Thread getting too long.

Hi El -

Well, I started this post - and I'm glad to see the group hugging. But, JWhop still got banned, and he isn't in on it. He got tossed; I didn't. JWhop basically got tossed for expressing his views. Lots of people say nasty things to each other - as demonstrated on this thread. They are all still here. Maybe I didn't get tossed cause I am female. Who knows?

See - JWhop, El, and I have a sense of self and pride. In fact, these qualities are frowned upon here. There is so much talk in these forums about supressing the ego and working for the common good. We should all have the same amount. The US is hated because we have more stuff. And then, it isn't fair cause some people in the US have more stuff than others. And, no one should be liking "stuff" any way. Okay. What should we do? Divide up all of the "stuff" around the world? Take some of the stuff away from some and give it to others - to be fair? So, the people who work hard and actually accomplish things end up doing all of the work. They work for the "common good". Then, they finally figure out ... why should we do all of the work? So they stop doing all of the work. Nothing gets done. Stagnation. There is no growth and no innovation. Society collapses on itself. This is called communism. It doesn't work. People are not truly altruistic by nature. The concept of ego, competition and pride is necessary. Truth of the matter, in communist countries, people are usually starving to death (while their leaders are living a lavish and posh lifestyle). North Korea is an example of this. Irag another. Cuba - people are starving, Castro isn't living the same high hog lifestyle of Saddasm - but is living a good life while his people are suffering. China has finally figured it out that it needs capitalism to make the economy work.

I love a leo - their sense of pride and accomplishment. These are the types who do well in a DEMOCRACY. JWhop, El and I have been grouped together. I am proud to be grouped with them!

We all seem to enjoy music here. The following is dedicated to el and jwhop:

GREATEST LOVE OF ALL
Whitney Houston
(Michael Masser & Linda Creed)

I believe the children are our are future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be
Everybody searching for a hero
People need someone to look up to
I never found anyone who fulfill my needs
A lonely place to be
So, I learned to depend on me

I decided long ago
Never to walk in anyone's shadows
If I fail, if I succeed
At least I'll live as I believe
No matter what they take from me
They can't take away my dignity
Because the greatest love of all
Is happening to me
I found the greatest love of all
Inside of me
The greatest love of all
Is easy to achieve
Learning to love yourself
It is the greatest love of all

I believe the children are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be

I decided long ago
Never to walk in anyone's shadows
If I fail, if I succeed
At least I'll live as I believe
No matter what they take from me
They can't take away my dignity
Because the greatest love of all
Is happening to me
I found the greatest love of all
Inside of me
The greatest love of all
Is easy to achieve
Learning to love yourself
It is the greatest love of all

And if by chance, that special place
That you've been dreaming of
Leads you to a lonely place
Find your strength in love

Love,
Joyce

Hi Joyce,

Jwhop got about twenty warnings, you haven't had so many. I don't want to ban anyone, I just want folks to be comfortable talking to each other, even when they fiercely disagree, without having to be called names and insulted and repeatedly told they are "anti-american" and "communist" and such ... really any time, but especially when they carefully explain how and why they love their country just as much as anyone, but have that completely ignored and still be called the same names. That's just not friendly discussion. We can have friendly discussion even when we COMPLETELY agree about politics or policies or practicaly anything else. That's really not an unreasonable policy.

Y'know, people keep saying jwhop was "tossed" from here ... in fact jwhop can come back anytime he likes, all he has to do is write me a message saying he won't attack and insult people in the future - the same thing EVERYONE is asked to do here, no more or less. I said that when I suspended his privileges and I've said it several times since ... and the last time I even asked him to come back. Haven't heard a word from him. So if jwhop is not here now, it's his own choosing. I can understand why he might not want to be ... I'd have second thoughts too if I were posting somewhere where practically everything most people there said made me furious and that seems to have been the case. Life's too short for continuous hard feelings, no matter what anybody's beliefs. So let's not keep beating that dead horse, okay?

Joyce, it seems like you have a lot of preconceived ideas about why folks here were opposed to the Iraqi war ... and what I hear you complaining about so much is those preconceived ideas, rather than what folks actually SAY they are opposed to. For example the bit above about

Quote:

---

The US is hated because we have more stuff. And then, it isn't fair cause some people in the US have more stuff than others. And, no one should be liking "stuff" any way.

