Greg You're a good man, I think you have put your heart and soul into this place.

I love the header you have at the beginning of World Community.--

"Discussion about current political and social issues seen through the lens of astrology and spirit. "You can say what you mean, but don't say it mean." "

And Connie just pointed it out, right after I copied and pasted it to use for a reply.

Connie, thanks, yeah, I sorta like Kahlil Gibran a lot.

Hi Joyce, I miss jwhop, too, just wanted to tell you so.

Donna

Thanks Greg,
that was really nice.

Actually thanks to Joyce for starting this thread and Donna, too for her beautiful post.

Fire understands Fire... Jwhop would never apologize because he did not do anything wrong.

He's proud of what he is and proud of what he's saying.

He's a Leo!

We Leos are very confident and sometimes very loud!

We like to take a center stage and to be recognized for our achievements and our qualities. We have a huge Ego!

We view life from a slightly elevated perspective...
Our heads are always held high.. etc.etc.

That's what I said once before, all the members here, we have different styles of expression, and a little bit of shouting doesn't mean that Leos or Aries people are disrespectful to anyone... wrong!

Elevated speech and views that's us Leos!!!

Jwhop, hope you're coming back to the site!!!!

Love
El

Donna, in case you missed it earlier, the "Say what you mean but don't say it mean" part of that blurb was Chahles' contribution, which I lifted from a thread of his not long ago.

And you bet, Connie, that is definitely still our motto!

Maria, you do know me. Actually your assessment of what happened on that watershed thread (War Protesters, Take a Bow) was pretty accurate. I can't stand injustice, especially injustice directed toward those in a vulnerable position. Seeing that thread started on such an illogical premise (the war protesters are responsible for the bloodshed of the war they tried to stop), but more importantly started for no informational purpose whatsoever, but purely to attack and express anger and blame at those who opposed the war, pissed me off, and clearly had its intended effect on a number of others who felt attacked and said so. But the mean responses to those who complained, especially to Terri, actually put me into a rage, and that's what broke the camel's back at that point.

The Virgo analysis above was the result of my own soul-searching about the whole course of events and deterioration of the productive discussions about these issues ... because regardless of justification, the fact is that I was operating out of anger toward jwhop rather than even-tempered discussion, and realized that that anger was not a new thing but had building up over a period of time. Since one of the main things I've been trying to get across here recently is that it's possible and desirable to discuss disagreements, even major disagreements, in a friendly manner rather than coming from a place of hostility and anger, I felt like it was important for me to understand how I had gotten to that place myself with jwhop ... especially since, as Donna had pointed out, that had evolved over time from a place where I really did respect and value jwhop's contributions (although I always disagreed with many of them), because he was able and willing to carry on an intelligent debate that allowed many of the real and important issues to be fleshed out and examined from alternative viewpoints in a way that is not widely available in most of the media, almost all of which is presented from a particular slant or spin these days.

We always tend to see most clearly the faults of others that we do not so readily see in ourselves, so when I realized that over time my approach toward discussion with jwhop HAD changed from one of eagerness to jointly examine important issues from different viewpoints to one of feeling really angry and contentious toward him, I felt it was important to understand that transition for my own benefit, and to share it openly with others.

Love,
Greg

You know, El. I have a leo rising. I can be a beast too. But I'm working on it. Humility is one of the virtues in every system of spiritual thought I've ever run across. We've all been sold such a bill of goods in this day and age about puffing up our own self-esteem, and never mind any0ne else's heart.

I've sat here over the last several weeks and watched Connie and Greg humble themselves in self-analysis in an effort to once again find their love for you guys who tromp through here telling us we're assholes, and I haven't seen any glimmer of self-awareness developing on the other "side."

Yeah, you tough. You mean. Whoopie.

