Looks like they have not been trsanslated, but please read the review at the bottom of this link....


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/8408014552/qid=1076386778/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-7242778-1915912?v=glance&s=books

Sorry Kel, to invade your thread....

Hi Suchi,

The record stands by way of witnesses in good standing without blemish. It is all of these things, not this or that.
There is no record of another, anywhere.
The recorded history is from a nation dating back over 6,500 years. The record comes from a nation of law and love from which we get most of our modern law and civilized meaning and purpose of life today. Nations that are almost lawful are hardly validated. Nation mixing religion and government are corrupt in mind and heart from the beginning.

Your argument is one of the oldest deceptions of history
It shows disrespect for history and arrogance towards the wisdom of the ancestors. Nice try but no cigar. Not all people from the past were Neanderthals or worked form corrupt governments or had barbaric ways.

I have more faith in UFO sightings than heathen religions of the world.
Holly Cows? What's up with that? Popes talking to God? Give me a break.
A mad man gets tablets from a South American traveler. Yeah, right.

Maybe cows and turtles fly UFO's? Maybe pigs fly and talk to God?
But they forgot to leave a record and they are not here now.

Can hardly wait for your details.

Hi Tish,

It can't be proved. Faith is the only way to God. Jesus' record is the only valid record we have from history connecting man to God. All other versions are faerie tells from camp fire story tellers. I could make up a new one in ten minutes.
With out a connecting from man to God. There is no God. There is no law. There is no right or wrong. Name one man on this earth that is better than you and has the right to tell you what to do with out using force. Name just one.

The knowledge of God is the BEGINNING of wisdom. Not that many get beyond the beginning. Thank God for his sprit of grace.

Darwin

Connie, think about this. How does one know whether a Fact is a Fact, and hasn't been changed for the benefit of who is recording/writing the Fact?
Darwin, how do you know that there has not been any man other than Jesus (head of an organization) who has performed miracles or brought anyone back from the grave?
Evy

Sometimes fiction books have "a good moral " to the story, and sometimes one can learn new ways of being, like "The Celestine Prophecy" or some of Paul Cohelo's books.
I don't agree that "people who lack imagination" need fiction.
You can be as imaginative as you like, but there's nothing like a really good story to take you to a certain place and time, and evoke certain moods, feelings and ideas which you may not decide to imagine yourself. Fiction is a way for the writer to help you see, feel what they themselves are feeling, it is a form of art, an expression.

Hi Evy,

I agree with you, we can learn so much with fiction. In fact Jesus used fiction to teach his disciples...

Love,

Tish

Kel,

I am not arguing about anything, much less different religious beliefs. I don't care what anyone else chooses to believe. I stated that. See above post. I respect all of your beliefs. Which doesn't seem to be the case when it comes to you and my beliefs. What I AM doing here is presenting facts that oppose what you present from the book as facts. They are based on history too. So what is the TRUE history? I am presenting a different viewpoint. I AM discussing the book. I AM discussing what is presented in the book. I DID say that although I haven't read the book that does not mean that I wouldn't read it. Again, SEE above post. Evy, Tish, Ginny and others who have posted here have not read the book either. Yet you haven't given them the ultimatium that you just gave me in your post of either agreeing with you and the book or shut up. The only one who has read the book besides you is Amy. Yet what they have said, simply because it agrees with you and the book, is accepted by you. For you to say I am not discussing your book is simply not true and anyone can see that. I just don't agree with it. I don't HAVE to agree with it. I think for myself. I am posting material that does not agree with it. In John Sewells own words you can see where Dan Brown out and out lied on his site about what Sewell said by taking his words and twisting them to mean what he wanted them to mean. Just as you are doing my words. Just as he has done in his book. He only uses partial historical facts. He can do that. It is book of FICTION not FACT. Yet you are presenting them on this thread as fact. I don't know where you studied or what you studied but I studied for 4 years in the seminary and I know Christian history. I posted the truth about the Council of Nicea. I posted the truth about what John Sewell said.

I am only presenting another viewpoint so folks here can make up their mind based on both viewpoints. I don't see any argument except from you because you for some reason can't seem to handle another viewpoint about this book. I think maybe it is due to your own labels of Christians. You lump us all together. Please don't project that onto me.

