case, 47 percent supported such an action and 50 percent opposed it.

---

Much love,
Maria

Cristina,

What Tish said . . .



Sabra

El
Tish
Cristina

Thank you ladies for reminding every one of the differences between the murdering butchers of the world and the United States. It's a sad commentary that the reminder was necessary or that people don't understand that the United States comes to the defense of others, sometimes just because it needs to be done and we can.

Love
jwhop

Hello there Greg!

I'm sorry, of course you're one of the peace loving people on this site, and you always try to be fair to everyone.

I didn't mean you, Greg. But it doesn't really matter.I reacted because I was surprised that ONLY you were touched enough by those sad facts (talking about Iraqi kids!) to reply to me.

Yes, I do think that the only answer now is to attack Iraq and remove Saddam from the power, Greg this is not an "immediate attack", this attack is coming after 12 long years of waiting and wasting time!

What are other alternatives, more waiting? It wouldn't work.

OK, you cross your fingers that the lunatic doesn't attack first, I've just heard that he officially rejected president Bush's proposal.

Everything is in God's hands now. We can only pray and hope for the best.

Love and Light
El

Hi Connie!

Nothing you say can really provoke me that much that I would lose any sleep at night, I'm not on this site to fight with people nor I'm doing it.

That time you have choosen to show us a picture of a dead Iraqi soldier, instead of showing some other pics, for example of some dead Kwt soldiers or civilians.. I cannot really feel sorry for that unknown soldier who was maybe killing and raping Kwt civilians.
But I do fell deeply sorry for all the innocent Iraqi kids and civilians.

What abortion has to do with my post?

Btw, I'm pro choice myself, you can call me a killer of innocent children if you wish, I don't really care.

This is getting silly

Have a wonderful day!
El

Hey guys, Christina, Tish, Sabra, Jwhop,

thanks for your support and understanding!

God bless America!
El

Peace and safety to you El, and to everyone in your area of the world, and to all of us everywhere.

I would like nothing better than to be mistaken about my trepiditions over this war. Time will tell.

Love,
Greg

Thanks Greg, I appreciate it!

We're ready, I guess. Last time the war came as a complete surprise, this time we're waiting for it.

I hope that this war would be short and effective.

Honestly I'm still praying that somebody from the Iraqi goverment would kill Saddam and his sons. Sorry Connie! I'm honest, I want this guy and his sons to disappear. God would judge them on the other side.

El

El, you are in my thoughts and prayers, you shine through as a very loving soul!!

Christine, I was very moved by your story, thanks for sharing it.

Sabra, yours, also.

Right now, my focus is on our military, they need our support and loving thoughts. And everybody of the world!!

Donna

Hi El,

I apologize in advance that this post is so long but I couldn not say what I feel in a concise way.

In reply to what you asked about what abortion has to do with your post, El,I was simply pointing out that there are other injustices in the world and other deaths of children every day that is sanctioned by the world community. I was using that as an example. Pointing out the double standards we have as a society. I guess that is one issue where I agree with Pres. Bush and his administration.

Cristina, I read your post and it was very touching. I'm sorry that your family and country have been through so much, as has Sabra's family and country, and all that your country has been through, El. All the things that all of you have said that your people have suffered, and the atrocities that took place under the regimes of Hitler and Hussein, have happened to my people as well. Only it was the United States government at the time that did those things to my people and Ginny, and Terri's people. The atrocites were no less. Long before the Trail of Tears there were stockades built to house the Cherokees and other Native Americans before they were forced from their homes and marched thousands of miles. They suffered inhumane treatment in those stockades. Pres. Andrew Jackson told the government of Georgia, who wanted the land of the Cherokees, to "light a fire under them, then they will leave." So the homes (not teepees, but cabins) were looted, their livestock were run off, their homes burned and it was open season on the Cherokees who were farmers and peace loving people. No one cared if in the process Cherokee families were killed. Then finally Pres. Jackson ordered the stockades built and the Cherokees evacuated from their land. Even the land that was given to the Cherokees and promised to be theirs forever was taken away from them. Then reservations were created on the worse land that could not be farmed. In order to force the Native Americans onto the reservations their main source of food, the buffalo were slaughtered by government orders. The Native Americans used buffalo hides for warmth in the winter, food was not the only use of the buffalo. If you read the history of the Native American people you will see that the United States government performed no less atrocites on them than what Hitler did to conquered people or what Hussein did in Kuwait and to his own people.