Maria

I wasn't going to say anything here but since you touched on my thoughts in your reply, Greg I will say what I was thinking. First though I would like to say that Greg began this site for the intentions he explained above. Greg pays the server to keep this site running and he pays with his own money. He does not charge us a membership fee to be a part of this community. When Greg began the site he laid out the ground rules concerning our conduct. He does not toss anyone out of here without first being fair and giving them more than one warning concerning their conduct. Even when he does toss them he allows them to come back if they are willing to comply to the rules of conduct at the site. He did that with jwhop. Now it's up to jwhop to decide. Greg made his decision, he has explained why he made that decision over and over again. So let it drop. Cut him some slack and stop trying to brow beat him into changing his mind. It's up to jwhop and jwhop is a grown man. He can make his own decisions.

Now to get on to what I wanted to say. Of course there are those here who will say this is preaching and being self-righteous but it is not intended that way at all. Having said that, if you take it that way it is your perception and has no basis in fact or truth. It is just my thoughts and opinions on what is happening around here.

Lets just pretend for a minute that we really are a spiritual community here. Let's just pretend for a minute or two that we really are all Children of God and that we are one with each other and all of creation. If we all did that we would not be looking at each other as rivals, we would not be competing with each other, we would not be comparing ourselves with anyone else, we would not need to come out the winner in our dealings with other people, we would not be judgmental, condemning and accusing of each other. We would not feel the need to have everyone agree with our thinking and our feelings. That kind of stuff comes from the ego. It comes from an ego that feels the need to control everything and everyone. It comes from an ego that has to be the winner and come out on top. It comes from an ego that has to be right. It comes from an ego that needs power and control over others. It comes from a very insecure ego. When that kind of ego meets with resistance, and it always will because no one wants to be controlled, it reacts in anger, hatred and temper tantrums. Just like a small child who is not getting their way.

If we are truly trying to be better people we have to be tolerant of the differences in each other and the faults and shortcomings we all have. I have lots of faults and I admit that. Let's be honest. None of us are saints, none of us are holy, none of us are perfect. We are only working on being those things. Hopefully. Since we are all imperfect we should be more compassionate with each other, more understanding, more gentle and loving with each other. I admit I have not always done that. I fall short of the mark many times. We all do. It does not take anything away from us to admit when we are wrong and tell those we have offended we are sorry. In fact we benefit from it because we learn humility and we grow spiritually.

We have to start practicing that sometime and somewhere. This is a good time and good place to do it. If we practice it often enough it becomes a habit. We are questioning and discussing things here. We should be able to disagree without attacks. Instead of pointing out the faults in others we should be addressing the faults we have and working on those. Though I can tell you it is easier for me to see all of your faults than my own. The only way we can see our faults is to ask ourselves where we were wrong when we see the problems we are having in our relationships with others. And realize that it is not what others say and do so much as how we perceive it. We are all guilty in our perceptions.

I feel that Joyce, jwhop and El all feel that if someone disagrees with their thinking and their opinions concerning things that is telling them they are wrong. It's not. It's just saying well, I don't see it that way, this is the way I see it. There is no right and wrong. But if we are forming our conscience and our thoughts based on just part of all the information, we are denying ourselves growth. There is no danger or threat in looking at all the information that is presented, hearing all the different viewpoints of others. We will either accept it or not. But to not look at all and to refuse to even hear something contrary to your opinions is cheating yourself of growth. The saying is that the mind is like a parachute. It doesn't function unless it is open.

All of us here at this site come from different backgrounds, nationalities, religions and beliefs. We all have different life styles. That makes for a great learning environment if we listen to each other. I'm sorry but I find it difficult to listen to anyone who is shouting me down and telling me I am wrong and calling me names every time I open my mouth. I think everyone feels that way. Doing that is an attempt to control and no one is going to control me. I have no desire to control anyone else so I sure as hell am not going to let anyone control me. When you attack someone it is only normal for them to get defensive. And sometimes strike back. That is how all wars are born. War is born in the evil of mens (and womens) hearts.

