JWhop -

You are no longer here, but take a bow!

You supported President Bush in a very hostile environment, right here in these CE Forums. You spoke out against the cruelty of Saddam Hussein, in spite of the protests of many CE members. You stood up for the Iraqi citizens and their right to live without the constant fear of brutality. So take a bow, JWhop! You have been banned from this site for your beliefs, but I say ...

God Bless You, JWhop, and God Bless America

Many of us hold you in the highest regard, and cannot let this day of celebration end without including you.



Thanks, JWHop.

Love,
Joyce

Hi Joyce,

I'm glad that you're feeling happy and euphoric. However, it's still important not to let enthusiasm take the place of accuracy, so for the record:

Quote:

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You spoke out against the cruelty of Saddam Hussein, in spite of the protests of many CE members.

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Actually, no members protested any statements about Saddam's cruelty. Everyone here has been in complete agreement that Saddam was a cruel and brutal dictator. What IS true is that many members protested against this war on Iraq, which jwhop insisted on regarding as synonymous with supporting Saddam or denying his crimes. That's not the case, however, and those who were accused of that corrected the error numerous times, only to hear the judgment re-asserted again and again.

Quote:

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You have been banned from this site for your beliefs, but I say ...

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No, jwhop's posting privileges were not suspended for his beliefs ... indeed, others who express the same beliefs are still posting away here. Jwhop was suspended for repeatedly expressing himself in a manner that was hostile, attacking, insulting and blaming to other members, in disregard of our forum's rules and our community's mission to be a place of peaceful and respectful discussion. He was admonished about this many times, and it was explained to him very clearly that ANY ideas were welcome, but that expressing them as attacks or insults and treating other members as "enemies" rather than fellow community members in respectful discussion was NOT okay, and would result in suspension if persisted in. He persisted.

What's more, I said VERY clearly at the time I suspended him that he was welcome to resume posting at any time, if he would simply email me stating his agreement to follow our rules and refrain from attacking and insulting members in the future -- and that is still the case. However, I have not heard one word from him since then, so the only reasonable assumption is that either he has simply lost interest in posting here, OR that he is unwilling to agree to refrain from attacking and insulting other members and to respect our mission to be a peaceful discussion site. Neither jwhop anyone else ever has or ever will be banned from this site because of their ideas or beliefs.

Just the facts, ma'am.

Love,
Greg

Greg, SIR -

I am sure that JWhop will not be coming back here. It is rather you, Greg, who should be apologizing to JWhop.

As for me feeling happy and euphoric; yes, I do. It is a shame you couldn't feel just a little more happy about yesterday's events. The United States of America, which you repeatedly slam, is not perfect. Once in a while, however, you could point out something positive about our country.

While this war is not over, it is certainly moving along quickly. As we see the torture chambers and hear the horrific tales of the treatment of the Iraqi people - couldn't you feel some of their relief? Can't you be proud of our troops? Can't you feel just a little pride in being an American? Can't relate to you very well. So much negativity.

Linda Goodman would not be pleased with your attitude.

Regards,
Joyce

Goodmorning Joyce,
Greg owes no one, not even his country any apologies. And I think you're TOTALLY wrong in assuming you know how Linda would think about any of this. I believe Greg understands how she would have thought.

Linda was no doubt a spiritual enough person that she had worked past ego and pride...and in case you missed this recently, I'll retype what she had to say about killing someone in war. Its on page 556 in Star Signs..

....."Do not kill any living creature for any reason"..."Not killing is so basic, it shouldnt even need to be mentioned. If you have formally killed "in the line of duty", with the mistaken notion of patriotism, forgive yourself and cleanse yourself. Theres never a real reason for killing anything or anybody."

Theres more, so if you have a copy. check it out as I have to run.

Some of us love the United States of America. I am proud of my dad, who served as a pilot in WW2. I am proud of my son, who served in the navy. I am proud of all of the Americans who have unselfishly served their country, the United States of America. Thank you.

