Your hearts know in silence the secrets of the days and the nights.
But your ears thirst for the sound of your heart's knowledge.
You would know in words that which you have always known in thought.
You would touch with your fingers the naked body of your dreams.

And it is well you should.
The hidden well-spring of your soul must needs rise and run murmuring to the sea;
And the treasure of your infinite depths would be revealed to your eyes...

(excerpt from The Prophet - Kahlil Gibran)

[This message has been edited by MS AVC (edited 12-09-2000).]

You asked my thoughts (New Book thread) on Saturn in the 12th house. My first inspiration, to share, is the poetry. Complex...I'm putting together some ideas to add here later, probably today. Also, like I mentioned in other thread, maybe we can exchange email for some of it. There's quite a lot to it. I don't know a whole lot about the advanced language of astrology yet, I'm learning. I'd like to hear your thoughts on Saturn and the 12th house? You probably know more from the astro perspective. I'll add more too.

With Love,
MS AVC

Sounds good with me,,,

What if Saturnus helping us stay immortal here on earth.

You have a very sweet, sunshine-y way of seeing things

It's always nice to have your comments ...
and yes! Saturn is Good!!! Saturn is neccesary, and Saturn we could not do with any less. Maybe it's Angelika's daily cheeriness, but right now Saturn seems Right On! ...except of course, those times we're feeling a littl sensitive

BTW I thought about putting a few links here later, but haven't done that before, so need to check on how-to.

With Love,
MS AVC

quote:

---

Morbidly sensitive, you are inclined to isolate yourself or else to live with a constant wish to retreat. You enjoy solitude, your creativity flows when you work by yourself, but too much isolation will lead to loneliness and fear. Because you are tied down to respectability and accepted mores, you tend to keep your problems locked up within yourself. This can lead to a life-is-against-me attitude. You must cultivate an optimistic outlook and a hope for the future. You should get away from self centered attitudes and learn to serve humanity or those close to you. With difficult aspects, your father may have faded out of your life early.

---

keep passing open windows .........
and remember your life can change with each breath you take

You'd mentioned in my -new here- thread you're on west coast also, yeah? Did you grow up in Bay Area?-I did. I think you said birth-year is also '65? And, like me, are you too the combination--Saturn in Pisces - Saturn in 12th? --in Earth Sun sign no less? If I've got all this right, I think we can relate....even just half-right.

MS AVC

[This message has been edited by MS AVC (edited 11-30-2000).]

If I have a planet here or there, what does it matter?
It only influences me if I want to.

No surprises! 7 april 1967 16:29 57n43 12e57.

MS AVC

Thank you!
Saturn has to do with high age, so how old will we be?

I'm not certain how Saturn influences the years in ones lifespan, from an astrological point of view. I gather there are numerous points in a natal chart that indicate age/years--and I'm a fairly new student of the astro-scheme--don't really know those, yet.

With Love,
MS AVE

Esoteric Saturn

.....according to Theosophy and other esoteric schools of thought, all life in our solar system, and thus all consciousness, is considered to originate from the Creative Being (Solar Logos) whose most dense vehicle of expression (physical body) is the Sun. The Solar Logos is that Exalted Consciousness that humankind calls God. When our solar system was ready to reappear in physical form (apparently it has manifested twice before, countless eons ago), Saturn is said to be the first planet to be constructed. The first of the Planetary Logoi to adopt a vehicle of matter was therefore that Great One who now ensouls the planet Saturn.
Thus, Saturn is the Elder One who had the initial responsibility of imposing the basic framework of earthly limitation through condensing of energy (atoms) to a point where time and space could come into being through our consciousness. Some occult schools have called Saturn the Keeper of the Records, since it is said to record all impressions of energy made on the Akashic ethers from the physical plane. Saturn uses this data to protect the evolution of life by enforcing the exacting laws of karma. Saturn acts as our divine agent of ultimate justice, balance, and wisdom, teaching us to endure all self-perpetuated hardships and frustrations until a state of soul perfection has been reached.
During the involuntary arc of experience (creating a plane of manifestation), Saturn increases and concentrates our sense of separate identity. This helps us to establish a basic sense of personal ego-consciousness. During this phase of Saturns influence, we are to experience a dualistic awareness of life....
...Saturn has been called the guardian planet of Earth. It seeks optimum development of the physical form side of life. It constantly recycles matter and, through the gradual but exacting process of evolution, guarantees that Spirit will find conscious vehicles through which it can express itself. Saturn is the most crucial planet for our evolutionary development as ego-centered individuals and as a separate human kingdom. At any particular stage in life, this Dweller on the Threshold exhibits the wisdom to provide us with the most suitable testing experiences designed to allow us a clearer understanding of that which still must be developed or fulfilled in our consciousness.

