Hi Everyone

I thought that this words and numbers forum would be the appropriate place to bring to bring up a discussion of the book The DaVinci Code by Dan Brown.

I saw the expose of this book and the theories explored within on tv (quite sometime ago), but until recently had not read the book. It's really picking up steam, and even my Mom is anxious to read it...

I'm excited about the fact that this book is a best seller and that the ideas/theories contained are making it to mainstream society. It would be really interesting to find out who the descendants of Jesus were.

What do you think?

If Jesus had descendents then it is unlikely he was God incarnate or the physical off spring of God's divine ability to procreate.
So if one believes that, the significance of who or what Jesus was is meaningless, being that it was all a part of politics and religion of early history.

If Jesus is just another man, like Bubba, whom we know was a over protected child that finally got a clue, and through guilt and compassion tried to make the world a better place based on his inability to handle the over powering bitterness of his discoveries, or like any other so called historical man representing some enlightenment process that compelled him to write a book and assume that they finally had the answer of answers.

The reality of it is being proved more and more each passing year. If not Jesus, then there is no one, there is nothing, only our intertwined consciousness, as part of nature on this particular planet, according to how our brains and emotions have evolved, influenced by the common values and history, developing a conflict within our advanced reasoning and our primordial animal desires.
The advancement in scientific discoveries in outer space make our universal significance even less than minuscule, and the fact that there may be billions and billions of civilizations across the universe is becoming quit obvious. And with such acknowledgement, realizing that even if we discovered an astro-twin civilization, invented space-time travel to get there, with the best of intentions between the two worlds, one little kiss would wipe out half of each, and in time each would again evolve to become something else.

The Birthday words for
TUESDAY 3rd February 2004
Gertrude Stein, writer, born this day in 1874.

[Quote]

"There ain't no answer. There ain't gonna be any answer. There never has been an answer. That's the answer."

[/Quote]

Unless of course, you believe with your heart. Then there is a possibility of an answer.

It is highly unlikely that there was ever an enlightened human being ever. Mainly because we are just now getting to a level of knowledge in the various hethertobefore separated studies, that would allow some spark of Genus to piece together the basic rules of how humans interact and for what reasons, being governed by nature's built in characteristics, forever teetering back and forth between animal survival, desires, wants, conquest and the reasoning of logic to make group efforts to protect and advance the will of those whom are smarter, and more willing to compromise, because they don't have the guts to stand up and take what they want and die in a blasé of self defined existence. Most just talk about it but are indeed sniffling little cowards looking for a better deal.
And in such mind set, will group together and kill, plunder and destroy with great intentions, other groups. It's pretty simple really.
Human Love is admitting that you are weak and can't survive on your own. If there is no God, then there is no such thing as unconditional love. We just fake it so our group can win. And the Americans happen to be really good at it.

Have a great day,
Darwin

I haven't read the book, Kel but I did see the expose on TV that you saw regarding the book.

I agree with what Prox said regarding the Incarnation and divinity of Jesus. Myself I think the author of the book is really promoting his/her own agenda which is just one more attempt to bring Jesus down to our level and make him "just like us." Jesus was only like us in that he had human form and for that reason also had human emotions and free will. But where it differs is that Jesus was Virginally conceived, his was the Virginal birth. God could not be born of just any woman either as some may think. If that were the case then Jesus would have been tainted with original sin. A being as pure as God could not be in contact with sin. Mary was chosen before birth to be the Mother of God. She was immaculately conceived so that she bore no original sin to pass on in the womb to Jesus. During the time in history when the heirarchy of the Roman Catholic church was debating about the immaculate conception of Mary, Our Lady appeared to a young girl by the name of Bernadette and spoke to her. Bernadette was asked by Mary to give a message to her priest. When Bernadette asked Mary who she should say has sent her, Our Lady's response was, " I am the Immaculate Conception. Tell him the Immaculate Conception has sent you with the message." Since Bernadette was a poor, illiterate child who had no knowledge of the debate going on within the heirarchy of the church, the priest believed that she had indeed seen and spoke with Our Lady. This was all investigated by the Church and declared a miracle. So Mary had appeared and given them their answer herself. As further proof she promised that all who bathed in the water from the stream that ran forth from the grotto she appeared in would be healed. There are documented cases where that healing did take place even in our time. In the 2000 year history of the RC Church there have only been two doctrines declared "excathedra" ( meaning infallible ) by a Pope and they were both Marion doctrines. The Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary. Mary's body, like Jesus's body, has never been found. The apostles of Jesus witnessed her being assumed into heaven, body and soul. Just as Jesus ascended into heaven body and soul. A person born with original sin could not be assumed into heaven body and soul.