Let us now take a musical break:


God Bless The USA


If tomorrow all the things were gone

I'd worked for all my life,

And I had to start again

with just my children and my wife,

I'd thank my lucky stars

to be living here today,

'Cause the flag still stands for freedom

and they can't take that away.


I'm proud to be an American

where at least I know I'm free,

And I won't forget the men who died

who gave that right to me,

And I gladly stand up next to you

and defend her still today,

'Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land

God Bless the U.S.A.


From the lakes of Minnesota

to the hills of Tennessee,

Across the plains of Texas

from sea to shining sea.

From Detroit down to Houston

and New York to L.A.,

There's pride in every American heart

and it's time we stand and say:


I'm proud to be an American

where at least I know I'm free,

And I won't forget the men who died

who gave that right to me,

And I gladly stand up next to you

and defend her still today,

'Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land

God Bless the U.S.A.


Lee Greenwood






"God Bless the U.S.A."

I don't know how anyone cannot believe that America was wrong in getting involved in this. This war was beyond giving freedom to Iraq. It was inhumane how these people were treated. Saddam is a person whose name is heard with the same breath as Hilter, Stalin, etc. He's an evil man. Thousands of people have been killed for no reason. We should have allowed this to continued? Because we're not sure how the rest of the Middle East views this? Who cares? They're only looking out for their own necks, and don't care how people are treated. Do you know that Saddam's son had care packages and the "Oil for Food" packages stored in his house? It never went to the people. Not only were they tortured, but were starving in one of the most richest countries in natural resources. It's disgusting.

Nope. Linda Goodman would have wanted us to act for the people of Iraq.

"It is very odd. The Americans and British stand for a world based on a handful of principles that have stood the tests of time: representative government, free speech and free press, free economies, free trade, human rights and the rule of law."

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/4/7/92341.shtml

Anew....*sigh*....



GOD BLESS THE USA......written and recorded by Lee Greenwood, is actually a very moving song....it stirs the juices of pride in each and everyone of us who live here.........

....that is....it did with me....until some very disturbing things came to light, reading excerpts from a book called TransFormation of America.....

Lee Greenwood, was never a favorite of mine but I did think...gosh, what a neat guy to have written a song like that.........but now....everytime I hear it...I shudder to think it might be the most blatant exercise in HYPROCROCY that was ever fed to the innocent, freedom loving people who love our country....*sigh*

...I wrestled with whether or not to post the following link.....because it's sure to open another whole can of worms.....*sigh*....

On the other hand.....if what one reads there is true....it could also be a great "eye opener" to those who have no idea at all...what has been going on behind the scenes.....

What you'll find at this link......is an "excerpt" from the book...

TRANCE Formation of America is the first documented autobiography of a victim of government mind control. Cathy O'Brien is the only vocal and recovered survivor of the Central Intelligence Agency's MK-Ultra Project Monarch operation. Tracing her path from child pornography and recruitment into the program to serving as a top-level intelligence agent and White House sex slave, TRANCE Formation of America is a definitive eye-witness account of government corruption that implicates some of the most prominent figures in U.S. politics.

http://www.trance-formation.com/book_excerpts/cokelines.htm

Luv,
Rainbow

Joyce,

God blesses the world and everything and everyone in it.
The hairs on your head are accounted for and every second of your breath.

Take a leap in faith. The pride and glory of those before you are part of your heritage. They did there part according to their knowledge. Now you can exceed them. You can use you warrior sprit for something beyond the material. You can tap the conscious understanding of the sprit. Exceed the worldly attachments and grow in knowledge and wisdom. Lead the fight of the heart and soul with love. Burn the fuel of the sprit and kill ignorance with the truth of love, save your own soul so it can be a beacon for another. One at a time, with everyone you meet, be ready and prepared to explain why you are so great. Believe the lies no more.

The road is wide but the path is narrow.
What profit a man to gain the whole world and loss his soul?

Live forever in Peace, Live forever in truth,
with the sprit of God and humanity.