---

Well yes, I've heard arguments like that ... but not HERE. Nobody's arguments here against the war or the current administration's policies have had anything to do with such sentiments. So why fight against straw dogs that you imagine peoples' opposition is about, rather than discussing, or even debating if you like (as long as it's friendly debate ), what folks ARE saying about their misgivings? Stuff like the very real risks of alienating our allies, of flouting and therefore undercutting international law, of the EXTREMELY high risk of de-stabilizing the middle east and plunging us into global conflict, the likelihood that US military conquest will serve as a catalyst for radicalizing and recruiting MORE terrorists and making the world (and the US) LESS safe from terrorism rather than MORE secure? And many others. These are all positions that are held by many intelligent, educated, reasonable people, and are disputed by other intelligent, educated, reasonable people. These and lots of other issues about the war and the now-official US policy of preventive war against any nations it perceives as capable of one day developing a threat, are all valid questions that affect us all, and they need to be discussed by folks with different viewpoints and different information. Public discussion of important issues of foreign policy is essential to democracy.

But if the discussion is all about how those who oppose Bush's policies are communists and America-haters, then we CAN'T have those discussions with valuable input and reasoning from both sides ... it gets halted in its tracks, and all that's possible is shouting matches about "you're unpatriotic" "no I'm not" "yes you are!"

You know?

Please, Joyce ... your views are important and worth being considered and discussed fully and openly, just like mine are or anyone else's here. But NOTHING is served by short-circuiting actual discussion - which REQUIRES at least a minimum of mutual respect and courtesy to occur at all - in favor of continuously venting and calling each other names. That's all.

With regard to your calling ME a communist in your last post on the other thread ... which I didn't respond to because it looked like you were long gone ... of course I don't like it that you would want to hurt me by calling names, but in terms of the actual accusation, calling me a "communist" would be really funny if it were not sad. If you remember anything about Ayn Rand, and recall that I was both a friend of hers and a strong enough admirer of her values to teach them, fight for them, and even name my children after the characters in her books , you cannot possibly consider me a communist. Although my values have evolved over the years (especially to encompass "spiritual" values that she considered irrational) my "core beliefs" about the political ideas she taught have not changed one iota ... and could scarcely be further from communism or anything resembling it.

I'm guessing that you really meant "communist" as a synonym for "anti-American" rather than its actual meaning as a political system, but I'm not that either. I truly and earnestly invite you to try to understand my patriotism, whether you agree with it or not ... because believe it or not it IS there and fiercely strong. It will not undermine your faith in Bush or his policies to understand a love of country that does NOT support them. Understanding another is never a threat to your own firm beliefs, and you don't have to make me an enemy to disagree with me. Up to you whether that's worth the effort or not, of course.

Love,
Greg

joy,

you go woman, my aries sister! i do not agree with all you say, but hey i love reading your posts.

"Lots of people say nasty things to each other - as demonstrated on this thread."

i see that too. it's human nature to cross wires in the broadest sense, to misinterpret, get emotional, take stuff personally. etc. it's just roman letters typed on a computer screen and people interpret things they way they see fit from what their years of development and whatever schooling they choose to embrace---in the broadest sense, both negative and positive.

yet, within this human sphere of personal worlds, people choose their own structures and who they want to embrace. this is afterall, greg's site. his money, property, rules, software, time etc. his choice of who he wants to admit to this place. granted, there are set "universal" policies he would like everyone to abide by, and if a member does not choose to go by it, so be it. nothing wrong with that, it is established certain "styles" of postings are not welcome here, and we both know it's not a free speech site anyway. now, i don't know what to say about that---it's just how it is and was already set up here before we became members. even with set universal principles, everybody has got their own interpretation of it. jwhop, you, me, etc. etc. "certain behaviors" have already been ear marked for removal or deletion. so if anything i write resembles, say an Ace Yellow posting, off it goes with an Edited by Gregory on so and so date at the bottom. hehe

i don't quite know where i'm getting at. i believe i am saying, "it is what it is," along with the message of "like it or leave it" personal interpretation of mine with this site. which is all cool since it's clearly laid out so i can bounce and stop posting for a while whenever i don't feel like being respectful according to this methodology. just being frank and human and totally know i'm not 100% in lock step with what's said. which is cool with greg, as i believe he has said everybody has got their own thoughts, just post them in the general style he has laid out. if i don't want to, i abstain.

i don't think i have read anywhere what jwhop thought of the policies. i have read people telling him stuff, but not what he thought of it. hmm.

