--let me start with this...

Your hearts know in silence the secrets of the days and the nights.
But your ears thirst for the sound of your heart's knowledge.
You would know in words that which you have always known in thought.
You would touch with your fingers the naked body of your dreams.

And it is well you should.
The hidden well-spring of your soul must needs rise and run murmuring to the sea;
And the treasure of your infinite depths would be revealed to your eyes...

(excerpt from The Prophet - Kahlil Gibran)

[This message has been edited by MS AVC (edited 12-09-2000).]

BlakeHeart, I'm glad your daughters' initials are same as my username...Lisa is the name of my Pisces-bestfriend, growing up.

You asked my thoughts (New Book thread) on Saturn in the 12th house. My first inspiration, to share, is the poetry. Complex...I'm putting together some ideas to add here later, probably today. Also, like I mentioned in other thread, maybe we can exchange email for some of it. There's quite a lot to it. I don't know a whole lot about the advanced language of astrology yet, I'm learning. I'd like to hear your thoughts on Saturn and the 12th house? You probably know more from the astro perspective. I'll add more too.

With Love,
MS AVC

I've been reading from the book, Twelve Faces of Saturn: Your Guardian Angel Planet-by Bil Tierney...anyone read this one? It'd be grand to hear thoughts on it--the book or subject.

Hello MS AVC,
Saturn ~ Your Guardian Angel Planet!

Sounds good with me,,,

What if Saturnus helping us stay immortal here on earth.

Angelika,

You have a very sweet, sunshine-y way of seeing things

It's always nice to have your comments ...
and yes! Saturn is Good!!! Saturn is neccesary, and Saturn we could not do with any less. Maybe it's Angelika's daily cheeriness, but right now Saturn seems Right On! ...except of course, those times we're feeling a littl sensitive

BTW I thought about putting a few links here later, but haven't done that before, so need to check on how-to.

With Love,
MS AVC

Is anyone's 12th house empty? I would not be suprised if yours is, Angelika!

Dear Blakeheart and Ms AVC, I too, have Saturn in the 12th house!! From March & McEvers Learn Astrology Volume 1:SATURN IN THE 12TH HOUSE key word: circumspect

quote:

---

Morbidly sensitive, you are inclined to isolate yourself or else to live with a constant wish to retreat. You enjoy solitude, your creativity flows when you work by yourself, but too much isolation will lead to loneliness and fear. Because you are tied down to respectability and accepted mores, you tend to keep your problems locked up within yourself. This can lead to a life-is-against-me attitude. You must cultivate an optimistic outlook and a hope for the future. You should get away from self centered attitudes and learn to serve humanity or those close to you. With difficult aspects, your father may have faded out of your life early.

---

keep passing open windows .........
and remember your life can change with each breath you take

Nephthys,

You'd mentioned in my -new here- thread you're on west coast also, yeah? Did you grow up in Bay Area?-I did. I think you said birth-year is also '65? And, like me, are you too the combination--Saturn in Pisces - Saturn in 12th? --in Earth Sun sign no less? If I've got all this right, I think we can relate....even just half-right.

MS AVC

[This message has been edited by MS AVC (edited 11-30-2000).]

Dear Ra

If I have a planet here or there, what does it matter?
It only influences me if I want to.

No surprises! 7 april 1967 16:29 57n43 12e57.

MS AVC

Thank you!
Saturn has to do with high age, so how old will we be?

Angelika

I'm not certain how Saturn influences the years in ones lifespan, from an astrological point of view. I gather there are numerous points in a natal chart that indicate age/years--and I'm a fairly new student of the astro-scheme--don't really know those, yet.

With Love,
MS AVE

from the book I've mentioned, I'll add some of the authors' words on the Esoteric level of Saturn (this is just one angle-there are several themes covered--i.e. esoteric, karmic, mythological, psychological, astronomical, etc.)....