Jesus was not just another man. He was God Incarnate. God himself being born of woman and becoming man but not just like one of us. Sin and especially the original sin that separated man from God did not taint him as it does us. All of our lives we have to struggle to converse with God, we have to struggle to become whole inside, without the inner conflicts, fear, and ego hang ups that keep us from being one with God. We have to strive all our lives to be one with God and one within ourselves. That is because of original sin from the fall. Jesus was never touched by that and was never separated from God.

Jesus never married. If you read scripture you see that Mary traveled with her son. There is no mention of Joseph after Jesus was found by his parents in the temple at the age of 12. Unless Mary was a widow she would not have been traveling with Jesus on his mission. Also when Jesus was crucified Mary was at the foot of the cross. Along with her was Jesus's youngest desciple, John. From the cross Jesus handed his mother over to the care of John. If Jesus had other brothers he would not have entrusted his mother into the care of John... " Woman behold thy son." Then looking at John he said, " Behold thy mother." From that day forth John took care of Mary. According to Jewish law the care of the mother would have passed on to one of Jesus's brothers or a relative. That alone tells us that Jesus had no siblings or relatives at the time of his death. Also, just an aside here, that is why Catholics pray to Our Lady. Because when John handed Mary over to his disciple and said "behold thy Mother" he was speaking of all his disciples from that day to eternity. So Catholics esteem Mary for all the reasons I gave here, but from this passage in Scripture we consider her Our Mother as well. And not just Catholics either but all mankind.

I agree with Prox in that there have been many enlightened men and women throughout history, Buddha and Muhammed included, there have been many saints and prophets but none just like Jesus in that he was divine. And it was only because Jesus who himself was without sin, by his own free will, took all the sins of the world on himself, and suffered and died for our sins. He did that so we could once again become one with God. Our sins can now be forgiven because with his last breath Jesus said, "forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do." He was the lamb of God who sacrificed himself out of love for the whole world.

We don't have to read a book or search very far to know who the descendents of Jesus are. We only have to look around us to know the descendents of Jesus. It is me, you and everyone in the world who has ever lived and who will ever live. The descendent of Jesus are those who seek God and the oneness of all creation, who help others, who love, who seek truth and justice, who suffer and die. We are all descendents of Jesus because we were all created by God and he was God.

Love, Connie

Hi guys...

I on the other hand completely resonated with the book and all it said. Their were many historical facts and references all through it and alot of interesting history about the church (which I already knew about from prevous study). As for the issue of Jesus' divinity... I believe he was as human as you and I, but a very wise and inflentual teacher/master.

One day, there was an animated discussion going on at work about God and religion. We each had our opinions and beliefs. Then one of my Scorpio colleagues spoke up, "Do you guys know what really matters? Be kind and help others. That is enough."

And you know what? He's right. If you look at this thread objectively, it's just a bunch of beliefs and it doesn't matter what you believe in either way. What matters is how your beliefs lead you to act and think and feel. Ultimately, does it matter if Jesus was divine or human? Maybe we need to pay more attention to his message. "What I can do, so can you."

I hear ya and agree Suchi...

The purpose of my thread was to discuss this book, and I asked if anyone had read it. So far, no one who has read it has responded.

Suchi, I totally agree with what you said about the message being more important and how we in our daily lives attempt to carry out that message by helping others and bringing love into the world through how we think and feel. I also agree that we all have our own beliefs and should respect each other's beliefs.

On the subject of respecting each other's beliefs I would have to say that yes, it does matter to a Christian whenever the question of Jesus's divinity is brought up. Prox and I gave our opinion as Christians and that is all we did here on this thread. We were addressing what we know the author of the book is promoting.