There are no borders, there is no law, there is no limits in sprit.


Love and Light,
Darwin

Also, and this should probably be in another thread, I don't think the UN should be able to play a major role in the reconstruction of Iraq. They didn't see a need to go in there in the first place. They thought everything was fine. All of a sudden they want to be involved. Give me a break. The Three Stooges -- France, Germany and Russia now want to be part of the action. They should burn in hell because we allow them to screw up our hard work.

Your flowery words don't do much for my any more, Greg. And, yes, I view you as a communist.

Joyce

Darwin -

Don't try to give me your self-righteous crap, after all of your past not so spiritual posts! Join the communist group. I guess red is a nice color. Let's have everyone be the same. God forbid some of us have nice posessions and do better than others. Down with competition! Down with the ego! Give me a break!!

Joyce

Greg, I was distressed to see this thread. I don't know what exactly led up to jwhop being blocked from this site. I certainly understand what you're saying. Jwhop had a tendency to take a confrontational approach in expressing his beliefs. But, I read several threads where you and others who disagreed with his opinions did not do much to foster a more constructive environment. A few conversations turned into pissing contents

The two of you antagonized each other. I agree that, on his part, the name calling was unnecessary. But, I never felt like you did much to defuse the situation. Why not ignore some of those comments? By insulting him and trying to prove your own point, you just helped the situation escalate. You don't calm a hostile person by telling them they're wrong. I just think you could have approached this whole thing differently.

I appreciate that you have tried to make this a comfortable environment for those of us who post here. I have tried to approach discussions in a constructive way, even when I adamantly disagree with the opinions being expressed. You and Connie have both disagreed with my view on this war, but we were able to discuss our opinions and share ideas in a rational way, for the most part. For that type of exchange to take place, someone has to be willing to initiate a less hostile environment. I'm disappointed that you and jwhop were unable to do this.

Please consider what I've said and reconsider your decision to block jwhop from posting. I think if you don't address your posts to him, he will be less argumentative. Just ignore him. Can't you two express opinions without trying to convince the other person that you're right? That's a pointless effort.

Joyce,
Why are you sooo angry that some people do not think like you do? You of course have every right to your feelings but why do you think others don't??
I am not trying to be a smart***, I just do NOT understand where you are coming from.

And I have another question if you would care to explain something for me. Why is the word COMMUNIST such a bad word?? I have NEVER understood that. I know we were SUPPOSED to hate and despise that system of government that was "practiced" in Russia but THAT never was true communism.

I have been reading the excellent book (highly recommended by Linda, in fact, at the back of StarSigns)"The Prophet of the Dead Sea Scrolls" by Upton Clary Ewing. He talks of the highly spiritual lifestyle of the Essenes (who alot of scholars think Jesus belonged to) and THEY lived a communist lifestyle.
You see, in my mind I think most families live a "communist" lifestyle. Do the little ones get less because they produce less? Or does everyone get what they need and not take more than they need because they are taking from the family that they love?

What if everyone was your family??

Edgar Cayce said eventually we will combine the best of communism and capitolism.
Neal Donald Walsch talks about higher evolved "beings" living that same way.

In my own mind I don't think it will work YET because we are not spiritually advanced enough for that. But I think that is what some of us are working towards. It's what we hope our consciousness evolves to.

There are alot of people who have nice homes and nice things that feel this way. Sometimes I feel a sense of guilt for all the blessings I have and for the sense of "lack" that I sometimes see others as having. (I'm talking materially.)

But then I remember reading a story about an Indian man who pitied us....because we NEED soooo much. Different perspectives.

I don't begin to think I have all the answers. Truthfully I feel very conflicted. I cried at some of the pictures of the Iraqi people who are getting their first taste of freedom in their lives. I know their life was hell under Saddam. I think he did evil things. But I STILL cannot get past my OLD deep-seated despair at the thought of war. I felt like this during the Viet Nam war too. I've always felt this way. I just keep wondering if war was NOT an option how then would we solve our problems??