...the Twelfth House is the perfect place to retreat when we want to get away from the bustling, hectic world and find a little tranquility. Peace and quiet are much what this house is all about, even though paradoxically the Twelfth House also drums up nightmarish images...

...for Saturn, it's the silent places of the soul that are most sought after.
Saturn can never get that far away from its ability to be aware of form and limitation. Saturn retreats to the Twelfth House to deeply contemplate why things turn out the way they do. Saturn will dig deeply to understand the purpose behind the endings of situations and relationships, especially when they've ended badly or without sufficient explanations. The Twelfth House is where we hide a lot of our loose ends, but Saturn always finds them and gets very anxious. However, its strong point is organizational power, which is no easy feat in this house of formlessness and anti-matter. What could be suggested is soul structuring, where we learn to build consciousness carefully on our most internal levels. Saturn is learning not to fear the limitless world of the spirit within. By establishing a meditative atmosphere where stillness is emphasized, we can learn to recognize the reality of our spirtual self and feel its constant, protective presence. Saturn always wants a solid connection wherever it's located, and in the Twelfth House, we have an ability to bring more of our Higher Self into earthly manifestation, perhaps through the power of visualization. But first we have to dissolve a lot of barriers that block our path to such self awareness.

....Saturn does call for a sensible embrace of both spirit and matter. Making peace with being in the world while doing what we can to bring peace would be a goal to envision, but Saturn needs to know how far it can realistically fulfill this dream to avoid disenchantment.

....we need to do some honest, self-confrontation to determine if we are allowing imaginary limitations to hem us in.

For some of us, our interest in self-preservation (Saturn) or our preoccupation with unconditional safety (Twelfth House and Saturn) can be almost morbid. Inhibitive Saturn helps foster psychological repressions that can hide away and incubate for long periods of time. If not broken down and released through an active attempt at self-realization, these repressed parts can become chronic problems for our psyche....
....this is only part of the puzzle for Saturn in the Twelfth House. There are redeeming elements as well, since the Twelfth House in many ways exists for the hopes of soul renewal and the affirmation of the fresh and innocent cycle soon to be experienced in the First House.

This can be a house of sacrifices, made more karmic by Saturn's presence here. Saturn tests character through restrictions and denials, and here it falls into a sector of private sorrows and disappointments.
We need contact with our Twelfth House to help us renew our soul whenever we have become too immersed in our material roles and weighed down by our practical responsibilies.
....Saturn is a planet that can help us develop true wisdom.

....Saturn can imply that as we grow and experience more of what the world has to offer, we can show a determination to pierce trhough the illusions of our lives and see a clearer comprehension of the external realities of existence.

What are our best assets here? A serious concern for community welfare and even global peace is found.

Saturn is a very self-contained planet, but the Twelfth House is where we engage in more selfless activities in which our ego and our I-consciousness often take a back seat. Saturn does what it can to protect our ego, which has a right to shine in each and every house. So here is a point of conflict: Saturn can put the brakes on Twelfth House attempts to dissolve our ego's boundaries.

....it could also be that we need to fortify our ego to protect ourselves from the uncontrolled flow of images and energies from the unconscious. These could prove overwhelming and disruptive to the -normal-waking consciousness. It would be like never coming out of the dream state, and that could really terrify Saturn.

We may learn a lot---maybe the hard way---about spiritual love and humility. What we probably most need to learn on the ego-level is how to serve people uncomplainingly and without petty criticism of the imperfections of others.

Learning to develop all the structure we need from within keeps us feeling safe and sane, and we find we are strong enough to give much of ourselves to the world for all the right reasons.

Saturnus is Capricorns ruler.

Saturnus immortality?