I have never understood why it is that whenever a Christian gives his thoughts or viewpoints and relates to others the things he/she takes on faith by what the heart knows that it is taken as preaching by others or trying to force their religion on others. That is a preception that comes from those Christians who go about doing that but it does not apply to ALL Christians. For that reason all Christians who give their opinion when a subject is brought up should not have that image thrust on them. There was no attempt here on either mine of Prox's part to preach or in any way to cram our beliefs down the throats of anyone else. As much as I like Prox and respect his opinions and intelligence he doesn't even believe in the immaculate conception and that's okay we me. But it is something to chew on and think about anyway rather than to immediately dismiss and I think he would agree on that.

In my post I was merely explaining why I believe in the divinity of Jesus and passing on what Scripture says and what I was taught. Any time I give my opinion or relate what I was taught it is going to be a Roman Catholic viewpoint because that IS what I was taught and that IS my Faith. It was a Faith I chose but I also take something from other faiths as well. Ruling out the cults, they all contain truth. I don't discredit anyone else's faith or tell anyone they should be or think like a Roman Catholic. I feel if we present other viewpoints in the form of a book that questions the divinity of Jesus and gives the authors interpretation of historical facts to support his opinion and promote his agenda, then it is only fair for those who think otherwise to do the same thing. Then we have more than just one opinion and one viewpoint to make our decisions on.

There was no argument here as far I could see. Prox gave his viewpoint and I gave mine. The book gives it's viewpoint. If we are going to discuss one viewpoint then it is only fair to allow an opposing viewpoint. Even in Christianity there are those who believe that Jesus had siblings and give little credit to Mary as his mother. There are even some Roman Catholics that question rather or not Jesus had siblings. Rather Jesus had siblings or not does not take away from his divinity at all or what he taught and did. But we have to ask ourselves would anyone, being just human or a great prophet know all that Jesus knew or do what he did? That is the point that Prox was making I think when he implied that mere men and women just don't have it in us to do that. We just don't have the capacity to love that way or that much. Not even the greatest spiritual teachers or prophets had it in them to do what Jesus did.

I disagree with what the book says from what I know about it, which doesn't mean that I wouldn't read it. It's okay with me that Kel does agree with the book. She is an intelligent, thinking person who has a right to form her own opinions like anyone else. I believe in the Immaculate Conception but it's okay with me if Prox or anyone else doesn't believe as I do about it. There are things that I was taught that I still question and others that I don't believe at this time. Even Lisa still questions Jesus's divinity. She has asked me "How do we know that Jesus was all they say he is? How do we know for sure that he was not just some man who said he was all that?" So I do what I did here. I tell her what I believe and what I know from what I learned from my faith but I would never tell her to stop questioning it and just accept it on my say so or the say so of the RC Church. Questioning is one of the most important things in coming to truth. We should never stop questioning.

The message of Jesus IS what is most important. For us it is most important to hear the message and try to live it. But Jesus's divinity does matter to a Christian. Many Christians worship God in the form of the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The 3 ways that God has revealed himself/herself to us. There is no separation in the Trinity, no lesser or greater in the Trinity. The book implies that there is. If Jesus is not divine then we are blowing away over 2000 years of Christian history that has it's roots and whole history based on that belief.

Love, Connie

I'm sorry, if I made you guys feel defensive. That was not my intention. Nor was I implying that you were pushing your beliefs down our throats, Connie. I was reacting to what Darwin said, more than anything else. And this is a reaction that has been building up over some time. I'm still not as clear about his religious stand and willingness or unwillingness to push his beliefs down others' throats, so his post pushed some buttons. On the other hand, your post did no such thing, even though you were equally emphatic about your beliefs. That is because, I know for sure that you're not the kind to proclaim that your way is the only way.

I must admit to being allergic to the kind of beliefs that negate people's right to believe otherwise. And I also get tired of arguments about whose beliefs are right or wrong, because I think that ultimately these arguments are not what matter and people waste their time on non-issues. All this is ofcourse my own opinion and I don't expect everybody to agree with me.

Hi there!
As a young girl I was brought up in Italy as a Roman catholic, I remember having to go to confession, and having nothing to confess, so I used to make "sins" up.
I find that with many religions people tend to give their power away to something outside themselves, I beleive that we have God within and that we are Gods if only we realise, and that we are all divine like Jesus was. Evy

Hi evy

That's what I believe too!

PS I was raised Roman Catholic too.