There is a difference in disagreeing and being disagreeable. Using your sun sign as a justification for attacking people just doesn't wash. There is no excuse for attacking and calling other people names. There is no excuse for treating other people badly. One of the characteristics of a spiritual person, or anyone working towards becoming more spiritual is humility. Humility is the opposite of pride. So Leo folk, or any other sun sign for that matter, if they truly are here at this site with the intention of becoming more spiritual , instead of using the Leo pride as a reason to try and control the thoughts and opinions or others, or as an excuse and justification for their bad behavior towards others, should instead try swallowing some of that pride and learn humility. Jwhop, El and Joyce owe this whole community an apology for their personal attacks on everyone here who dares to disagree with their position on this war and George W. Bush. Greg has apologized when he got angry and said harsh things, if you go look back in the threads, I have also apologized. Prox has apologized on more than one occasion as well. We have admitted when we were wrong. I have yet to hear Joyce, El or Jwhop apologize or admit that they just might be wrong. They need to keep in mind that where our noses begin, their rights end.

Love, Connie

About Leos.....I used to have a really close friend who was a Leo. Smart guy - probably the smartest I have ever known. Proud. Hugely talented. Assertive. Occaisionally arrogant, or at least perceived that way. Just damned good at everything he did. He would be appalled at the type of behavoiur displayed here. Totally lacking in grace and manners, not very "king" like at all.

IMHO, of course!

Love,
Terri

Hi everyone. I'm trying to minimize the amount of input I add to these threads, as I think it's pretty pointless to keep going around in circles. But, I will add my thoughts and then sit back and relax.

Connie, you made great points about spirituality and striving towards a high conscience. I am all for that.

Greg, I'm not going to ask you again to change your mind. You're the boss and the decision is made. It's really not up for debate.

I will say one thing, though. Isn't part of being spiritual the ability to focus on yourself and not be concerned with another person's hurtful words and actions? I know, most of us are reactive. Someone is mean to us and we fight back. But, at some point don't you sit back and realize that it's not worth the effort? I mean, so what if jwhop called people names and stomped around like a bull in a china shop?! The easy answer is to just not respond to him or read his posts.

I am certainly guilty of letting people push my buttons. But, this is an online forum. Most of us don't know each other from the next person on the street and will never speak or meet in person. Who cares what someone here says?

It's too bad we don't have an option to just ignore certain users on the site. I've used that on other message boards and it's a great feature. But, most of us are adults. Let's act like it.

We can call each other names or sit down and cry because someone said "Your mama..something...something...something." Jwhop may have been argumentative person, but, in my opinion, being overly sensitive is an equally negative quality and just as disruptive to open communication and understanding.

Anyway, that's my not-so-humble opinion. Not meant to hurt anyone's feelings or point fingers. Simply how I feel. And if someone feels bad about THAT, then they can deal with it.

As I tell my boys at the crisis center..."Focus on yourself."

OOH, I just had to point out that my post went up at 11:11.