Esoteric Saturn

.....according to Theosophy and other esoteric schools of thought, all life in our solar system, and thus all consciousness, is considered to originate from the Creative Being (Solar Logos) whose most dense vehicle of expression (physical body) is the Sun. The Solar Logos is that Exalted Consciousness that humankind calls God. When our solar system was ready to reappear in physical form (apparently it has manifested twice before, countless eons ago), Saturn is said to be the first planet to be constructed. The first of the Planetary Logoi to adopt a vehicle of matter was therefore that Great One who now ensouls the planet Saturn.
Thus, Saturn is the Elder One who had the initial responsibility of imposing the basic framework of earthly limitation through condensing of energy (atoms) to a point where time and space could come into being through our consciousness. Some occult schools have called Saturn the Keeper of the Records, since it is said to record all impressions of energy made on the Akashic ethers from the physical plane. Saturn uses this data to protect the evolution of life by enforcing the exacting laws of karma. Saturn acts as our divine agent of ultimate justice, balance, and wisdom, teaching us to endure all self-perpetuated hardships and frustrations until a state of soul perfection has been reached.
During the involuntary arc of experience (creating a plane of manifestation), Saturn increases and concentrates our sense of separate identity. This helps us to establish a basic sense of personal ego-consciousness. During this phase of Saturns influence, we are to experience a dualistic awareness of life....
...Saturn has been called the guardian planet of Earth. It seeks optimum development of the physical form side of life. It constantly recycles matter and, through the gradual but exacting process of evolution, guarantees that Spirit will find conscious vehicles through which it can express itself. Saturn is the most crucial planet for our evolutionary development as ego-centered individuals and as a separate human kingdom. At any particular stage in life, this Dweller on the Threshold exhibits the wisdom to provide us with the most suitable testing experiences designed to allow us a clearer understanding of that which still must be developed or fulfilled in our consciousness.

and here are some of the authors words concerning Saturn in the Twelfth House

...the Twelfth House is the perfect place to retreat when we want to get away from the bustling, hectic world and find a little tranquility. Peace and quiet are much what this house is all about, even though paradoxically the Twelfth House also drums up nightmarish images...

...for Saturn, it's the silent places of the soul that are most sought after.
Saturn can never get that far away from its ability to be aware of form and limitation. Saturn retreats to the Twelfth House to deeply contemplate why things turn out the way they do. Saturn will dig deeply to understand the purpose behind the endings of situations and relationships, especially when they've ended badly or without sufficient explanations. The Twelfth House is where we hide a lot of our loose ends, but Saturn always finds them and gets very anxious. However, its strong point is organizational power, which is no easy feat in this house of formlessness and anti-matter. What could be suggested is soul structuring, where we learn to build consciousness carefully on our most internal levels. Saturn is learning not to fear the limitless world of the spirit within. By establishing a meditative atmosphere where stillness is emphasized, we can learn to recognize the reality of our spirtual self and feel its constant, protective presence. Saturn always wants a solid connection wherever it's located, and in the Twelfth House, we have an ability to bring more of our Higher Self into earthly manifestation, perhaps through the power of visualization. But first we have to dissolve a lot of barriers that block our path to such self awareness.

....Saturn does call for a sensible embrace of both spirit and matter. Making peace with being in the world while doing what we can to bring peace would be a goal to envision, but Saturn needs to know how far it can realistically fulfill this dream to avoid disenchantment.

....we need to do some honest, self-confrontation to determine if we are allowing imaginary limitations to hem us in.

For some of us, our interest in self-preservation (Saturn) or our preoccupation with unconditional safety (Twelfth House and Saturn) can be almost morbid. Inhibitive Saturn helps foster psychological repressions that can hide away and incubate for long periods of time. If not broken down and released through an active attempt at self-realization, these repressed parts can become chronic problems for our psyche....
....this is only part of the puzzle for Saturn in the Twelfth House. There are redeeming elements as well, since the Twelfth House in many ways exists for the hopes of soul renewal and the affirmation of the fresh and innocent cycle soon to be experienced in the First House.

This can be a house of sacrifices, made more karmic by Saturn's presence here. Saturn tests character through restrictions and denials, and here it falls into a sector of private sorrows and disappointments.
We need contact with our Twelfth House to help us renew our soul whenever we have become too immersed in our material roles and weighed down by our practical responsibilies.
....Saturn is a planet that can help us develop true wisdom.

....Saturn can imply that as we grow and experience more of what the world has to offer, we can show a determination to pierce trhough the illusions of our lives and see a clearer comprehension of the external realities of existence.

What are our best assets here? A serious concern for community welfare and even global peace is found.

Saturn is a very self-contained planet, but the Twelfth House is where we engage in more selfless activities in which our ego and our I-consciousness often take a back seat. Saturn does what it can to protect our ego, which has a right to shine in each and every house. So here is a point of conflict: Saturn can put the brakes on Twelfth House attempts to dissolve our ego's boundaries.