It would be a gross injustice to diminish what happened to the Native American people. Yet it was the U.S. government that did those things to my people. My great grandmother was just a baby when her family was uprooted and forced to march on what came to be known as the Cherokee Trail of Tears. Over 4000 of my people died on that March alone. Then thousands more died from blankets supplied to them from the U.S. government that were first treated with the Small Pox virus as a means of genocide. My great grandma grew up on a reservation in Oklahoma. Life for her was hard. Well beyond that and to this day, Native Americans are discriminated against.

You said America has always been free, Cristina, so we don't understand what it is like to go through what your families have gone through. I understand, Terri understands, Ginny understands. Ask the black man in America or the Native American people if they have always been free. Both races are still discrimnated against in white America. Both races have achieved much through the years, but not without suffering gross injustices. And their achievements have only been won through the very dissent that so many of you despise and lable anti-American. If not for that dissent against the injustices of this government regarding their treatment, they would not have won what freedom they now possess. Yet they still have to fight for what rights are due them under the Constitution. I have been called a "half-breed" in my lifetime which is the same as calling the black man a "nigger." It's a derogatory term. I know that Ginny has as well and probably so has Terri. I have a friend who lives in Colorado who is half Lakota. He has had to fight his way through life. My mother was born and raised in Oklahoma and my grandpa told the kids, don't tell people you are Cherokee. Because he did not want his kids mistreated. A lot of Native American people for a long time had to deny their noble heritage and pass as pure white in order to not be discrimanted against. Ask the black man and the Native Americans if they have always been free. And before you lable me, or Ginny or Terri as being insensitive to what your people have endured, or being anti-American because we favor peaceful means of negotiation instead of war, before you tell us we do not understand, walk a mile in our shoes. I sympathize with what happened to all your people, because I do understand it.

Ask the Native American or black man in America if dissent is unpatriotic. Those two races have fought in all the wars for the very country that discriminated against them out of their love for this country. In our armed forces during WWll while we were liberating your countries and freeing your people, the black man was not allowed to live in the same barracks as the white man, not allowed to eat with them or use the same bathroom facilities. Not even allowed to fight side by side with them. Yet they loved this country enough to be willing to die for it. Same with Native Americans. What the United States government did to my people, my family members, does not make me love my country any less than any of you do. Neither does being against war. Before you judge me for speaking out about the injustices I see in this country and the world simply because it disagrees with your thinking, and before you judge me for seeing and pointing out the legislation that is unconstitutional, before you judge me as being an America hater, walk a mile in my shoes. This country belonged to my ancestors thousands of years before your ancestors even knew it existed. Thousands of years before the other part of my ancestors even knew it existed. Before he was executed for defending his people Chief Sitting Bull told his tribe, "bury my heart at Wounded Knee." A U.S. calvaryman who was ordered to assist in the removal of the Cherokees is quoted as saying, " I have been through the civil war, but no where have seen worse things than what was done to the Cherokees." Here is a quote from Davy Crockett: "I would sooner be honestly damned than hypocritically immortalized."
Davy Crockett. His political career destroyed because he supported the Cherokee, he left Washington D. C. and headed west to Texas.

I am sorry if you take this to be offensive or "argumentative." It is not intended that way. None of my posts are meant to be that way in fact. You may not agree with me being a "peace lover" but please, don't think that I don't understand or care what happens to the Iraqi people or any of your families or countries. And please don't imply that because I am against this war that I hate the government or this country. I love America. That is all this post is intended for, to tell you that I do understand. I do know equally as much as you do what tyranny is.

Love, Connie

God Bless America
Written by: Irving Berlin

While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer.