Or to borrow that way overused question...What would Jesus do??

Hi Sky

Quote:

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I appreciate that you have tried to make this a comfortable environment for those of us who post here. I have tried to approach discussions in a constructive way, even when I adamantly disagree with the opinions being expressed. You and Connie have both disagreed with my view on this war, but we were able to discuss our opinions and share ideas in a rational way, for the most part.

---

That's exactly my point, Sky. If people are willing to respect one another's basic humanity and refrain from attacking and insulting each other, ANY disagreements can be discussed rationally and productively. But when someone expresses an idea and someone who disagrees with it attacks the PERSON who said it rather than addressing the idea and explaining why they think it is mistaken, NO rational discussion is possible. Countless times, over a long period of time, when folks expressed an opinion that jwhop disagreed with, he attacked THEM, not their ideas. He repeatedly labeled anyone against the war as America-haters, regardless of the fact that those of us who DO love America but opposed going to war calmly and patiently stated that such was not the case, and rationally explained why. jwhop completely ignored it and flung the same accusation out over and over again, addressing those he responded to in contemptuous tones and making no attempt at calm discussion or sharing ideas. In this last thread that broke the camel's back, he started the thread for the purpose of snidely BLAMING those of us who opposed the war for the death and suffering of the war, and continued railing about it with angry hostility. I told him that was his last warning and he could either stop being hostile and accusing or be suspended, and he immediately responded with another hostile accusing post to me, so I banned him.

Quote:

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Please consider what I've said and reconsider your decision to block jwhop from posting.

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I've already said, at the time I banned him and more than once since then, that I will gladly restore his posting privileges if he will simply write to me agreeing to refrain from attacking and insulting other members in the future. He has not done so. And no, I will not reconsider allowing him to post if he is unwilling to agree to follow the same rules everyone else here is asked to follow.

Love,
Greg

Hi Everyone
Sorry I haven't been around for a long time - still having big legal problems with my ex....etc etc.

Anyway - you may think this is slightly off topic ...but.....as our common bond is Linda Goodman ie: astrology. I personally have found it very interesting to see how the different signs communicate and respond. Do you think we sometimes forget the astrological "effects" of the way different people communicate? The topics discussed on this forum were always going to be like a "red rag to a bull" if you understand what I mean. Maybe this forum is here to help us all grow in our way of communicating and accepting each other? What do you think?
Greg, what were/are your expections of this forum? Did you expect it to get heated? If so can I ask why you started the forum and if not how do you feel about it now?
I'm not just asking Greg, I'm interested in everyone's thoughts. It's quite amazing how many things we actually do out of our own awareness - that impact greatly on our lifes (in our awareness)
Sue

Joyce, I've spent a lot of time trying to explain my position to you, and the philosophy behind this site, and the importance of listening and responding to each other's ideas rather than insulting and angering at those you disagree with.

You didn't address a single thing I said, but dismissed it all with "your flowery words don't do much for me anymore, Greg" ... then proceeded to call ME a "communist," say that our European allies should "burn in Hell" because they failed to support Bush's will, and tell Darwin "don't try to give me any of your self-righteous crap" and to "join the communist group."

It has become very clear Joyce that at this time you have no interest in discussing ideas here, but have only returned for the purpose of venting your anger and bringing strife and discord to the site. So this is YOUR final warning.

I do like you, Joyce, and I would love to have you here to exchange ideas and participate in friendly discussion, but I will NOT have this site turned into a battlefield.

Love,
Greg

Greg,

Some here consider you their spiritual leader. You merely use this website to promote your hatred of the United States of America.

Peg - God help me. "What is wrong with communism?"

Thank you god for giving me the right to speak my mind in the United States of America. I love my country. BAN ME FOR THAT, GREG.

I am sure you will delete this post.