I don't care who wants to believe or not believe that Jesus was divine. I simply stated that I do in agreement with Prox. I don't care who wants to believe that Jesus was married to Mary Magdelene. In fact, what I was taught, and what I believe is that you don't even have to believe in Jesus at all to be spiritual and or go to heaven, however you imagine heaven to be. Or even if you don't believe in an after life. None of that matters to me. The truth does matter to me though. Justice and fairness and hearing all viewpoints matters to me. My freedom to express my opinions at CE or any place else matters to me. I will not be told to shut up by you or anyone else. I am not out to win your approval or anyone elses. I don't care to belong to your little clique or anyone elses. I care about the truth though. I care that these people who are reading this book or your opinions don't just get your FACTS but other FACTS as well so they can make an informed opinion. That is all I'm doing here.

If that is taken as "arguing" by you then that is your problem. Not mine. Please don't project your prejudices about Christians onto me.

Love, Connie

Connie,

I didn't tell you to shut up, it's just that you have made a lot of assumptions and statements about the book that aren't true and it comes from the fact that you haven't read it. It's like arguing the bible with someone who hasn't read any of it... an exercise in frustration. My Mars in Libra, just dosen't like to argue or debate, especially if the parties disucssing the subject haven't both read it to know what it says. None of the others who haven't read it were trying to argue or debate things presented in the book.

What I quoted from Dan Browns book that he listed as a fact is true. Read the quote again. He said that the Opus Dei was the subject of controversy... they are. That is his fact.

What you said in this post (as well as earlier ones) just goes to prove the point that no one is going to prove anything. You are going to find sources that say one thing just as easily as I can find sources that say others, that was not the point of this thread... and why I initially didn't answer you or proxy, and it still appears to me that from the earlier posts you two were having issues with this book implying that Jesus might not have been divine. If I misunderstood your reasons for being upset with the book and what it says I'm sorry, that's just how it appeared to me (esp since Proxy is still going on about it).

As far as lables (or prejudices) towards Christians (or any religion for that matter), I don't have any and used to be one most of my life, now I just have an expanded view that does not put one religion or Master above the others. They all had wonderful messages and teachings that can lead one towards a greater understanding of God. No path is wrong.

Hi Amy,

I liked that about it too... it had been a long time since I read a book that was suspenseful and kept me on my toes. I liked learning through the mystery book approach as well... made it more interesting and less dry. I read it in 3-4 days.

What I liked the most was learning about the Goddess and feminine divine that has been supressed through religion for so long. It is very nice to see this information getting out there. How about the information about the pentacle and how Venus's orbit makes the shape of the pentacle, how the inside of the apple forms a star, and the rose symbology with all of the 5's... this is the stuff that I liked and most reminded me of Linda's stuff. I felt that Dan Browns novel very much resonated with the things I have read by our dear Linda, who drew me to this site in the first place.

I can't wait for the next book, as it continues on with the same characters (well at least Robert Langdon).

Tish, I loved your post. What you say is very true. I am also happy that those who were told not to read the book did read it. They got both views and that is as it should be. The point I was trying to make here from the beginning. That is ALL that I was doing in fact.

Prox, loved your post too. We don't have to wait until we die to know who or what Jesus truly is. All we have to do is ask him with a sincere and open heart. He will reveal himself to us. Trouble is most folks don't have that childlike open heart that is required to know Jesus. Their egos and biased opinions stand in the way. Their minds are already made up so that mind is closed to truth.

EOS, regarding what Prox said about the miracles as proof, I do have first hand knowledge of miracles in my own life and I am sure that Prox does as well. My grand daughter Maddie was a true miracle. In all regards of human knowledge and human effort Maddie should not be the healthy, beautiful, happy little 3 year old girl she is today. Even the doctors in charge of her declared it a miracle because she was way too bad off from the cancerous tumor at birth to have had even a fighting chance of survival. She was bleeding internally. But through prayer and because she was loved and wanted so very much, she was healed. It was only through the healing power of Jesus and his making it once again possible for us to reach God after the fall of humanity that Maddie was healed and is with us today. Jesus said " ask and you shall receive." Ask him if he is divine or not and have an open mind and an open heart and you don't have read anything else or listen to anyone else's testimony on it. You will know it in your heart.