God Bless America.
Land that I love
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans, white with foam
God bless America
My home sweet home.


~ ~ God Bless and Watch over us all, our families, friends and soldiers ~ ~

-----------------

El, God bless and keep you and your family safe.

Connie, I'd like to make a correction, I did not state that America has always been Free, I stated that I have thought a lot of, as I struggle emotionally as to how to release from my heart what I feel about this war, that "...US and other countries has its own type of war within its government, within its own people, its family, homes and beliefs". I don't believe at this time that any country including the US or human beings around the world are free, "Freedom" and "Peace" has always been the struggle of our existance and that has always been our aim to achieve, and each one of us have our own beliefs on how we are to achieve it.

Connie,

What makes your story even sadder is that history books especially in our school system does not truly reflect what you just said above. History usually shows the Native American as the bad guys while the white man as the good guys.

Take a look at how Hollywood and the movie industry portrayed American Indians in the 1940's to the 1960's. This is how a lot of Americans formed their opinion of Native Americans. By the way, it was the white man that introduced head scalping. They were paid a bounty for each scalp as a way to scare off or get rid of the Indians in the territory.

When Native American's rightfully complained about how some sports teams have names like the Washington Redskins, etc. the responses are usually, "we had that name so long, why change it now" or "why are you just complaining about it now" or "I don't find that name offensive, and it's just a name for a sports team". I am not at all Native American, but I always thought those names were offensive and those views even more repulsive.

Sabra

Hi El ,

You are in my thoughts as well. I am sure the anxiety levels are very high. Please stay safe and let's hope this ends as fast as possible with the minimal loss of life on all sides.

Sabra

Hi guys

Connie, that was a touching post.

I'd just like to mention that I haven't ever encountered direct discrimation, but mostly because I probably don't look "native" to people, unless they already know about my background. But my ethnicity did play a major role in my life. My biological mother was young and lived in one of the western provinces, where apparently there is much more racisim. Whhen she was pregnant she was hooked up with a convent that was helping her to find a couple to adopt her baby. They deliberatley organized my adoption to be as far out of that part of the country as possible, so that I wouldn't have to deal with those kind of "half-breed" comments that are still very previlent. Also, the nuns told my adoptive mother that it would have been almost impossible to find "good" parents for me, as most wouldn't want a kid with any native blood. How sad. Anyway, I have had a good life and nothing to complain about that way, except of coures that I am totally alienated from my heritage. I suppose that's a common enough feeling for adopted people, but it can be hard at times.

Anyway, I'm sorry to get off the track of your thread El, and FYI - I wasn't ignoring this thread out of a lack of sympathy for the Iraqi people. I am VERY sensitive to their plight. I am just not convinced that war will improve their lives. If it does than I will be very happy. But I didn't like your sarcastic comment about all us "peace-loving" people either - I don't think you have the right to judge anyone on this site like that. It's back to that same old argument we've been debating here for months - being against war does not equal being against the Iraqis. Personally, I didn't post anything because I didn't want to get drawn into that same old debate again.

Love,
Terri

Hi Connie!

You don't have to apologize to me for anything, I've told you I'm not here to fight with anyone, especially not you. You're a valuable and very active member on this site.

The injustices are all around us, your're right.

Let me tell you something, I'm not an admirer of President Bush, but I do think that he deserves some kind of respect, especially now, when he is the Chief Commander of the armed forces that in less than 30 hours are going to war.

I think that Pres. Bush really believes that this war is the war against evil.

Saddam is evil, we've all agreed on that one. He cannot be rescue; every time the world community had tried to rescue Saddam Hussein it failed.

Saddam is a God child as you and I are, but the world has to turn its back on him. He cannot change, he cannot turned into a normal leader, we cannot appeal to his conscience because he has no conscience.. He doesn't believe that anythind bad is his fault.

By choosing darkness Saddam has to finally pay a very high price, but unfortunately he's taking with him many innocent people.

That's why in this big game of Life and Death I see President Bush and America as a Light against darkness.

I'm not scared of America, why would I be? I'm scared of the dark forces hiding all around the world.