Greg, and Everyone

Heated arguments, anger and the urge and possibility to strike back in thought and words is not un-natural for this to happen in threads that discusses world events and politics. As I have noticed many here feels passionately about what they believe (heart and mind) and their loyalty to the group they belong to or believed in. I've notice that in threads that has the suggestibility for heated discussion, which are what seems to be mostly posted in the "World Commutiy" thread, those behaviors occured to the point that you can almost imagine that if it's in real life a brawl would have had started. Most of the threads started here does have suggestive contents that does invite both conflicting and agreeable responses. Here, we have the luxury of words that can be manipulated with powerful descriptive adjectives enough to satisfy the heated passion to express anger and contempt. Thank God, this thread areas aren't physical reality! Who knows what may occur. Of course with all these happening the aspects of squares, conjunctions and opposites of planets are playing it's role and the trines and sextiles are protective towards its group. The stress of the world events affecting all of us doesn't help either. What I am trying to say is with all these that are happening, the heated passions of the discussions has risen so high to its peak, then gradually levels back down to a more even level, where I think the point may have been understood and taken, and then it's back up again and down again. It's an exchange of the SELF. Then SELF is not satisfied and needs to vent, threads getting too long and old, started a new one. And it starts all over again and it will as long as we have a discussion area like this that can spark passion that can bring the good and the worse from anyone. Isn't bringing the good out from the worse in us is what evolution is all about? Isn't that what we are trying to master? Stopping someone before he or she can even begin to evolve doesn't help that person. It doesn't happen overnight. Peace and harmony is not achieved unless a turmoil happens for peace and harmony to have its time to take place. When it does, we may have mastered all. Greg, I agree with you, blaming and personal attack doesn't solve anything, and reacting to it doesn't either. When we don't let such blaming and attack affect us, I don't mean ignoring because it only builds up pent up emotions, I mean be UNaffected, then we won't be. When one gives a point of view and opinion, FINE, let it be their view and opinion, we have our own. Let us respect the fact that it's their opinion and we can express ours, without the expectation that we can change theirs and for the other not to expect that they can change ours either. And when our view does change, it's because we accepted their point of view. And that's when peace and harmony begins. Love and Peace to you all!

Cristina, I think you write beautifully

For some reason the immortal words of the Beatles popped into my head, while I was thinking about this discussion.


LET IT BE

When I find myself in times of trouble
Mother Mary comes to me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be.
And in my hour of darkness
She is standing right in front of me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be.
Let it be, let it be.
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.

And when the broken hearted people
Living in the world agree,
There will be an answer, let it be.
For though they may be parted there is
Still a chance that they will see
There will be an answer, let it be.
Let it be, let it be. Yeah
There will be an answer, let it be.

And when the night is cloudy,
There is still a light that shines on me,
Shine on until tomorrow, let it be.
I wake up to the sound of music
Mother Mary comes to me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be.
Let it be, let it be.
There will be an answer, let it be.
Let it be, let it be,
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.

Well, Maria and Connie,

I'm definitely not going to defend Leos, that was not even the purpose of my last post.I was just trying to thank Greg in my own way for his sense of fair play, after all.

You should all read (again) Linda Goodman's Sun Signs and maybe you would understand what I was saying about the DIFFERENT STYLES OF EXPRESSION.

Nobody here is going to preach to me about my own spirituality or expect an apology from me? Excuse me, for what???
For having different opinions and expressing them???

I have seen a lot of negativity from you guys, why do you expect only jwhop, Joyce and me to suddenly become humble and apologize to you ... weird...

I respect Greg for his trying to be always fair and cool. And he's not a preacher like some other people on the site.

Terri, insults don't really work.. as you know already.

Christina and Skydancer, thanks!


El

Look who's talking Maria!!

Give it a rest for crying outloud.

I have sat here and watch you hammer away also.
You are so hypocritical.

Oh and the snide sarcastic remarks : "Yeah, you tough. You mean. Whoopie."



and QUIT SENDING ME THOSE NASTY FOUL LANGUAGE EMAILS ALREADY!!!!

Hi Sky,

I've been trying to minimize my input too. However, I do strongly disagree with a number of your points. If expecting a brash guy like jwhop not to spit in the face of a nine-months-pregnant woman in an online spiritual discussion forum is being too sensitive, then God help us all, or in fact, just forget it, we're beyond help.

Secondly, many of us here have met others of us in person. Some of us have spoken to each other on the telephone. I hope to meet more of the knowflakes in real life. On my writers' board, everybody on there has met at least two or three of the others. When we take vacations, we look each other up. Internet community doesn't have to mean the brawling place for couch potatoes who imagine themselves street-brawlers.

I thought jwhop's reply to me in that original thread was fine, and of the same tenor as my reply to him. We're wry with each other, tolerate each other's opinions, keep our distance, joke with each other when we're able. No problem. Works for me.