Prox is also right about that show concerning the book and Dan Brown and what he presented. In the end nothing was proven as fact. The show offered both sides and both views as well. I'm glad Prox presented that here about the show. For those of you had not seen the show would not have known that otherwise. Because even regarding the show only one side was presented on this thread. That is why I was attempting to present the other side of the coin. You aren't going to get both sides in that book either. Though I would recommend reading it as well. In fact, read everything. But also listen to everyone. We all have some truth. God works through all of us. It is called tolerance. And what Prox said about the RC Chruch being a target for everyone is very true too. Is there corruption and politics in the RC Church? Are there good men and bad men in the RC Chruch? You bet!! It is run by humans and any where in this world you find humans ( which is everywhere) you are going to find corruption, politics, and egos. You will find both good and evil within all churches, all religions and all walks of life. That is a paradox that Prox spoke of. Just as Jesus being both human and divine is a paradox. We live with paradoxes. But no way was Jesus both human and divine as we are. He was much more. It is ego that wants us to place ourselves equal to Jesus in any way.

That I or Prox was arguing here on this thread is a matter of perception like the arrow on the Fed Ex logo. We were only giving another viewpoints and I gave facts to support my statements. If that is seen as argument by anyone then it is their perception because that is how they want to perceive and present it.

You can always tell heresies because they divide and confuse. That which comes from God eliminates confusion and unites. That is a true test.

As I said before what you all choose to believe is respected by me. I want to hear what you believe and your views. But I also believe that Prox and I should have the same respect for our beliefs even if they differ from all of yours and also have our opinions and beliefs heard instead of ignored. If it is a Christian viewpoint that does not mean we are "preaching" or trying to force our beliefs on anyone. It is our viewpoint based on who we are. Because as Prox said, Christianity is not a religion. It is a way of life, a view of the world and what what you are as a person. Not just a belief. We can't help that some Christians are the way they are. That doesn't make us just like them anymore than other Buddhists or other whatever you are are just like you. We should not have those Christian predjudices thrust on us every time we give our view on matters that concern religion. WHICH THIS BOOK DOES CONCERN. This book concerns the foundation of Christianity. Having learned of the Dead Sea Scrolls in classes at the seminary I would have to ask Kel where she got her interpretation that she presented as a fact. From the scrolls themselves or from a conspiracy web site???? If you present something as a fact then I think you should also present your sources.



Love, Connie

Connie, I'm not arguing about Christianity. I don't think I know enough about the subject to argue with any authority. But, I do have more knowledge about the culture and religion that I grew up with, than any of you and from my viewpoint, I see big gaps in Darwin's argument. I never said, I don't believe in Miracles. Infact, I was sure, you would be one of the people who would come up with examples of some. I was simply responding to Darwin's claim that no one else has been able to work miracles.

Darwin, I still don't have the time to go into any details, but I will get back to you. About holy cows, my dear, it's not saying that the cow is God. It is showing respect to a highly useful animal who provided our ancestors with everything from milk to fuel (from the dung). I think the native american in you would understand the respect for nature part, right? Besides, one of the beliefs around here is that God is in all of creation. Be it a mountain, a tree, a rock or an ant. In that sense, yes, a cow is divine and so are you and me. That is why we are taught to be good to all, because, harsh behaviour towards another is equivalent to harsh behaviour to God. Myths and fairy tales? Well, how can you be so certain that the story of Jesus is not just a myth as well?

History is one of my favourite subjects, but what makes my curiousity burn even more is the unrecorded parts of history. Because, history is very often written by the victors. And whether what comes down to us as historical fact is really the truth, you can never tell, unless you lived through it yourself.

Suchi, your last lines were the point I was trying to make about history and so called " Facts"

I know, Evy and I related to what you said

And here's a funny coincidence. My colleague just forwarded this to me. Talking about "Facts" :

Quote:

---

A man is taking a walk in Central park in New York. Suddenly he
>sees
> >a
> > > >little girl being attacked by a wild bulldog. He runs over and
> >fights
> > > with
> > > >the dog and succeeds in killing it and saving the girl's life.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >A policeman who was watching the scene walks over and says: You are
> >a
> > > hero,
> > > >tomorrow you can read in the newspapers - " Brave New Yorker saves
> >the
> > > life
> > > >of little girl "
> > > >
> > > >The man replies - "But I am not a New Yorker!"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Oh then it will say in the newspapers 'Brave American saves life of
> > > little
> > > >girl'" - the policeman answers.
> > > >
> > > >"But I am not an American!" - says the man.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"Oh, What are you then ? "
> > > >
> > > >The man says, "I am a Pakistani!"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >The next day newspapers read
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >(Scroll Down)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >(Scroll Down)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >(Scroll Down)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"Islamic extremist kills American dog !!
> > > >
> > > >Connections to terrorist networks are being explored"

---

Connie........Kelly........I have never met either of you, but I love you both. It is clear to me that you are wonderful spiritual women....tho apparently coming from different places...*sigh*

Connie....I admire you for your convictions, and devotedness....and sharing your beliefs....the beliefs that have guided you in your life....the beliefs that give you spiritual comfort...that is admirable.....standing up for what you believe....but I am I'm sorry that you feel your toes are being stepped on by others....