....it could also be that we need to fortify our ego to protect ourselves from the uncontrolled flow of images and energies from the unconscious. These could prove overwhelming and disruptive to the -normal-waking consciousness. It would be like never coming out of the dream state, and that could really terrify Saturn.

We may learn a lot---maybe the hard way---about spiritual love and humility. What we probably most need to learn on the ego-level is how to serve people uncomplainingly and without petty criticism of the imperfections of others.

Learning to develop all the structure we need from within keeps us feeling safe and sane, and we find we are strong enough to give much of ourselves to the world for all the right reasons.

Which is the sign which get younger with age?
Capricorn.

Saturnus is Capricorns ruler.

Saturnus immortality?

Hi Ms AVC, Yes, I am from Marin County. What about you? Yes I am a Taurus Sun, Aries Moon, Aries Rising and my Saturn is in the 12th house in Pisces, and I am morbidly sensitive and my father did fade out of my life early (death). I didn't read all of your long posts due to my short attention span haha but I will try!!! Next you will tell me that you know me? Ok who are you? ....... keep passing open windows your life can change with each breath you take

Hello MS AVC and all!
Wow, so much to take in and think about!
Thanks for the info, AVC.
A lot of what I read really hit home.

As I look back on my life, it is the times of solitude that really brought about spiritual growth within me.
There were 3 distinct periods of isolation in my life. The first 2 when I was young were involuntary due to moving. Those times I really went inward, creatively flourishing through poetry. The third instance was only about a year and a half ago, and another move, but this time I was older and chose to move away from friends and the city to a little town in the country. In a way I felt a desparate need to escape to SAVE myself.
Up until that point I lived an extroverted life with many friends and an active social life, but in a way I felt it eating away at my growth.
And since the latest move, I have felt like I have blossomed spiritually and I can feel my spirit growing and opening up to new insights and intuitions.
I am sensitive, but I don't think morbidly so. Maybe that is due to the Aries placement. And also I do feel optimistic about the future, and maybe that is because I am a Saggitarian.
Another personal note is that my Saturn in Aries in the 12th is in opposition to Venus in Libra in the 6th. Perhaps my lesson in life is to somehow balance my feeling of duty and serving others (6th house) and my need to be with others (Libra) with the need to assert my independance(Aries) and need for solitude (12th). It does seem to be a significant theme in my life.

But, anyway, enough about me(no, I'm not self-centered! really I'm not! lol )
I think that Saturn's placement in the 12th could be a strong indication of karmic intuitions. Especially in dreams, as the 12th house relates to the dream world, past lives and spiritual cleansing.
Have you had past-life recall in dreams, MS AVC and Nephthys?
Also an astrologer on another site once told me that Saturn in the 12th showed a strong link to institutions of some sort in the life time... ...none yet here and sounds scary to me! lol

I'll take time to ponder on all the Saturnian wisdom here and get back with you.
Yes, I would like to exchange emails, AVC, if you are still interested. Let me know and I'll contact Greg with the info.

Oh, and loved the poetry of Kahlil Gibran
Haven't read that book in years! Maybe It's time to re-read it!
Take care, Lisa

[This message has been edited by BlakeHeart (edited 11-30-2000).]

Ah, Angelika, you are a natural!

Dear Ra

Why do you think Saturnus has got such bad reputation? Why have earthpeople forgotten about immortality?

Good-December-morning all,

just waking here...
Nephythys, I'm from C.C.County--right near the base of Mt Diablo. One of my brothers lived in Marin County, Mill Vally until recently--within walking distance to some of the trails up beautiful Mt. Tam.

There were some other angles I wanted to add to this subject. I'll look around for that info. Need to take the dog out for a spin, too.

Lisa, do send Greg the email request

Your responses hit home with me too. I need to wake up a little more though before adding to it.

MS AVC

Dear Magic-Makers,

For all of you who haven't already signed up for their FREE copy of Star Notes, I have a series of articles that deal with the Twelfth House and each planet within it.

Also there is a profile of a famous personality to help you all understand the energies at play.

Secret power exists in the 12th house if you understand how to unlock it.

Also, there is a series on the Moon's nodes, starting in the latest issue, dealing with karma and reincarnation and past life present life issues.