*hugs to you*




amy

Hi, Amy, my Aries sister! -



My lunch hour is about up. Just want you to know your words make a lot of sense. Just go with the flow - back off when I know my opinions will cause an uproar. You are correct. This site is private property. Greg can make the rules. If I remember correctly, don't you have saturn in Aries?

BTW - Aren't you in San Francisco? My Aries daughter is going to be attending UCSF in the fall. Do you like living there?

So, Greg, I'll try to keep it light in the future - if I post much. I remember you posting somewhere that this is an "anti-war" site. I'll try to keep my thoughts more to myself.

Love,
Joyce

There are people here at this site who put in very meaningful and spiritual threads which hardly get replies. Then people reply to garbage like this, which is posted merely to feed Joyce's ego and cause dissention. Most of the nasty "stuff" that has been in these threads by others, if you go back and read them objectively, Amy, have been an angry response to the insults thrown at them by Joyce, El and jwhop. No one started those disagreements except for the three people mentioned above. I agree, that responding in anger with insults only serves to keep the argument going and does not make it right of any of us who responded in like manner. It is, however, human nature to do that in self-defense. None of us here are perferct. We are not finished products spiritually. However, most of us here are making attempts to become better human beings and therefore, help to create a better world with love and peace.

All I can say is that it seems obvious to me that Joyce is lacking attention in her offline life so she seeks to fulfill her need for attention online by resorting to tactics like this in order to get the attention she obviously needs. It is pointless to explain yourself and your viewpoints to her because she is not interested in other people enough to hear them. Her only concern is with herself. If she has nothing to contribute to a spiritual site except dissention for the sole purpose of feeding her ego and getting the attention she appears to be lacking in her life, and if she is not interested enough in other people to hear their viewpoints that are contrary to hers, she needs to go to another site. My suggestion would be the Young Republicans site.

Seek psychological help for your problems, Joyce or go sign up for the Jerry Springer show and give us a break. Because personally I am fed up with your whining and theatrics. You are at the wrong site for this garbage.

I am sorry for your sake, Greg. But it appears that while the rest of us have resolved this and would like to move on to really important discussions, Joyce is going to keep it up due to her need for attention. I hate to be the one who has to tell her, but she is not, in fact, the center of the universe. God is. Don't bother responding, Joyce because I am not interested in anything you have to say either. Because it will amount to " but enough about me, what do you think of me?" type of BS anyway.

Love, Connie

hi joy

hey cool, you like my post!

my saturn is in virgo, the virgin

yes, i live in san francisco. i love it here!!!



amy

Moonflower -

If you think my take on the meaning of communism is "bargage", then you are obviously living in the wrong country. I know you are fragile, Connie, and I try - as best I can - to not get you upset.


Joyce

hi connie,

the past is gone. poof ! nobody can go back and change that. we are empowered to start anew. (no pun intended, just came out that way).

joy has interesting thoughts on capitalism on this thread, and i'd like to read more when she gets time to post them. her ideas aren't garbage to me, i welcome them.

to each their own on perfection and spirituality. you got yours and we all got ours. desire and embrace is elective.



amy

Amy!

Hey! I also have saturn in Virgo!

And, I have been secretly admiring many of your posts - you've got your "act" together!

So, I'll keep you posted on Julie. Hope she likes it in SF. Don't you have a cat? Her cat, Bella, has been living illegally with her - in her dorm - for the past 3 years. Gotta figure out how to best get Bella to SF.


Love to you,
Joyce

Hi Joyce,

I am glad to see you. I want to agree that self-interest is important in the political arrangements, social arrangements, social contracts, however you want to conceptualize the way that people arrange themselves in societies and body politics.

Humans -- living in villages since 8000 B.C. There must be something about the mutuality of self-interest and communal interest, I think. Or maybe it's just that the world is too small for us all to have our own island.

I really do wish we could overcome Cain & Able or whatever ancient tale about brother killing brother (or sister, sister) carries the meaning of that whole tragic side of the human condition.

I had a friend who used to hold forth regularly on the idea that the perfectability of the human soul was impossible, and that major questions turned on whether one accepted the reality that such was impossible. I had no idea why it seemed so vital to him to convey the point, as it was a point on which I had no opinion whatsoever. But I guess his point was that I should have an opinion on the matter, as further huge questions would turn on it.

He was kind of a shy person, other than that topic.