Joyce

... God Bless the USA

I stand by my following statement, although there was a type-o. France, Germany and Russia should burn in hell BEFORE we allow them to screw up our hard work. Yes, I stand behind that statement:

Also, and this should probably be in another thread, I don't think the UN should be able to play a major role in the reconstruction of Iraq. They didn't see a need to go in there in the first place. They thought everything was fine. All of a sudden they want to be involved. Give me a break. The Three Stooges -- France, Germany and Russia now want to be part of the action. They should burn in hell before we allow them to screw up our hard work.

Now back to the hating the USA talk. Will it be:

9/11: The Inside Job?
Bush and Saddam: The Same?
etc., etc., etc.?

Joyce

Hi Sky & All,

Not to beat a dead horse, but what Greg said above is exactly the same way I saw and felt what was going on. This name calling and insulting of people that don't see things the same way we do, certainly does not help the spirit of community here, or help to bridge the gap... it just makes it wider IMHO.

I found it to be completely frustrating, and not worth the effort to even read through the threads in that type of enviornment... after a point, I would just ignore select hostile posts, but then it really does ruin the theme of discussing ideas, when the people who are insulted, have to explain their view, feelings, ect, over and over again. In the case of jwop... he did not even acknowledge what they had to say and then just repeated the same name calling and insults over again (I'm refuring to the post/s he made that got him banned).

I certainly hope that this hostile environment in this forum will eventually reach the point where thoughts, opinions, viewpoints on war can be discussed without hostility and name calling. It really serves no point other than to alienate people and cause more seperatness... which is really , because we are all connected and not seperate ... we are pieces of one another - good, bad or indifferent.

Much to us all!

Hi Cat

Sorry you're still having legal problems with your ex. With the economy in the shape it's in and the general agitation and insecurity in the world, I suspect many of us are having financial problems, work problems, personal problems and other challenges at this time ... which is no doubt at leas partially responsible for the short tempers and intransigent attitudes surfacing at this time, along with the perennial difficulty of discussing the traditionally "hot" topic of politics.

Certainly our astrological makeup affects our style of communication; and hopefully, learning to recognize and adjust for that, in ourselves and others, is one of the many things we can learn from conversations about stressful subjects. However, astrological style and predisposition is no excuse for willfully and repeatedly refusing to respect our discussion rules and other posters, any more than a sociopathic personality (which is arguably at least partially genetic) is an acceptable legal defense for committing any crimes.

My vision and expectations for this World Community forum? Well, on an objective level my hope was for it to be at least partially a place where we could jointly brainstorm potential solutions to the critical challenges in the world from a spiritual perspective. Certainly I recognized that with politics a necessary component of such discussions, heat was sure to arise from time to time ... and my hope was that within a spiritual community such as ours, we might be able to learn to translate at least some of that heat to the process of learning to listen to each other and building bridges rather than guarding our own ideological borders and shooting down those who cross them. Clearly this is a skill that if the world at large fails to learn at some point in the near future, we can look forward to nothing on a global scale but war, hatred and repression. Clearly such a learning process is POSSIBLE, as witnessed by the admittedly few but nonetheless real and successful coalitions of traditional blood enemies, such as Israelis and Palestinians, who have formed groups to understand and support each other on a personal, human level, even despite bitter personal experiences of each member with members of the "other" side. Such groups form a small "seed" of genuine peace that has the potential to grow and ultimately affect the larger societies in which they are embedded. My hope and intention for this forum is similar.

I'm not naive enough to expect this to happen smoothly or automatically, nor that there will not be many challenges and "slips" in the process. With my own Aries Moon and Scorpio rising, I'm well aware of how intense and opinionated I can be, and have frequently caught myself responding to someone with more caustic emotion than is necessary or helpful. We all do this at times, some more than others. But the question is whether we can learn from it, or even more if we intend to learn from it. Many, many times I've caught myself responding to someone with undue sharpness, and come back to apologize. Many other times I've felt myself getting caught up in the urge to "prove a point" more than to present a viewpoint and promote understanding, and have simply taken a deep breath and regrouped with a better attitude. And by far the majority of folks here, most of the time, have done the same thing ... and we also help each other out with this by pointing it out to each other when we see anger or self-righteousness getting the upper hand. These are all useful learning experiences, and as such are to be valued (even if not necessarily "enjoyed" at the time. )