I really don't think that it was the intention here...

Kelly started out by wanting to discuss a book....obviously a very controversial book...and while there was input to the best of everyone's ability, it seems to have escalated into a very emotionl and personal discussion......

This makes me sad, because it causes conflict between some really beautiful people here. *sigh*

It seems that when emotions are involved (i.e, how DARE you challenge my beliefs that I KNOW to be true?), feelings get hurt.

I think that much of what's been discussed here is basically just taken the wrong way and turns into misunderstandings...

We are all entitled to our beliefs....and I'm sure each one of ours is unique and not quite like everyone else's....

There was a time in my life, when I was very convinced that what I believed at the time, was the total truth, and nobody could convince me otherwise....so I can relate to anyone feeling that way. Thru the years, I've been presented with things that did not exactly contradict my beliefs, but rather enhanced them....added to them, making them even more understandable....

I used to be a Catholic....and was pretty entrenched in the beliefs....I feel I've grown from that, but hey, I could be wrong! Maybe that IS the only path to follow.....
Same for the newer age beliefs I've embraced! I feel comfortable with them, but I don't know for sure that they are right or the TRUTH! Could be they are way off base...,,,I try to remain open....and accept anybody and what they believe....and what is getting them thru life......we are all searching (sorry, Dani *smile*)

I truly hope that emotions will not cause any kind of rift between the wonderful, beautiful people here.....

Love,
Rainbow

Kel,

What you said about each of us having our own paths to follow in life is very true and one I agree with and have expressed that on these threads many times.

How can we discuss the book if we don't discuss what the book contains which is the question of Jesus's divinity? Having been a Christian once yourself you should know that is the foundation of Christianity. It is what our faith is based on. Prox and I just gave our view on what the book presents regarding that. I told you I don't have to read the book to know all it contains. Outside of what the book presents the rest of the book is just a story line. It may be a very good mystery story. Obviously from all I have read from people who have read the book, including John Sewell, it is a good mystery story. I don't happen like mystery stories. I just said I don't agree with what the book presents on the divinity of Jesus or his marriage to Mary Magdelene. And I stated why I didn't believe it. Which Prox also did. I also said that I questioned that for a long time myself.

You did not come out and tell me to read the book or shut up but that is what your words implied to me. Maybe my own perception of those words.

Perception is what all this is really based on I think and I explained how Christianity IS what forms mine and Prox's world view. Like the Fed Ex logo, we only see what we want to see and sometimes what we think we see has more in it. That is a good point Dan Brown's book makes. I just stated that all art has hidden meanings because all artists, not just Da Vinci, apply their own interpretations to their works. Of course what art experts say back his statement on that concerning Da Vinci. What he doesn't say is that it also backs that fact on ALL artists and ALL art. Again, half truths.

Evy, I'm glad you asked the question what facts are true facts. As I stated in my post in the beginning even history is biased. Dan Brown also stated that history is biased. So what is truth? Somewhere in the middle of the facts I presented and what the author of the book says are facts lies the truth. The truth concerning Jesus and who and what Jesus really is is based on recorded historical events that archeologists are finding more and more evidence to support. But as Prox said, there is no way we can prove the fact that Jesus was divine other than to site the recorded events he performed. And even when he performed those miracles Jesus said, "seeing you still do not believe." Even to his own apostle Thomas he said, "Thomas have I been with you so long and you still do not know who I am? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father." At another time he said, "The Father and I are one." But the only way anyone can come to know that is to go to the source himself and with a true desire to want to know, just ask him. A matter of faith cannot be proven. Prox and I know what we know of Jesus which I'm sure is miniscule compared to all he is, is by faith because we have felt his presence within and talked to him. He is not unreachable you know. You CAN talk to him. He is forever at the doors of our hearts knocking. He won't force himself on us. He waits for our invitation. All we have to do is open that door to our hearts and let him in. Then you can know what is fact and what is heresy concerning Jesus.