I'm one of those "dewy-eyed dopes" who believes in miracles like the Cinderella song goes. I'm still not sure about the perfectability of the human soul, although I probably haven't met any perfect human souls yet, so I'm a little doubtful.

So, as I see it, we've got the natural self-interest that is creational and preservative, we make things for the love of creating and we watch out for self-preservation. Then we've got the social side that is procreational and preservative and encompasses a myriad of linkages for different reasons of emotion, intellectual stimulation, material support (as in trade). And then we've also got the mark of Cain.

And this is how we are. And these kinds of thoughts may not seem strictly "political" to you. But it is concerns like these that come into play for me when I try to understand systems and societies and courses of action. I like the first two elements -- self-interest and communal formation. Our Cain & Able side scares the life right out of me.

I hope this wasn't too irritating a post. I just wanted to talk with you.

Maria

Hi all, Peggy posted a response to Joyce's last message on the old thread (which is really the same as the first post on this thread), so I thought I'd copy it here so it isn't overlooked:

Quote:

---

Joyce,

I agree with some of your thoughts on human nature the way it is NOW. But if we "evolve our consciousnes" to a higher level wouldn't our nature change??

I don't mind doing or giving more than "my share" if someone needs it. In fact, it makes me feel good to do so, just like I like to give to my children or family members if they need something I can provide.

I think it's just plain wrong for so many to have so much while others starve.
And I think those in power will always do that until we have a Conscious Evolution.

That's why I come to this Community. I am trying to learn how to do that...for the good of the ALL.

---

Thanks Peggy, I think this is certainly relevant to where the thoughts seem to be leading at this point.

Love,
Greg

Thanks for posting Peggy's reply, Greg.......I was actually thinking of taking the liberty of doing that myself, since it seemed hidden......way down at the bottom of that other long thread, and not likely to be seen....

Luv,
Rainbow

Amy said.....

"certain behaviors" have already been ear marked for removal or deletion. so if anything i write resembles, say an Ace Yellow posting, off it goes with an Edited by Gregory on so and so date at the bottom. hehe.

Amy, that it not fair to Greg, at all...

....but on the other hand, I should hope that..."IF ANYTHING YOU WRITE, RESEMBLES AN ACE YELLOW POSTING"...Greg, would delete.....

....because that guy has a filthy, mouth!!!

I should hope you'd not be posting things about what you'd like to do sexually to certain people on this site, in very explicite terms....

That, Amy, is Ace Yellow...

I know you've come to his defense in the past, but I'd hoped that you weren't aware of his disgusting behavior....

I believe you spoke of him as being just another human being with a beating heart, who doesn't deserve the way he's been treated here...

Greg has let him back to this site time after time, only to have him mess up again, and again, with dirty cartoons and the like...

I'm sorry if I'm making mountains out of mole hills, but Ace is a touchy subject with me...

Luv,
Rainbow

ah rainbow, it was an example of the policies when enforced. take nothing from it.



amy

Interesting comments flowing.
I was in the middle of writing a story that sort of reflects on these posts.

Maybe I will finish but shoot, it's like someone showed the clip.

Hello Joyce!

Thanks for the lovely song, it's one of my favorite songs! The lyrics touch my heart, always.

Let me tell you something Joyce, I think that some people on this site live in a world of fiction and isolation from the reality and the facts.

jwhop, you and I were among the few ones on this site supporting the war, not for our aggressive tendencies (Fire signs ) but because of our sense of justice and our belief in democracy and freedom.

I've been waiting patiently and now we are being rewarded with the best possible scenario: the very fast war, not that many casualties, the end of the horrific regime, the FREEDOM for Iraqi people.

What can the rest of the anti-war members really say now when the action is over and they can see the happiness of Iraqi people?

It's unfortunate and sad that many innocent people have been killed in the war but this seems a small price to pay for the liberation of the whole nation.

If Saddam was left in power the weapons of mass destruction could be in a hands of many terrorist organisations threatening America and Europe and the rest of the world, all over the globe.

I admire Pres. Bush and his administration for having guts to say to Syria, Iran, and the rest of the tyrant regimes, enough is enough , no more!

I don't find it amusing or funny as Coonie does in her post about axes of evil. Evil exists in many countries, unfortunately.

Saddam was Stalin and Hitler, he was putting the world's peace and stability in danger.

So, Joyce, we were on the right side after all even if it was called war, no doubt in my mind.

The hatred never stops here as I've noticed today in some new posts, which is sad.