But there is a clear difference between valuing the process of learning to disagree without attack and doing our best to participate in that process even when we slip off the wagon and have to pick ourselves up again, and NOT valuing it or making any effort to learn or practice it. At he Israeli-Palestinian support groups I've mentioned, heated argument DO arise from time to time ... everybody's human, and these people especially are living their daily lives in environments where both sides experience genuine injustices on a regular basis ... but because of their commitment to the precepts of peace and understanding, such arguments are dealt with by appeals to the mutual goals of the group and end up with the restoration of peace and mutual respect, even when the objective issues of disagreement remain. But if someone were to join such a group WITHOUT a commitment to peaceful discussion and working toward mutual understanding, intending instead to proselytize for one side while insulting and expressing hostility for the other ... and if that person refused to be "reminded" of the group's peaceful objectives but plowed ahead relentlessly with singleminded hostility toward the "other" side ... that person would eventually be asked to leave the group, because that relentlessly one-sided hostile energy would undermine the group as a whole, and make its objective of learning to peacefully discuss differences and lend human support above and beyond those differences impossible to realize.

That's my perception of what's happening here to undermine my vision and what I think is the vision of many others for this forum. There are two "major" views here: a hawkish view that is pro-war and favors the administration's strong authoritarian measures to fight the "war on terrorism," and a dove-ish view that opposes war and is concerned about the rise of authoritarianism and the loss of civil liberties in the name of anti-terrorism. But those are broad=stoke major viewpoints that don't exhaustively describe any individual's perceptions and concerns, and there are many, many facets and implications of everything going on that many of us would like to discuss. But if every discussion that proceeds from the perception that war and authoritarianism are dangers to be avoided is stopped in its tracks by a barrage of insults hurled at those "unpatriotic" or "communist-supporting" enough to fail to support the administration, then it becomes impossible for the discussion to get any further than the level of folks defending themselves against such charges again and again. The quest for any deeper understanding or discussion becomes permanently sidetracked.

Heat I can understand. Occasionally getting carried away and expressing too much heat I can also understand ... if it's accompanied by a willingness to hear that and turn it down when it's pointed out. But perpetual heat WITHOUT a willingness to tone it down and get back to friendly discussion when it gets out of hand sabotages the purposes of the site and the forum and turns it into a battlefield rather than an exercise in peaceful discussion and attempting to arrive at peaceful solutions that include the possibility of - gasp! - compromise or tolerance in working toward a common goal of peace on earth even when "agreeing to disagree" on major issues.

The bottom line is, this is a site dedicated to PEACE and SPIRIT, and those interested in pursuing such goals in the world. That doesn't mean universal agreement, but it DOES mean a joint commitment to peaceful, spiritual approaches to talking about world community issues ... and those who really aren't willing to join in the spirit of that approach really ARE in the wrong place. It's not about being pro-war or anti-war in the world ... there are lessons to be learned from every viewpoint about those issues ... but it IS about being "anti-war" HERE on these forums, because that's what they ARE and what they are FOR. They are forums for peaceful discussion and spiritual growth, and those who aren't able, willing or interested in supporting those purposes really are in the wrong place, both for their own sake and the sake of those who are.

So ... did that answer your questions?

Love,
Greg

If indeed you must be candid, be candid beautifully.
~Kahlil Gibran

Say not, 'I have found the truth,' but rather, 'I have found a truth.'
~Kahlil Gibran

In battling evil, excess is good; for he who is moderate in announcing the truth is presenting half-truth. He conceals the other half out of fear of the people's wrath.
~Kahlil Gibran, Thoughts and Meditations, 1960

I placed some of my fave quotes from Gibran first, in hopes that what I say will not be taken the wrong way.