Hope you all enjoy them! And I hope you're all enjoying winging your way through the Galaxy with me in Galaxy Watch.

Wishign you all miracles manifest,

Neil D. Paris xxx

Hi MS AVC,
Thanks for starting this interesting thread. It is so nice to have you here! I haven't forgotten your request to find out more about my Sepl8 friend's planets, but he is away so am waiting for the info.
My l2th house (Leo) has Pluto in it. My personal chart from Lindaland talks about my age group for this planet. Do you have any idea generally what Pluto in the l2th house would mean individually?
Saturn seems to be where the "heaviness" in my chart is, though it is in my third house (Sagittarius). My husband and mother are Sagis. This is where the "testing" comes in in my life, to be sure. I have a sense that I will be tested concerning my mother's future health. With my husband I am always "tested."
Thanks again for your information, MS AVC! You've given me more to think about.
Love,
Piscesdreamer

Hello all--Piscesdreamer I'm so glad you joined in!!

I'm sorry I didn't get back with some stuff I wanted to add, my day was just a difficult one. This so far has been very enlightening, reading what everyone has to say. I realize it's a heavy subject, so, please add when feeling up to it-as I will

Hey, this has got me laughting now!!
Trying to edit my last post-to say what a bad day I've had-and it wouldn't let me

anyway, here's what I was adding...

Oh, yes, almost forgot (you know these type of days?)-I may write a little more tonight, or as soon as possible.

With Love,
MS AVC

PS looks like I ended up writing more after all hahaha

Hi, Everyone!
Yes, MS AVC, I know the days you are talking about!
I just contacted Greg about exchanging emails.

Piscesdreamer,
My curiousity was very piqued about your Pluto in the 12th. It seemed liked such a heavy influence, so I checked it out in a book of mine called The Only Way To Learn Astrology Vol.1.
It said:

Pluto in the 12th House
keyword: isolating

Pluto in the 12th house can bring you face to face with temptation. You must gently uncover your fears and frustrations and bring them out of your subconcious with patience and understanding. You need to change your inner attitudes; this is difficult because you are reluctant to change the course of your life. You work best behing the scenes, and you understand others' limitations. With challenging aspects, you may have some psychological problems, perhaps even be confined. You may feel pain, both physical and mental, from obscure or unidentified sources.

Saturn in the 3rd House:
keyword: careful

You are patient, tactful and matter-of-fact. You probably had some difficulties with your siblings and grew up feeling lonely.
This position of Saturn may indicate a lack of good early education or a lack of love in your childhood home. An able correspondant, you speak well with a mind that is penetrating and capable of good concentration. Your lungs are not strong, and you may have ungrounded fears about anything that is new. Hard aspects make you feel picked-on, or lead to a feeling of inadequacy or depression.

Well, if I found out more, I'll let you know.
Seems as if there should be so much more to it than that, but that is just that book's say so.
I don't know if this is true or not, but Pluto in the 12th gives me the impression of a soul seriously hard at work in this life-time dealing with past karma, perhaps in such a strong way, that this is the last life-time that that specific karma will be an issue. And definately more indication of past-life recall through dreams and because of the intensity of Pluto, perhaps in waking concious too.
What do you all think?
Lisa

hello everyone,

Lisa, thanks for requesting email exchange-I'm not certain how to do it, and have noticed some may be going about it with difficulty.

Just lately I've been awhirl in such vast thought that I've exhausted my ability to express myself clearly. I was so pleased with your descriptions of your life's-experience-Saturn in the 12th-and have much to say but, especially yesterday, was lacking for words to keep up with my thoughts.
Neverless, I'm commited to continue with understanding this--it's crucial to me. I'm so glad to have found others' with the same identification. It doesn't happen overnight, for sure, but to keep on is the only way to fulfillment.

With Love,
MS AVC

Dear Lisa,
You have been so kind to look up things in my chart. I knew I had a "heavy" chart, and you sure confirmed it! The things you wrote ring very true for me. Have had many tests and obstacles and never much help from others. Not whining about it but it seems true that I have had much to deal with and have sometimes thought it would have been so much easier not to have been born at all!
Childhood isolation--yes, even though oldest of eight was left to my own to sink or swim, and both I have done! Thanks for your help. I did not intend to change the subject of the thread.
Hope you Saturn in l2ths have it better than I do!
Love,
Piscesdreamer