I guess I do get defensive about that, Suchi. I can't blame others who get apprehensive whenever the subject of religious beliefs come up because there are so many Christians who make it hard on the rest of us by going around telling everyone they are right and anyone who thinks differently is wrong. That makes it hard on all of us. I have encountered that with people too and I feel the same way you do about it. But we have to be careful not to allow those types of people, who are really into religion for control reasons anyway, to turn us off to Christianity as a whole. Once again it all makes what Ghandi said come to mind and all the more true: " The only thing wrong with Christianity is the Christians." And in his life he lived the Christian message more fully than any Christian of his time.

Here we may be comparing apples to oranges anyway. The book, "The Da Vinci Code" which is on the best seller list, is a book of fiction. It is really a murder mystery that uses rumors and partial historical facts as a background. When we talk about history anyway we have to keep in mind that history itself can be unfactual because history can be biased and distorted and in many cases it has been. I am thinking of how the Native Americans have been depicted by history. They were not presented as a people who were defending their land and their way of life against the hordes of white men (mostly self-professed Christians) who immigrated to America and deemed their way the only way to live. Then decided that it was God's will that they annihilate the Native American people. The white man believed that it was manifest destiny that the land should be theirs. White men wrote the history of that time and it definity depicted the Native American people as savages and them as the good guys. The truth has come to light in recent times as truth always will in the end. The history of many of our Presidents has come to light as well. What I learned in school of history as a child I now know to be to a large degree complete garbage and definitely biased.

Regarding Mary Magdelene - who biblical scholars have come to believe is the same Mary who had a sister called Martha and brother called Nazareth that Jesus brought back from the dead as an example of his own coming resurrection - she was a very muched loved disciple of Jesus. I think that what we do when we read this story is that we want to place human love between a man and woman onto Jesus because it is the only love we know. Which makes it real hard for us to have good friends of the opposite sex without others thinking more is going on than friendship and that is a whole other topic I could go on about. The point I am trying to make here is that Jesus, being divine and having complete understanding of his human emotions and being in complete control of himself - being one within himself and untainted by original sin - did not love the way we love. He loved with the divine love of God that sees only the soul of the person, not the gender. He did not see Mary in a sexual way. Would Jesus forgive Mary her sins of adultery only to turn around and commit adultery with her himself? Would Jesus, being God himself and therefore incapable of sin or evil, have a "tryst" with a woman producing offsprings out of wedlock? That is what the theory - and it is only a theory- presents to us. We as humans, as much as we can love, only possess but a miniscule of God's love. We simply do not have the capacity to love as much as God does. Jesus did have that capacity being of divine origin. That is something we need to remember when we try to read what is contained in Scripture regarding Jesus. We place human characteristics on God because it is the only way we as humans can relate to him. So we argue among ourselves whether God is a male or female. To me that is ridculous because God is a Spiritual being, not a human being. We are only male and female because of the need to reproduce and keep the species going. But our souls have no gender. Jesus saw the soul and only the soul of Mary Magdelene.

The book, though I haven't read it yet, sounds like it makes a good mystery novel with a religious background but that a Da Vinci code exists at all is merely a theory. I have come to think as I do about the relationship of Jesus and Mary Magdelene from questioning that myself. There was a time when I did ponder the possibility of a male/female love there. Then I came to real-eyes that I was putting human love and only human love onto Jesus and he was much more than just human.

Those are just my thoughts on it all.

Love, Connie

hi veneo,

i read the book and thought it was a fun read, cover to cover. not many like it

in joy,

amy

Hi Kel~

I've heard a great deal about the book, but have not read it yet...(I haven't read much lately...need to take time out to do that..*sigh*)

From what I understand, the information that is in the book, is not new...but I understand the info is set within a "fictional" plot...

Does it have anything to do with Jesus having been married to Mary Magdelene? (Linda kinda hinted at something like that, herself..) I've heard the rumors...

As for Jesus being divine...(sorry I have NOT read all the posts yet..they are long and I will get back to them) I was once into a metaphysical study which proclaimed that Jesus was human and Christ was Divine. (Edgar Cayce also says that)....

I know that sounds confusing....but the study I was into at the time, said that when Jesus who was human, but of a very HIGH ORDER (one known as a Master), was baptized by his cousin John...Jesus left his body (like astro projection, I guess), and Christ WHO IS DIVINE entered. That's when the white dove appeared. Same body....different entities....so it was Christ who was divine a most holy angel also known as Melchizadek....It was my understanding that being divine, he has special powers to "remove karma" (take away the sins of the world), that mankind had put upon itself for many hundeds of years....