First, I did notice, and this is simply my own 3rd party observation, that the more the discussion got heated, the more each party became inflamed in regard to their beliefs. It seemed each was speaking what they believed, some presented facts. The "facts" were ignored orcalled not so worthy regarding/depending where the source came from.

In defence of jwhop, he orignally came across as presenting information with humor, intelligence and wit. He ended up defending his beliefs with the passion of Leo. Leo stands for integrity, principles and truth. But, sometimes Leo gets dramatic and uses adjectives in the drama.

In defence of Greg, he took great pains to articulate and explain with much love, balance and spirituality in the beginning. I think Skydancer pointed out the rest much better than I can.

Somewhere along the way, signals got crossed and no one was hearing the other. That is when it got bad.

There is a lot of partisan thought here, truly, whether one wants to believe it or not and as much as Greg has asked it to not be partison type, it is. Not necessarily from jwhop or Greg, either. It is very difficult to keep it from being non partison, we have two major parties in our country, therein lies the problem. The news media keeps it that way, all you hear is what the Democrats say or whatthe Republicans say. It is the Conservatives against the Liberals or vice versa. A lot of people on the right feel people on the left have "anti American" ideals and again, vice versa. I know, because I read both Republican and Democrat forums on the net, just so I can get the view all around.

Peggy, you got me thinking on the Essenes and their communal living. I like to think of them and families as communalists, the word just sits better with me. Growing up where Communist was not a happy word, regardless of the ideal set up by Karl Marx and Frederich Engels in their Communist Manifesto, it was good in theory, not in practice.

Also, the Random House College Dictionary defines "communist" in their fourth definition as meaning in the "U.S. (loosely)" "a person who is regarded as supporting politically, leftist or subversive causes".

So, I just wanted to add my thoughts and leave it with a great saying from Bob Marley.

We should really love each other in peace and harmony, instead we're fussin' n fighting like we ain't supposed to be.
~Bob Marley


Donna

PS, Cat, I had the same thoughts about the astrology of it all.

Well, although this is a thread that I would not have expected much beyond contention and argument from, considering the reason it was started, perhaps some useful insights have emerged. Thank you all for your input and observations.

Donna, thank you for your usual balanced and loving perspective, much of which I agree with. I certainly agree that jwhop, more earlier in the discussions than later, presented his viewpoints with humor, intelligence and wit. That's exactly why, when things got to the breaking point, I extended an open invitation for him to return if he'd simply agree to stop the name calling and insults, because I did genuinely value his intelligent presentation and the strength and clarity of his viewpoint. Those qualities are essential to discussing any issues, especially controversial ones, and if he never returns that will represent a true loss to our community (I speak only for myself, of course. )

You are also correct that at some point along the way I stopped taking great pains to articulate and explain with balance, love and spirituality. By way of explanation rather than justification, the reason for that is that I began to perceive that my explanations were largely ignored, so why waste the effort? I belong to the "old school" of discussion, in which a conversation consists of people exchanging information and viewpoints, with each party both listening and responding in roughly equal measure ... as distinct from simply "taking turns" presenting their own viewpoints. A conversation to me is a relationship between two or more individuals following a common thread, in which each contribution builds upon the preceding contributions, whether affirming, refuting, amplifying or offering alternative interpretations. On a number of occasions I spent literally hours researching and replying to a point jwhop had made or a question he'd raised ... and felt very let down when he completely ignored my contribution and went on to some other point; and the letdown turned to anger when days or weeks later he would make the same point again, frequently with the assertion that "nobody has been able to answer this point." I'd reiterate my response or point him to it on an earlier thread and again receive no response, then again hear days later that "no one has been able to show any evidence whatsoever" about the same thing. That's not fair pool in my book, and after several repetitions of that pattern I simply lost interest in carefully researching and explaining. Why waste the time carefully explaining something that's going to be ignored?