As I look back on my life, it is the times of solitude that really brought about spiritual growth within me.
There were 3 distinct periods of isolation in my life. The first 2 when I was young were involuntary due to moving. Those times I really went inward, creatively flourishing through poetry. The third instance was only about a year and a half ago, and another move, but this time I was older and chose to move away from friends and the city to a little town in the country. In a way I felt a desparate need to escape to SAVE myself.
Up until that point I lived an extroverted life with many friends and an active social life, but in a way I felt it eating away at my growth.
And since the latest move, I have felt like I have blossomed spiritually and I can feel my spirit growing and opening up to new insights and intuitions.
I am sensitive, but I don't think morbidly so. Maybe that is due to the Aries placement. And also I do feel optimistic about the future, and maybe that is because I am a Saggitarian.
Another personal note is that my Saturn in Aries in the 12th is in opposition to Venus in Libra in the 6th. Perhaps my lesson in life is to somehow balance my feeling of duty and serving others (6th house) and my need to be with others (Libra) with the need to assert my independance(Aries) and need for solitude (12th). It does seem to be a significant theme in my life.

But, anyway, enough about me(no, I'm not self-centered! really I'm not! lol )
I think that Saturn's placement in the 12th could be a strong indication of karmic intuitions. Especially in dreams, as the 12th house relates to the dream world, past lives and spiritual cleansing.
Have you had past-life recall in dreams, MS AVC and Nephthys?
Also an astrologer on another site once told me that Saturn in the 12th showed a strong link to institutions of some sort in the life time... ...none yet here and sounds scary to me! lol

I'll take time to ponder on all the Saturnian wisdom here and get back with you.
Yes, I would like to exchange emails, AVC, if you are still interested. Let me know and I'll contact Greg with the info.

Oh, and loved the poetry of Kahlil Gibran
Haven't read that book in years! Maybe It's time to re-read it!
Take care, Lisa

[This message has been edited by BlakeHeart (edited 11-30-2000).]

Dear Ra

Why do you think Saturnus has got such bad reputation? Why have earthpeople forgotten about immortality?

just waking here...
Nephythys, I'm from C.C.County--right near the base of Mt Diablo. One of my brothers lived in Marin County, Mill Vally until recently--within walking distance to some of the trails up beautiful Mt. Tam.

There were some other angles I wanted to add to this subject. I'll look around for that info. Need to take the dog out for a spin, too.

Lisa, do send Greg the email request

Your responses hit home with me too. I need to wake up a little more though before adding to it.

MS AVC

For all of you who haven't already signed up for their FREE copy of Star Notes, I have a series of articles that deal with the Twelfth House and each planet within it.

Also there is a profile of a famous personality to help you all understand the energies at play.

Secret power exists in the 12th house if you understand how to unlock it.

Also, there is a series on the Moon's nodes, starting in the latest issue, dealing with karma and reincarnation and past life present life issues.

Hope you all enjoy them! And I hope you're all enjoying winging your way through the Galaxy with me in Galaxy Watch.

Wishign you all miracles manifest,

Neil D. Paris xxx

anyway, here's what I was adding...

Oh, yes, almost forgot (you know these type of days?)-I may write a little more tonight, or as soon as possible.

With Love,
MS AVC

PS looks like I ended up writing more after all hahaha

Piscesdreamer,
My curiousity was very piqued about your Pluto in the 12th. It seemed liked such a heavy influence, so I checked it out in a book of mine called The Only Way To Learn Astrology Vol.1.
It said:

Pluto in the 12th House
keyword: isolating

Pluto in the 12th house can bring you face to face with temptation. You must gently uncover your fears and frustrations and bring them out of your subconcious with patience and understanding. You need to change your inner attitudes; this is difficult because you are reluctant to change the course of your life. You work best behing the scenes, and you understand others' limitations. With challenging aspects, you may have some psychological problems, perhaps even be confined. You may feel pain, both physical and mental, from obscure or unidentified sources.

Saturn in the 3rd House:
keyword: careful

You are patient, tactful and matter-of-fact. You probably had some difficulties with your siblings and grew up feeling lonely.
This position of Saturn may indicate a lack of good early education or a lack of love in your childhood home. An able correspondant, you speak well with a mind that is penetrating and capable of good concentration. Your lungs are not strong, and you may have ungrounded fears about anything that is new. Hard aspects make you feel picked-on, or lead to a feeling of inadequacy or depression.