It is not our religion or our beliefs that Prox and I are talking about so much here as it is what we have come to know by faith and in our hearts regarding the divinity of Jesus. And that does not mean we are in any way superior or smarter or more perfect than anyone else. We are sinners and the churches are full of sinners and that is what the churches are for, sinners. Jesus came for the sinners. Not the perfect and Christianity is not about being perfect. Jesus is just plainly the only hope us poor sinners have of ever becoming better people. And anyone can see he is not finished with me and Prox yet. We still have a long way to go.

I can't prove Jesus's divinity anymore than Dan Brown or anyone else can prove he wasn't divine. Only Jesus can prove his divinity and if you want to know ask him with an open mind and an open heart. The way I see it, we have to have some form of navigation through this life. As for me I'm going to cast my anchor of hope up and fasten it firmly to cross of Jesus. Because with faith and in my heart I believe he is the only hope this world has. The only hope I have. I believe Jesus and try to follow him as best as I can being the weak, messed up human being I am. I do not believe everything the RC Chruch says or any other religion says or even what I see and hear unless some how that is validated in my heart by the one I have entrusted to guide me along my path in life. I see that as all we can do. But we need to hear and see all viewpoints to help us ask the questions. Like you, I am asking that question all the time. How do I know what facts are true and what facts are not true? That is the best question to ask.

Prox said it best. It all comes from the grace of God. Without that there is nothing but hopelessness. I don't see myself as right or wrong. I don't see others as right or wrong. We are all searching. That is how I see it. Jesus is the compass I have chosen. So far that compass has served me well. Though I'm still a mess.

What it boils down to is that Prox and I cannot prove the divinity of Jesus nor can anyone else. Nor can anyone prove he isn't divine. Because Jesus doesn't want it proven by facts, he wants it KNOWN in the heart. And he is the only source for finding out.

Love, Connie

Evy....I know that what we read in the books may not be an accurate account of actual history.....Native American history in the history books used in schools, being a point in case....

Love,
Rainbow

Suchie..... funny post.......! ! !


Now....on a more serious note....

...I have a respect for all religions....and would never, never take a shot at anybody's by snidely making remarks about "holy cows." That was rude....and disrepectful...not "typical" true Christian behavior! (Dar you get l8 lashes with a wet noodle..now go sit in the corner! *shakes finger*)

...and you're right Native Americans do respect all life...at least our ancestors did...*sigh* ...and we do see God in all creation.

I also like your perspective on history, Suchie....
The victors rewrote the history of the Native American...*sigh*

Love,
Rainbow

Hi guys , I've been absent for a while because I got the job I was hoping for, and have been on a mad dash to polish off the mountain of backlogged work they brought me in to help with. The past couple of days I've had a tad of free time in the evenings, and I've been using that to help get our unconsciounably late February metamorphosis out the door ... which has finally happened, hooray!

I'm at work this morning so can't really take the time to engage here, but I wanted to stop in and say that I'll be back later in the day to contribute to this conversation, 'cause it's one I'm really interested in. I've not only read the book, but have read dozens of other books and research pieces on the general idea behind it - that Jesus may actually have been married to Mary Magdalene, and that the awareness of this may have been systematically repressed through the ages for essentially political reasons. I don't pretend to know whether this is true or not, but there is some quite plausible evidence to support it, and a number of reputable historians, theologians, linguists and iconologists who believe it is likely to be accurate based on their own researches.

(And yes, Linda did express her suspicion that the marriage certificate of Jesus and Mary Magdalene might be hidden somewhere though of course that really says nothing except that someone whose thinking many of us value thought it was a plausible idea. )

I also think that this question is not about either debunking or validating Christianity, and that casting it as a relisious clash is a mistake.

Anyway, I'll be back to share more, I think this is a really worthwhile subject to discuss from many angles.

Love,
Greg

Congratulations Greg!

Hi Greg

Alright on the job... Congrats! I figured that this was the reason you have been scarce lately.

I agree very much with your statement towards the end of your post here... that it's not an issue of debunking or validating Christianity. The information gleaned in this book did not alter my high view of Christ and what he did for mankind whether he was human, divine or married.

I am looking forward to hearing what you have to say.