And yes I did "cop an attitude" about it. Rightly or wrongly, I perceived that jwhop was presenting himself as a fair-minded seeker of truth demanding authoritative sources or sound reasoning to back up any assertion, while in actuality refusing to acknowledge any such evidence or reasoning ... either by ignoring it as if it had not been said, or by dismissing it as unworthy of comment or consideration because it came from a "liberal" source ... which dismissable sources came to include mainstream media, legal experts, respected scholars and authors, basically anyone whose testimony failed to support jwhop's own assertions and viewpoints. And in dismissing them he did so not with reasoned explanations for their unreliability, but with pejoritive appellations like "ignorant media airheads who know nothing about what they report," or "communist sympathizers," "treasonous Americ-hating liberals," or worst of all, "Democrats" or "Clinton supporters."

In short, I stopped believing in his integrity. Not his integrity to his own beliefs, which I don't question at all, but his integrity in discussion technique. I saw him as CLAIMING to be swayed only by objective facts and sound reasoning, but in actuality selectively accepting as "fact" whatever supported his own position and freely dismissing, attacking or ignoring all else. With this perception I lost my belief that he was interested in genuine truth-seeking discussion, and with it my motivation to explain things clearly and patiently, and instead focused on "calling him" on his own biased assertions.

That was a major error on my part. I should have called out the issue clearly at that point and simply refused to continue discussing on those terms. Instead I avoided the issue and continued the discussion as a disjointed dialog taking turns "scoring points" while attempting to suppress, with increasing lack of success, my own resentment. I apologize to all, including jwhop, for that. It was the wrong way to handle the situation.

None of us has "THE TRUTH" about any of this, though I believe we all have valuable pieces of the puzzle. But I do earnestly believe we can, as a group, help each other to arrive at better understandings by sharing and honest dialog, even debate. Even more, by being interested and willing to actually UNDERSTAND where the other is coming from rather than being only concerned with denying the validity of their differing viewpoints, I believe we can arrive at some degree of compassionate tolerance even while remaining firmly convinced the other is mistaken ... and to my mind that is a HUGE step forward for heightened consciousness and the eventual possibility of true peace. But to do that we have to actually have conversations with each other. We have to listen to each other, and follow threads of thought through consistently, rather than dropping them when they are not leading in a direction that supports our views. We need to be honest enough to say "good point" when someone makes an observation that we have no rebuttal for, and that will occur for ALL of us ... there's not a one of us here who is omniscient and infallible, no matter how fervently certain we are of our own perceptions and conclusions. And it most certainly means foregoing hostility and attack in favor of friendly and respectful disagreement.

And jwhop, if you should happen to be reading this, I am asking you to return to our forums and resume our conversations from a point of mutual respect ... if you are willing and interested.

Love,
Greg

Good quotes, Donna.

I like Chahlie's quote:

"Say what you mean, but don't say it mean." Is that still going to be our slogan here, Greg?

Love, Connie

Hmmm...

Hi Greg, Howz it going?

All you said in your post might be true, but if so, I somehow missed the significance of the element of man-to-man tussling in what just happened.

When I came back onsite that day and saw that jwhop had responded individually to several of us and that you two had had that final exchange, I read the whole thread through again to try to understand how it had gotten to that point.

And the thing that occurred to me, which no one has brought up...

I thought you drew the line with jwhop because the sight of him jumping directly, ferociously into the face of the very-very-pregnant-and-about-to-pop, kind and loving and giving pregnant lady in a town where even SARS scares have contributed to the need for abundant gentleness and care that is axiomatically NEEDED by that person at that point in time...and this is Terri, who had already clearly SIGNALED loudly in her first post in reply to jwhop that she found his post distressing...and he came back and jumped directly into her face...

was just too damn much for the gentleman in you to see without stepping in and providing decisively effective defense.

People, we know a little bit about each other here. We know when we're being vicious to someone at a point in time when our human love is needed.

My own personal opinion is, if you come back, jwhop, don't be such an impersonal bulldozer. You knew Terri's personal circumstances. You've been on the threads.

And Joyce? Why are you being so nasty?

I'm all for peace and love.

And clarity.

What a world.

Maria