By destroying one of them, only one of them, we make a first step toward Light and a better future for the new generations. I don't know if you can follow me.

What I don't like are the people who are not quite sure where they belong, even though I know they might be confused and lost.
I'm glad that you love America and that you stand behind your country especially in this moment.

I do know about the sufferings of the Native Americans and the black people in America, that's a historic fact.

But I don't see a connection between that and what we were saying about war and the current American policy. Nobody is trying to diminish the history of the Native Indians , on the contrary, you should teach us more about it, you should start a new post.

Tyranny destroys, it's a disease. If this war destroys one tyrant, that's a big step.

If only every person on this planet would simply turn to God and away from darkness, what a wonderful planet this would be, the planet of Light and Peace.

God bless, no hard feelings Connie

El

I'm not going to jump into too much about this impending war because so much has already been said. And this thread has given me a lot to think about.

I WILL say that Americans are sadly very unaware of global events and I believe that most don't even know why GW wants to go to war or why Saddam is considered a tyrant.

Personally, I went to an Air Force Air Show this weekend. I felt very at home being on base. I grew up around one and the site of uniforms makes me feel at home. When many civilians were saying they felt uneasy at the presence of reservists at our airports I felt relieved. I look at these men and women in khakis with guns on their backs as the keepers of peace, not as war-mongers.

The men and women in our armed forces stand at their posts and say to us "Nothing is going to happen on my watch." That's what I hear anyway.

So, I'm very emotional and feeling stretched today. I tear up when I think about war and all the consequences, the death and suffering. And although I may not want this conflict to begin (as we all know it will), I am thankful that our soldiers are there to do their jobs.

Thanks for your blessings, Donna, Christina and Sabra!

I'm still not sleeping, well it's over Midnight here and the tension is growing minute by minute.
I have still not prepared our "sealed room" in the house , I just can't believe that Saddam could use the chemical weapons.I'm refusing to believe in that! Sabra, I heard that in Tel Aviv people are preparing those same sealed rooms, sad, what that lunatic Saddam is doing to all of us.

Time to go to bed, thanks for your positive thoughts and vibrations, we all need to send a lot of positive vibes to our American and British troops in the desert.

Terri, sorry if I've sounded sarcastic, that's usually not my style. I'm under a lot of pressure for the long, long time, now it's a culmination I guess.Looking for a better days, definitely! I'm an optimist!

Have a nice day everybody!

Love and Light
El

Connie, thank you for your sobering story, and for reminding us that repression, genocide and brutality are not just things that happen in "other" countries that are less "enlightened" and "civilized" than ours. They are ever-present capabilities of ALL HUMAN BEINGS when we start to believe that people can be grouped into "us" and "them," and that "we" know best.

We should not forget that the westward expansion of Anglo-American culture at the expense of Native Americans was touted as the spread of "civilized values" and the bringing of "law and order" to "savages" ... and the masses of decent freedom-loving white Americans bought in to this story, supporting the "heroic indian fighters" with every bit as much patriotic fervor as those who now argue that America now has a "God-given mission" to bring "democracy" to the world!

At least in the next few days as this war begins to unfold and human beings once again fall as cannon fodder in yet another "righteous" war, I will do my best to refrain from debating or arguing with folks about these issues ... and it seems that others here also are less inclined to argue and more in touch with our commonalties as human beings than with the differences in our respective beliefs, and I think that's wonderful ... there is more than enough fighting that we don't need to add to it here, and we need our full attention to see with eyes and ears and hearts and minds what is unfolding in this latest theatre of war ... if indeed we even CAN see clearly behind the propaganda that will surely be drawn on all sides, and the denial of access to uncensored observation and reporting that has become the norm in latter days.