Greg should understand that this is not only about personal attacks, I can take that and jwhop and Joyce can take that too, this is about daily insults against America, some of them baseless and full of hatred.

That's why we react, somebody has to.

Greg, patriot is a person who loves his country... well, I've not found one little sign of love for America from you ???

El

Peggy, earlier on the other thread, you also asked why communism is such a dirty word for most Americans, and nobody ever really responded to that. I think for most Americans it's more because of the intense anti-communist fear and rhetoric that accompanied the cold war, than for specific strong ideological reasons. It's become one of those labels that automatically denotes evil, without much thought necessarily being given to it beyond the (demonstrably correct) perception that the Communist states we HAVE known to exist in the world have been repressive totalitarian states! However my own anti-communist beliefs (and perhaps Joyce's too) ARE ideological in nature ... once again, (speaking for myself) having to do with the inherent corruptibility of ALL government. If, as Jefferson opined and I firmly believe "that government which governs least, governs best," then Communism which governs absolutely (i.e., total government ownership of property, production and distribution, therefore control of every individual) must be the most oppressive and corruptible of all forms of government!

"Communism" in the generic sense of "communal living" or sharing is a different thing entirely. I lived in a small "commune" once for a brief period and enjoyed it, though I wouldn't as a permanent arrangement. But that's a strictly voluntary social arrangement, and IMHO completely impractical (and in fact never practiced) on a large scale such as government.

What we really have are two VERY broad general concepts that can combine in different ways: one is the perception of injustice in the world that is the legacy of power struggles from time immemorial. There are today countries with high standards of living, and countries where the standard of living is so abjectly low as to be virtually beyond comprehension to those who live in countries that are better off. And these inequalitiers are NOT due to any virtu or lack thereof on the part of the individual, they are simply due to the place and station in life into which he or she happens to be born.

The other major dimension here is the question of coercion versus voluntary interaction. The extremes of this dimension, in the material world, are freedom and slavery.

Now here's where things get confusing. It is one thing to suppose that there should be more justice and equality in the world, and I am the first to agree with that. However, the question is, how do we bring that about? The "communist" answer is to re-distribute wealth by means of physical force: the government owns everything, and doles it out "equally" to all, thereby elminating the class system and making everyone "equal" and giving "equal opportunity" to all. But we know from long experience that this theory doesn't work, because powerful indviduals with "special interests" at heart ALWAYS gravitate to position of government power. And, with the government having total power over the distribution of wealth, what ACTUALLY happens is that "the Party" becomes the new ruling elite ... and with the much greater power of government, they are even BETTER able than the leaders of other forms of government to repress members of other classes, which they always end up doing, generally brutally and ruthlessly.

On the other hand, Capitalism as developed by 18th and 19th century liberal philosophers, approached the problems of injustice and inequality by the OPPOSITE end of the spectrum of freedom/coercion. Rather than saying that the government will FORCE everyone to be "equal," they asserted that the best approximation of justice and equality would be obtained when human beings interacted with each other VOLUNTARILY rather than by government coercion. Thus, if a factory owner paid his workers too little, it only created an opportunity for a competing factory to lure those workers away with higher wages and better conditions, thus becoming more productive than the first factory. Similarly, if a maker of Widgets charged too much for its widgets, it created an opportunity for other makers of Widgets to charge less and sell more widgets. I certainly can't explain the whole theory of laissez-faire capitalism here, but its primary virtue compared to other systems is that it set up things in such a way that by allowing each person, whether worker or employer, to make his or her own decision about where to work, what to buy, how much to offer potential workers, and what prices to charge for their products, etc., the natural laws of supply and demand worked to prevent gross injustices and inequalities. There will always be SOME inequalities in such a system as a result of the fact that some folks are more ambitious than others and work harder; and also that there are some inherent differences in ability and intelligence, so that everyone is not ABLE (or willing) to "perform" at the same level of efficiency. But over time, these differences tend to even out over a broader scale ... there have always been the rich and the poor, but not until the rise of capitalism was there a large and growing ever-larger "middle class."

In sdimplistic terms, capitalism is the politico-economic system most commensurate with individual freedom and social equality, while communism (and other forms of total state control) are the LEAST commensurate with freedom ... and therefore (since power corrupts) also the least commensurate with social and economic justice and equality.