But if we don't treat each other decently here, it's as Greg says. There's no reason for him to keep this place open.

And El, in the last few weeks, as part of the jwhop Conscious Evolution Destructo Team, has gone after every perceived slight bit of vulnerability and heart that she is able to perceive in Connie with a switchblade.

And I'm going to use that not-relative word. It's wrong.

Maria

Ahhh, our Man of a Thousand Faces. I haven't sent you an e-mail in a very long time. You have my word there will never be another.

Maria

Ahhh our Woman of duplicity. Don't do me any favors. At least I don't have to read your nasty backbiting regarding Lis and Aries. Your word? Yeah right.

Like a "bad penny" isn't it, Maria?

I knew you'd been spying on my writers' board, where we were joking about the bad penny. It's part of your obsession with me, your undying love, your "special" feeling for me. Yes, show yourself for what you are. And take a look at it.

Aries and Lis and I have had our spats. And I mentioned my pain over it to my friends, whom you pretended to be one of, just as they mentioned their feelings about it to their friends.

Go ahead, please. Show yourself for exactly how you are, Sabra.

Maria

El,

No apology is needed for expressing a different opinion. But an apology is needed for personal attacks. That is just not good behaviour in a civilized society. Greg has apologized, I have apologized, Prox has apologized. Terri has apologized. I stated that. Anyone can go back through the threads and see that. When we apologized we did our part. It is up to the others to accept that apology or not. If they do, great. Peace is restored. If not then that is their choice. I also stated that we are not without fault and that I have lots of faults. So yes, we have said negative things at times. We are all only human. But we apologized. That's the difference. I was not demanding an apology, El nor do I expect one. That's up to you, jwhop and Joyce. It would be nice though and restore a civility around here.

A person can be too much of many things. However, a person can never be too sensitive. In fact, the world could use a whole lot more of that.

In reply to:

Nobody here is going to preach to me about my own spirituality or expect an apology from me? Excuse me, for what???
For having different opinions and expressing them???

No, not for having different opinions and expressing them. For personally attacking people and calling them names. For Joyce posting this type of thread and for jwhop posting his thread as Greg said, not for the purpose of discussion, but for the sheer purpose of personally attacking the other members of this community. That is not the way that adults should conduct themselves anywhere in the world, even on the internet. While this may be the internet, those are real human beings behind that screen who deserve to be treated respectfully.

If the topics we discuss here upset and bother people to the point that they feel they have to attack people and call them names, then they should avoid this area of CE as Greg stated in the beginning.

And you are very correct El, insults don't work. That's the whole point.

Love, Connie

Writeon,

I didn't see jwhop's last post but I thoht your post about the PG cop out was one of the most sexist things I've seen in print in years.

You have a way with words Writeon, and they are extermely irritatiing at times.

Terri is no saint and she has been called many times on her bitter bite and she knows she's got one. Are you guys saying it's pre-lung juice? That's worst than the Sun Sign cop out.

I think Greg deserves a lot more from you guys than this shit. Making him feel guilty or sad is even worst than the PG shield.

And we have all seen Greg's male tendency to favor the woamn. It's natureal and why GI Janes are bad for war. They get men killed.

So as long as we are warring lets flush equality of the sexes down the toilet too.
Or maybe one needs to be over thirteen and not Pregant to post.

Typically El, you rushed right ahead and threw out the baby with the bath water, as they say.

If you read my post again you'll notice that I said way way more good stuff about Leo's than anything negitive. I am NOT sorry for remarking that the recent Leo behaviour here has been anything but the kingly manner I had come to associate with Leo's, based on my friendship with the other Leo. He truely never would have ever descended to the type of dirty pool and personal attacks being practiced here. He could state his opinions very strongly, but certainly respectfully too. Astrology is NEVER an acceptable excuse for bad manners. If you were insulted by my remarks than maybe that means it hit something in you that you know you should change?