First of all I want to tell both Kelly and Connie, that there is no need to "feel" anything about this discussion, in fact it has been a great discussion, I am glad it started, because I have read some very good points in every post, that have made me think, and that's something I love...thinking!!! I have enjoyed your posts even if they seemed emotional, in fact that's why they are so good!!
Because of it, Evy, proxy, Suchi, Amy, Rainbow, Greg and myself have also contributed, with more good posts...

Now, back to the discussion...

Connie, I liked what you wrote about why you belive in Jesus divinity, and I think it is wonderful the nearness you feel to Him. But I don't agree with you when you say humans are sinners and weak, messed up beings. Least of all you!!!
I believe that we all are perfect human souls created to God's resemblance. (this word doesn't applies perfect to the word I am looking for, but it is the literal translation of the word found in the Bible in Spanish).
Jesus loves us all, the way we are right now. We all are on Earth experimenting life, we will make many mistakes, and will learn by them, some of us will learn faster and some slower.
I don't believe we are sinners by nature.

I also agree with Greg and you that Jesus marrying has anything to do with his divinity, He came to Earth to live as human, it was just natural for him to be married.

Hi Suchi, I belive like you that God is in everything, be it a human being, an animal or a rock. After all we are made from HIM, we are an extension of him....literally!!

I might get some controversy with what I am going to post now, but sometimes I ask myself if Jesus, Mahoma, Buda, Krishna and any else I might be missing are the same divine being????

Love,

Tish

P.S. I'm glad you got the job Greg !!!!Congratulations!!!!

............................


G~R~E~G~O~R~Y~

I'm so happy for you.....welcome back....you've been missed!

Love,
Rainbow

(Ps...that's ginger ale in the bottle...)

Quote:

---

I might get some controversy with what I am going to post now, but sometimes I ask myself if Jesus, Mahoma, Buda, Krishna and any else I might be missing are the same divine being????

---

My thoughts likewise, Tish

I think they are all manifestations of the same divine force and so are we. We just haven't realised how to utilise our full potential. Kind of like saying, they graduated high school and we're still stuck in 5th grade or whatever, based on our level of development.

I'm with you ladies, and think I have heard this before Tish... sounds familiar.

Very nice way of putting it Suchi.

I would agree with the statement that you and Suchi made, Tish. I too believe that God is in everything. Nothing came to be without God so he has to be in everything and everyone. I also like cows. Customs are different in every country as are beliefs and religions and those differences should be respected.

I differ in opinion though about humanity not being prone to sin. But thanks for what you said about me. I think that our world and all the evils we see perpetrated by humans gives testimony to our sinfulness. We are created in God's image and we are created good as you said. But it is real hard for me to not acknowledge that we are not also prone to sin when I hear about some man kidnapping a 12 year old child from a shopping store parking lot and killing her as recently happened in Florida. I try to be good and still find myself doing things that are not so good. I can feel the battle in me at times. The conflict between what my soul desires and what my ego desires. That is what I meant by humans being prone to sin. My soul doesn't always win out either.

Quote:

---

I might get some controversy with what I am going to post now, but sometimes I ask myself if Jesus, Mahoma, Buda, Krishna and any else I might be missing are the same divine being????

---

I too have pondered that thought since in Christianity there have been accounts of Padre Pio who is a saint of our times having the ability to be in different places at the same time. They call that bi- something or other. I'm sorry but I can't remember the term. But he could travel and be at the side of a dying person while he was at the same time hearing confession or presiding over mass. So if Padre Pio could be in more than one place at the same time then why couldn't Jesus? Jesus did not just come for the Jews and Gentiles of the Middle East but he came for all humanity. That is why as I stated before there is no religion that does not have truth.

Also I agree with you Suchi that while Jesus did perform miracles he was not the only one who did. Many of the saints also performed miracles and I am sure there are cases of miracles being performed by those in other religions as well. Though I don't know personally of any at this time. What I think Prox meant is that Jesus was the only man to ever raise someone from the dead and he was speaking of Mary's brother Nazareth. What Padre Pio and others have done is only by the grace of God and the gift he gave them.