The real problem, as Peggy alluded to, is that as long as folks are primarily motivated by personal self-interest divorced from an innate sense of compassion and justice, is that even a system intended to be an expression of voluntary human interaction gradually drifts toward a system where those in power coerce other for their own ends. Thus, for example, the famous "robber barons" of the early railroad era were enabled to hire workers at scandalously low wages and inhuman working conditions NOT because they were more efficient competitors and ran their businesses better than anyone else could, but because they had special "favors" granted to them by governments in the form of subsidies, charters, monopoly "rights of way," land siezures under the laws of eminent domain and so on. As such powerful business interests gradually acquired more and more influence over government, the basic principles of capitalism - namely FREE markets and VOLUNTARY association, became more and more submerged, and less and less effective. Today, that capitalist ideal really no longer exists, except to a limited degree with smaler businesses. With BIG business, however, there is a collusion between the coercive power of government to grant favors, dispensations, special laws, monopoly privileges and so on, that effectively renders the free market and voluntary action impossible.

The REAL economic system we have in place in the Western world today - on the marco-economic scale of big business and what's now referred to as "globalism" - is nothing like free enterprise capitalism. It is instead a heavily government-controlled system that supports special interests and effectively perpetuates - once again - a privileged "ruling class" of financiers and high government official with mutual self-interests. Actually, this corporate/globalist system has much more in common with fascism that with capitalism.

So how to we get beyond this? My own belief - as Peggy intimated - is that we will NOT get beyond it without an actual change of consciousness. While the ideal is a governmental system that does not ALLOW special interests to achieve coercive force over others (which is exactly the system the founding fathers of America INTENDED to create), in the practical world ANY system will eventually be corrupted by the wealthy and powerful to their own interests at the expense of the poor and disadvantaged ... unless and until there is a mass change of consciousness in which the bulk of the world shifts its primary emphasis from "looking out for number one" to "looking out for all human beings as coequal expressions of spirit." When we are willing to "cut sharp deals" at the expense of others, we do not have the moral compass necessary to prevent the same thing from happening on a larger scale when the corporations we work for engage in corrupt tactics against their competitors (or consumers) -- or when the governments we live under engage in corrupt and coercive tactics to assure that our "national interests" put us in an advantageous position compared to the citizens of other countries.

We can protest against abuses - and should. And we can lobby for political reforms that favor freedom over coercion - and should. But these things are at best temporary palliative actions that may relatively improve some situations for some people for some period of time. But political or economic reforms of []any kind, IMHO cannot solve the basic problems of injustice and inequality in the world. Only a change in the priorities of human beings away from narrow selfishness toward an embracing compassion that views ourselves as inextricably embedded in the life of all can do that.

But again the caution: it is tempting to conclude that since there should be more justice and equality in the world, we should FORCE that to happen, through communist or socialist programs that COERCE "equality" or through military aggression that "imposes" democracy. These things are ideological illusions that in the long run are just a different route to the same destination, with different folks holding the reins of power over others, but the basic fact of human relations being governed by some holding power over others UNchanged.. Nothing will really change until we human beings change our own fundamental values. That's where our "Conscious Evolution" comes in, and nothing will take its place.

Love,
Greg

Excellent post Greg and you gave me much to "chew" on. I'll be digesting this the rest of the afternoon. (Goodness, maybe I need a snack or somethng! )

One thing for sure, I wish Thomas Jefferson would make a "come back". I think we need his wisdom!

El!

Quote:

---

Greg, patriot is a person who loves his country... well, I've not found one little sign of love for America from you ???

---

Well, you obviously haven't been looking because you'll find LOTS of posts here where I convey both intellectually and emotionally my very, very deep love for this country and the principles on which it was founded. I've made my loyalties about that abundantly clear on dozens if not hundreds of posts!

What IS true is that you have not found one little sign of love for the current executive administration of this country - and that IS true. My honest opinion, not stated in anger or to inflame, based on a LOT of research and deep thinking, is that they are bent on subverting America.

I understand that you don't agree with that, but please respect me enough to believe that I am honestly reporting my true beliefs based on the best information and thought of which I am capable. I am not "lying" to fool people into thinking I love America when I really hate it. I really hope you don't think I'm that despicable!