Not trying to convince anyone of anything....just presenting another perspective...

Love,
Rainbow

Hi Amy and Rainbow...

Glad you enjoyed the book Amy, so did I. I was just at Dan Brown's site to see what eles he had to say, and am going to post a link to his FAQ page.

Rainbow, thanks for explaining what that meant (about Jesus and Christ), I have heard mention of it, but never an explaination... Interesting, sounds like a walk-in like experience.

Here's the link from Dan Brown's site:

http://www.danbrown.com/novels/davinci_code/faqs.html

did you try the other puzzles there too? it was fun shining a mirror on a certain picture

Kel~ thanks for the link....pretty interesting...

Love,
Rainbow

Dear Kel,:)

I haven't had the opportunity of reading it, but I am very interested in doing so.
I like reading about controversial issues, I belive it's the best way to form our own beliefs. So, as soon as my aunt lends me her boo, I will come back to tell you what I thought.

Hi Suchi, I agree with you, I respect everybody's belief, because everyone's beliefs are different, we each have our own road, different from everybody elses.

Love

Tish

Amy... no, I haven't tried them yet. I will have to check them out the next time I go there.

I'm glad you found it interesting Rainbow.

Tish, I think you will really enjoy it, and am anxious to discuss it with you. I'd loan the copy I read to my Mom (since she wants to read it), but it's Krista's boyfriends book, so I plan to give it back to him this weekend.

On your last comment there Dear... So True, So True!

Kelly.....I just read the first six chapters of The Da Vinci Code at the website you posted (a little teaser)....

....and now I'm hooked....I've got to get the book....So anxous to read the rest...*sigh*....not to mention my surprise learning of the existence of that secret society...Opus whatever... (I had never heard of it before but looked it up on a search engine)....I'm intrigued!

I'll let you know when I've finished the book....Oh BTW how many chapters are there????

I'm headed back to see more stuff on the site...

Love,
Rainbow

Wow Kel, that link makes me want to read the book. I hadn't heard of it before. Very interesting, and fascinating to me, has anyone been to the Vatican? It's very amazing and powerful and quite spooky too. Could these secrets be some of the Pope's seven secrets? I look forward to reading the book- I'll look out for it and let you know what I think afterwards.

Hi Guys,

Rainbow, I missed an earlier question of yours... yes, the book does discuss the relationship of Jesus and Mary M as being that of husband and wife.

The book has 105 chapters (most of which are 2-3 pages long), and the book itself has 454 pages.

I'm glad to hear that the link has given more than one of you the desire to read it... it is really good. I like the fact that it's a mystery novel set in a historical context. It makes reading this kind of stuff all that more interesting and not dry.

evy, you've been to the Vatican... how ! My Mom's been there, but I've never been to Europe or the UK before (at least not in this lifetime).

Hi Rainbow, I'm asking with my eyes shut, because I haven't visisted the site,

But, do you remember the full name of the sect? Could it have been "Opus Dei",??? we have that one here, it is a fairly large religiuos organization. I am not too fond of it, my grandma attended it, and my sons went to their school when very small. Later I cahnged them from school, because I didn't like their religiuos views...

Tish

Hi Tish,

I can answer that for you...

Yes, and No. The secret society that is spoken of in the book is called The Priory of Sion.

The Opus Dei is the deeply devout sect of the Catholic church that is also included in this book/story.

Here is what Dan Brown says about them in the front of the book listed as a fact:

"The Vatican prelature known as the Opus Dei is a deeply devout Catholic sect that has been the topic of recent controversy due to the reports of brainwashing, coercion, and a dangerous practice known as "coporal mortification." Opus Dei has just completed construction of a $47 million National Headquarters at 243 Lexington Avenue in New York City."

Hi everyone!
Having not read the book, it's difficult for me to comment. But there's so many religious organizations and sects found to be corrupt these days that it would'nt surprise me if the quote from the book about Opus Dei is true or partly true.
Tish, what was it about their religious views that you did'nt like?
I suppose that if they were coercive and brainwashing they would'nt say it on their website!