But as we watch and evaluate, I strongly urge each individual human being, regardless of whether our political views be conservative or liberal or our stance pro-war or anti-war, to keep clearly in mind that there have been and will be monsters of every race and culture, as there have been saints and heros from everywhere, and in the end we are all the same: human beings, no more or less. Each of us - individually, as well as nationally, racially and culturally - has the capacity to do good and the capacity to do evil, and the dividing line is often more fragile and tenuous than we imagine. Let us not forget that history has shown repeatedly that the most brutal and repressive expressions of man's inhumanity to man have generally been in the name of "bringing civilization to the savages" (or religion to the heathens, or progress to the backward, or any of the many other ways of saying "imposing our way of life on others.")

Perhaps the conquest of Iraq will result in a better life for Iraqis, and a safer life for their neighbors ... and I fervently pray that such is the case. Or perhaps it will bring about improvements for some and a worsening of life for others caught up in a growing wave of self-righteous fundamentalism and nationalism (aka "terrorism") arming for mortal conflict with self-righteous American worldwide policing of the peace ("imperialism.") It's hard to say. But regardless of how this conflict turns out, let us all remember that the greatest evils of history have been perpetrated in the name of "spreading civilized values" to less-fortunate "others" ... and that if our governments and leaders tell us that is our mission in the world, now here, now there, now someplace else ... then we should be afraid, very afraid. In the history of the world, spreading civilized values to those who don't want and ask for them has ALWAYS been a euphemism for empire. We are very foolish indeed if we think that in this particular blink of an eye in world history, it is otherwise.

Heavy-duty prayers for peace, comfort and goodwill to all.

Love,
Greg

Hi El,

Your posts today are touching to me. I appreciate as many of us with strong feelings about these questions being gentle with one another as we are being now - "as the clock ticks down to war," as CNN says, playing a horribly aggravating new background theme for the war that sounds like Morse code on cello. They play that and it makes you feel anxious. I am just really terribly sad about how the world is. I spent all day avoiding thinking about it, accomplishing other things. And now, on this thread that has grown gentler instead of harsher as some threads do, I just want to come in, sit down by the fire, pass around the quilts to everyone (it's cold here, and very snowy now), and have a cup of tea and cry.

El, please make sure your sealed room is big enough to provide you enough oxygen for the time you're in there. I can't believe it has come to sealed rooms ... and Cristiane Amanpour on the ground in Kuwait City. When Cristiane shows up, you know it's war for real. Take care. Be safe. God be with you.

Love,
Maria

Hi El

Thank you for your nice comments about me being valuable to the site. It is appreciated. I think everyone is valuable to the site in their own unique ways.

I was replying to Cristina's very touching post and I don't really see that me relating my family history regarding tyranny and injustices was any different than Cristina relating hers. I was responding to the topic which she brought up. We all get a bit off topic from time to time.

Now that war is inevitable of course I support our troops. I think most if not all Americans feel that way. If the Iraqi people are freed from Hussein's tyranny then that is wonderful and I will be very proud of my country for liberating them. That will be the good that is brought out of war. War is at best, sometimes, a necessary evil. I still wish we could have used diplomacy instead of bombs though. I still wish we had not alienated ourselves from a large part of the free world in the process. Especially Canada.

Love, Connie

Hey guys

El - I was just watching people in Iraq and Kuwait making preparations, and I thought of you. I can't imagine living under that type of fear and tension. My prayers are with you and your family tonight.

Connie - about Canada - I go up and down about this, but truth be told, I don't know that I really belive that Prime Minister Cretien didn't send troops to support the US because of any high-minded feelings about the UN process. I think it's cause over the last couple years Canada has not spent enough money on our army to maintain it very well. We have troops and ships committed to the war on terror, and will be heading (or co-heading) the joint NATO force in Afganistan soon. I think that Canada's resources are tapped out, but the PM didn't want to say that. He scored a hellvua lot of points with the public by talking the stance he did. The man has been in office for three terms now, and in national politics since the late 60's. He knows how to work these things to his advantage. Cynical of me, sure, but I can't help it. I see this guy as playing both ends off the middle - keeping John Q. Public on his side, but not being a jerk to the Americans the way the French have been, so he keeps his nose clean that way too. Sly old fox

Maria - Pass the tea and tissues, I've been feeling so odd and emotional these past couple days. It's so bizaree to be so literally full of life as I am now, and yet have so many images of death and destruction bombarding me from all corners. I'm glad I don't get CNN...