Now carry this one step further - when any of the Eastern European countries were controlled by "puppet" governments with Soviet loyalties, would a true patriot of those countries support the current administrations of their countries? OF COURSE NOT! A patriotic Hungarian would have been opposed to the government in power ... and many thousands of Hungarian patriots died fighting the "Hungarian" government ... because it was no longer a government that supported the traditional values and people of Hungary, but instead supported the power ambitions of the international communists. Right? Under those conditions, someone who supported the Hungarian government at the time was NOT a Hungarian patriot, he was a traitor to his country! Rather, those who fought for the RETURN of Hungary to its traditional people and values and the OUSTER of the then-current government who were the Hungarian patriots.

Same here. If Joyce and/or other Americans here believe in their heart of hearts that the current administration is supporting and defending the constitution and the traditions and freedoms of America, then patriotism will rightfully impel them to support the administration. And if others here honestly believe in our heart of hearts that the current admisistration is subverting the constitution and pulling us AWAY from the traditions and freedoms of America, then an equally strong patriotism will impel us to oppose that administration.

Patriotism is love of COUNTRY, not love of whoever happens to have grabbed power in that country at any given time. We all have a right to disagree about whether this administration does or does not support the values of America. But given that opinion, made with integrity, I have no more right to call Joyce an "America-hater" because she supports an administration I perceive as destructive to my country, than she has to call me one because I oppose an administration she perceives as supportive of it.

How much more clearly does that have to be stated? Or do you remain convinced that a patriot supports whoever has power in his country REGARDLESS of whether those power-holders support the fundamental institutions of the country or not?

C'mon El ... the relentless application of this "anti-American" label is untrue and unfair ... and after being explained SO clearly SO many times, I think it is at the very least intellectually dishonest to keep repeating it.

Love,
Greg

Peggy

Quote:

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One thing for sure, I wish Thomas Jefferson would make a "come back". I think we need his wisdom!

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You and me both!



Love,
Greg

Greg said.....

"Patriotism is love of COUNTRY, not love of whoever happens to have grabbed power in that country at any given time. We all have a right to disagree about whether this administration does or does not support the values of America."

I am with you Greg, as well as many others here who feel the same way....

......and this is SO SIMPLY STATED, that I cannot imagine why anyone here .....doesn't get it....*sigh*

I would really hate to think that Hitler (if he were still alive), or someone similar, came into power here in the United States (our leaders seem to not necessarily have to be ELECTED any more)...and was now the leader of our country.....that I'd be "unpatriotic" for not supporting him..... or I would be an "America hater" for not supporting him...

It's really quite simple...

El says.....

"What can the rest of the anti-war members really say now when the action is over and they can see the happiness of Iraqi people?"

What can we say??? What we can say is........that it looks like Syria may be the next country that Bush hopes to go to war with, for "the freedom of America,".......and then there will be another, and another, and I suppose it doesn't really matter how many human lives have to be sacrificed for that...*sigh*....

Oh btw, El....I have a Pisces Moon too...Scorpio Rising and five planets in water in my chart...

....and yes, I'm sensitive and usually more quiet in person than I am here....

......but you must believe me when I tell you.....that...I too, like you, Joyce, and jwhop, have a sense of justice and believe in democracy and freedom, and that is exactly why my heart breaks to see what is happening to our country now.....now that it is in the hands of a tyrant!

Luv,
Rainbow

.

Keeeripes give it a rest already Joyce. Sheesh you're going over and over the same stuff. There is really NO use to carry on and on. you made your point!
Go relax for a while.
Meditation and prayer work always helps.


Peggy, Ive been meaning to comment about the communism topic as well. Or more the "community(ism)" topic.
I think as time goes on, people will have to learn to live together more in that fashion in order to survive. I think its a part of our future once it all gets really hairy.

heck, maybe its even a part of the "plan"!

Jeeeesssuuuuusssss people. I have mostly lurked here since Greg got this site going and have rarely posted. But I gotta say it now.

CAN WE HAVE A LITTLE "NEW-AGE WITHOUT THE SEWAGE!!!"

There are some people that post here that have such a victims mentality its sickening.

I don't know nottin' about new age but this is following the Astological transits to a T.
(No pun intended but it fits.)
http://www.stariq.com

Hey last. I'll call you Tom if you call me Ben.
We'll go on Jerry Springer's and we'll be Ben and Jerry and Tom and Jerry.

Hey that works out, Jerry is a mouse, Tom is a cat and Ben is a dog. Oh no, Ben is a bear, Benji is a dog.

I wonder what system the animails are using?




another refference to the T http://www.jonathancainer.com/

Astrology works. Excellent article, thanks!

Love,
Greg