Love,
Terri

Thanks for the advice, Prox. I think that in any type of community people should be conscious of and give healing supporting love towards people experiencing special circumstances. It's a lot of what this community is supposed to be about. I won't let a big kid beat up a little kid at the park either.

Apparently we have a difference of opinion.

Maria

OK - and since everyone is talking about me, I might as well say my piece

Firstly, I do recollect not very long ago being called a "punk" by someone who really ought to have known better - but regardless, there was some truth to that statement. He just flattered me yet again by reminding us all that I have my own big bite. Fair enough. And that's true too, if I had really wanted to call Jwhop out in any type of personal bashing I would have, pregnant or not. Out of respect for the rules of the site, and my own desire to not get embroiled in a heated emotional discussion leading nowhere on the eve of my baby's birth I decided to ignore his self-righteous and hate-filled comments instead.

Having said that, I AM grateful to see that others here cared enough to put themselves on the line on my own behalf. Necessary or not, it's nice to know that chivalry isn't quite dead (and that's not a sexist statement, since I am including Maria's thoughfulness on my behalf in my defination of chivalrous actions).

I think that's one of the broader aims of this community isn't it? To foster a place where people DO care about each other, and interact from that level. Maria and I could disagree about stuff till the cows come home, and we have at times, and it doens't erode the fact that I love and respect her. It certainly means I am more open to hearing what she says, and am more disposed to really listen to the message behind her words. But when someone else is just spitting venom in my face, day in day out, with no emotional connection save the highly negative energy of combatent, well than at some point you have to wonder, why on earth are they even hanging out a site that emphasizes the spiritual goal of oneness over the dividing energy of competition? None of here are finished works, but most of us here would acknowledge our faults and most of us here are working on evolving ourselves to the point where we can learn to rise above them. EVOLUTION is the key word - we are striving to be more than we are today and to look at new models for making our world work. It shouldn't be surprising than, that so many people here have an anti-war view, which in my mind is part of the violent legacy of the past, and has never lead to anything other than MORE war. Part of my view of an evolved world (ever noticed EVOLVED containes the word LOVED?) is that war and violence do not exisit. And in my mind there's only one way to get there from here, and that's to just start acting like we mean it! These discussions are tremendously useful in that respect, in so far as they can model to us ways to disagree without beign disagreeable and to learn to compromise and be tolerant etc. That type of interaction is harder to acheive when people are more intertested in being right, than being kind.

Anyway, like all families we are having a ittle bit of a tussle right now. We'll smooth it over and move on, soon I hope - because I really hate seeing our collective problem-solving and learning energy sideswiped by personality clashes and ill will.

Love Ya All - even the Leo's

Terri

BTW - Darwin - what did I ever do to you to deserve all the recent name calling? It actually really hurts, no matter how much of a hard-ass you seem to think I am.

Love,
Terri

Your Welcome.

I agree about support but from my perpective woman's ideas of support often get blended in with their ideals of spritualality and conflict with the ideal way of addressing the spritual side of things.
Group talk and nice buzzy chatter sessions are not what makes one spritual.

And guys just feel that stuff is foreign.

Maybe some of the more personal chats could go off online so I can retrain my gag reflex.

And from a Biblical view the man is supposed to be the head od the spritual life of a family. That's because if we left it up to the woman, well, they just want to have fun, spend money, and tear each other to shreds.

OK -HERE COMES THE PUNK KIDS BITE!

Darwin - I am F-ing SICK of your sanctimonious preaching about what IS and what ISN'T spiritual. Who do you think you are anyway?!?!?!?! I can respect that men and women need differnt things, and communicate in different ways - but I refuse to respect that YOU AND ONLY YOU can define what is godly or not.

HYPOCRITE!!! No where in any version of any bible is an allowance for an opininated old goat to insult and degrade people at will, and then tell them what is spiritual.

You just deal with your own moat please, and leave the specks alone.

Terri

PS - And as for tearing people to shreads...again, HYPOCRITE!!!!