Greg congrats on the job. That is wonderful! I too figured that is where you were. Regarding this whole thing about Jesus being married to Mary Magdelene as I stated in one of my posts, I too have questioned that and for many years. We discussed it in some of my seminary classes and some priests and nuns do think that it is possible he did. As I said there are both liberal thinkers and conservative thinkers in the Church. I am somewhere between the two just as I am in my politics. My thoughts on that is that Jesus did not begin his mission until he was 30. He was crucified when he was 33. He spent all his time with his apostles and/or disciples teaching and preparing them for their mission. He had no money or property. He depended on the hospitality of those who were his disciples just for a place to sleep at night. He did not encounter Mary Magdeline until near the end of his mission. Scripture depicts Mary as living with her sister Martha and her brother Nazareth. If he married Mary and had children as some people think, he was a fast worker even for a person who was divine considering there was only 3 years from when his mission began and when he died. And why would he do that knowing his mission was to end in his crucifixon? Why would he take a wife and bring children in the world when he knew he would not be around much longer? If he did and I was Mary I would have been real pissed about that.
Being married to Mary may not take away from Jesus's divinity but having children with her would. Mary Magdelene was like us born with original sin from the fall. Jesus was born without any original sin and if he was as we believe in Christianity, God, he could not father children without them being also human and divine. Which would nullify the very act that Jesus performed for humanity on the cross which was taking all the sins of the world onto himself and making atonement for our sins by dying. Why would it nullify it? Because he would have offspring to pass on the human/divinity genes. There would have been no need for the sacrifice of himself for us. Nope I don't believe that God is a grandpa thousands of times over. I will believe that Jesus is not divine when archeologists find his body. So far - though they have searched for the body of Jesus for years and years - they have not found the remains of Jesus who we in Christianity believe was the Christos, the Christ, the promised Messiah. Nor have they found the body of his mother, Mary. The only other person they have not found remains of mentioned in the bible is Moses. It is thought that Moses was also assumed into heaven body and soul.

As I said, for those who are into mystery novels this book sounds like good reading. I never said I wouldn't read the book. Except that I don't read mystery novels. I'm sure that both Lisa and my daughter in law who are both avid readers will read it though. They can tell me about it.

There is a good movie coming out soon that was directed by Mel Gibson called " The Passion of Christ." I hear it is an awesome movie and the best one ever done concerning Jesus. I wonder if that is going to get as much attention from people as this book. There is controversy regarding the movie too so it might.

Just one more thing about Opus Dei. I don't like the organization much myself as I said before. I stated that I am aware of the controversy concerning some of their tactics and practices. I believe that many have had bad experiences such as Tish. But there are also many who haven't. It has been said here and other places that they are "secretive." There is a difference between being secrective and private. The group is private but so are Buddhist and other religious monasteries. That does not mean they are keeping some dark, dirty secrets. In fact, because of all the things going around the internet about the group they have released a document containing their statutes which was approved by the Pope. Unfortunately it was the original documents which were in Latin so they are being critcized for that. I imagine for that reason they will also be released in English eventually. As for building a $55 million building in New York to house their new American branch of Opus Dei, they began in a house in New York until they got the funds for the building. As for the cost, that is what construction costs these days for buildings and churches. I am a bit of a private person so I imagine the neighbors that don't know me think I am secretive when in fact, I am an open book. There was a thing going around the internet not long ago that the logo on the Proctor and Gambel label was a satanic symbol. Many believed that and Proctor and Gambel had to establish a web site just to disprove it showing the evolution of the logo from the beginning to now. The logo contains the moon and stars. But some people saw it as satanic. People read into things what they want to see.

Love, Connie

Hi everybody!
At the end of the day, all paths end at the same destination.
I agree with you Tish, I have had feelings that Jesus, Krsna, Mohammed and maybe Buddha may have been the same person, there are similarities between them.
I tend to get a lot of my spirituality from Paganism, the religion of the earth that worships nature which existed before Christianity. I get a feeling that things were alright here on the earth then, when people lived close to nature, in tune with the seasons, energising the sacred spots on the earth such as stone circles and the like with their dancing and singing.
Then a group of Christians came, converted some of them and who else would'nt convert they killed or burnt them at the stake as witches. They then knocked the stone circles down,the acupuncture spots of the planet and built their churches, and made their Gods into Devils (Pan, the Goat footed God of music and song was made into the devil), suppressed the Goddess, as most of them were patriarchal men and denied their sexuality, which caused more problems later.
I know what you mean about there being "sin" in the world, but I do not relate to myself as a "sinner". There is Sin in the world because there is no connection with the earth, people are eating poisonous food, in the west people are very repressed and so things happen which are way out of balance. And of course, according to Indian tradition it is Kali Yuga.
In tribal societies, there ever rarely are scenes of madness and horrific murders and kidnappings like in western societies.