Love,
Terri

Terri, you made some good points there about Prime Minister Cretien and his "foxy" ways. That may very well be the case. I read today in the paper that there is worry that what happened in WWll when Japan used the opportunity to attack Pearl Harbor, that North Korea might do the same thing. The article also talked about how the U.S. troops are strung out to the limit between the war in Iraq, Afghanistan and other areas of the globe. Also their warships etc. are all either being utilized or in for repairs. Though when the Bush administration was questioned about this possiblity they down played it (no surprise there) and said it wouldn't happen. Well, I hope they are right. I guess we are going to find out one way or the other.

Love, Connie

Terri,

In reply to:

---

Maria - Pass the tea and tissues, I've been feeling so odd and emotional these past couple days. It's so bizaree to be so literally full of life as I am now, and yet have so many images of death and destruction bombarding me from all corners. I'm glad I don't get CNN...

---

Yes, that must be strange! I'm glad your pregnancy has gone so well. We just switched the TV to something about Queen Nefertiti for a break.

Maria

Thanks for your nice comments, Sabra. Yeah in Washington D.C. they have the Washington Redskins, and the term "redskins" is what the Native Americans were called. Another derogatory name and offensive to Native Americans. In Cleveland, Ohio with the Cleveland Indians what was objectionable was the team logo as you said.

Sorry for the mistake, Cristina. Tish made the comment and I was not really getting on anyone's case anyway. Just expressing my feelings because when you and Sabra and El talk about all your families have endured it touches me and I wanted to let you know I understand and why I understand.

Love, Connie

Elenora,

Please do make your secure room.....Saddam is crazy....and we have been trying to deal rationally with a crazy man....

This attack is likely to shove him over the edge.....and who knows what could happen.

Pluto is now cj Iraq's Saturn.....

You have been on my mind all day....please be safe.....and I will pray for you and your family.

The differences of opinion here should now really be put on the back burner.

It's time we unite our energies for this to be over as swiftly as possible...with the least amount of lost lives on either side.

We can debate later.....right now we need LIGHT.

True KnOwflake energy based on Truth and LOVE.

Be Safe El!!!! (((HUG)))

Dani

Hi Connie,

I feel compassion for what the American Indians and what your family went through. My best friend (who's now passed on) was part Navajo Indian. He bought me the book "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" when I was in High School. Before that, with the Cowboys and Indian movies I've seen when I was a kid in my country, I had a different impression with what the movies portrayed. It was then when I read the book that I realized the struggles the American Indians went through...the long walk of the Navajos in 1860 and ending 30 years later with the massacre of Sioux men, women, and children at Wounded Knee in South Dakota. How the Indians were herded off their ancestral lands into reservations, starved and killed if they resisted. Another heartbreaking book was "I Will Not Fight No More Forever" with Chief Joseph and the Nez Perce struggles for survival. Do you remember the movies "Soldier Blue" and "Billy Jack" and the song "One Tin Soldier"?Still remember the lyrics of that song, so sad.


One Tin Soldier

Listen, children, to a story
That was written long ago,
'Bout a kingdom on a mountain
And the valley-folk below.

On the mountain was a treasure
Buried deep beneath the stone,
And the valley-people swore
They'd have it for their very own.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.

So the people of the valley
Sent a message up the hill,
Asking for the buried treasure,
Tons of gold for which they'd kill.

Came an answer from the kingdom,
"With our brothers we will share
All the secrets of our mountain,
All the riches buried there."

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.

Now the valley cried with anger,
"Mount your horses! Draw your sword!"
And they killed the mountain-people,
So they won their just reward.

Now they stood beside the treasure,
On the mountain, dark and red.
Turned the stone and looked beneath it...
"Peace on Earth" was all it said.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.

There is nothing like the reality of war to bring home the value of peace, even in our own house.

That gave me chills, Cristina ... I remember the Billy Jack movies and One Tin Soldier so well.

Whatever our differences, they are puny next to our humanity. Pray