Well, if I found out more, I'll let you know.
Seems as if there should be so much more to it than that, but that is just that book's say so.
I don't know if this is true or not, but Pluto in the 12th gives me the impression of a soul seriously hard at work in this life-time dealing with past karma, perhaps in such a strong way, that this is the last life-time that that specific karma will be an issue. And definately more indication of past-life recall through dreams and because of the intensity of Pluto, perhaps in waking concious too.
What do you all think?
Lisa

Lisa, thanks for requesting email exchange-I'm not certain how to do it, and have noticed some may be going about it with difficulty.

Just lately I've been awhirl in such vast thought that I've exhausted my ability to express myself clearly. I was so pleased with your descriptions of your life's-experience-Saturn in the 12th-and have much to say but, especially yesterday, was lacking for words to keep up with my thoughts.
Neverless, I'm commited to continue with understanding this--it's crucial to me. I'm so glad to have found others' with the same identification. It doesn't happen overnight, for sure, but to keep on is the only way to fulfillment.

With Love,
MS AVC

I'm calmer for hearing about those things more difficult, as I've had quite enough of my own to deal with lately.

With Love,
MS AVC

AVC, I know exactly how you feel about having difficulty expressing your thoughts. I have felt that way lately too.
Instead of words easily flowing, I feel as if I have to really think about what I am going to say and then my thoughts are clouded over easily and I lose focus.
Actually this is the first time for me requesting an email exchange, so I hope it will work out ok. Don't worry and take your time responding here. We'll take it as it comes.
Piscesdreamer,
No you didn't change the subject and we're interested in hearing anyone's 12th house experiences here.
Sounds as if your hardships in life have made you a strong person for having to deal with them. I think that shows the duality of Saturn and Pluto, that although they test us again and again, they also bestow the hidden reserves of strength needed to overcome.
Where is benevolent Jupiter lurking in your chart? Hopefully the lucky planet has some suprises in store for you yet.
Best wishes, Lisa

I'm interested in the twelth house, I don't have saturn there but i compensate for it with 3 other planets, Mars, Uranus, Pluto so I guess I'm all 12th housed wiped out, and all in Virgo!

It's facinating to hear everyones perspective on the 12th. (Regeneration is something I would do evey year as a teenager, it's a shame I don't still do it it's very healing.)

Just to add to the melting pot of info on this thread - the 12th is also an indicator of healing abilities, I think. Prehaps this might indicate that a saturn in the 12th house may working in a caring profession, I guess depending on the sign of the the 12th?

It's nice to hear that things going on in the 12th is a lot less negative than I've heard previously from people.

Snuff for now, I'll watch on the side - it's a truely facinating discussion.

Love and light

Lis

Piscesdreamer--you're right, Linda is guiding here, that's one reason this thread is especially at home in Linda's forum I'm glad you're feeling better about what you've discovered. I've got a lot of learnin' to do myself.

Tinkerbell--well said! You've got it right on the nose. So glad you are reading and adding. Please do anytime!

Blakeheart--I can see that you are dear to many here. You've posed some excellent questions and you've given this subject some punch.

Everyone--I need to spend some time today re-reading a lot of this thread. I've been feeling guilty for not putting more of myself into responding to thoughts and questions throughout the thread. I thank you all for understanding my frustrations I've mentioned. I am feeling better today

MS AVC

Actually, another day of mental-emotional-complexity going inside! Not that I expect much different the way things have been recently My day did start off light and sweet though!
Piscesdreamer, your encouragements mean more than I can say...you're very appreciated by me

With Love
MS AVC

So MS AVC, since your Saturn in the 12th is in Pisces (right?), then it would help you to look at where your Neptune is in your chart and also the house where Capricorn is (Saturn rules Capricorn). In the book she says that Saturn can bring reality to your dreams, and the house with Capricorn on the cusp can show you how this can happen. Your Cap is at home in the 10th house, so I see a strong relation of the two houses, showing that if you discipline your actions and focus on work or career, you will find sucess and happiness. Also since your 12th is in Pisces, the career would most likely be a creative one, involved in writing, religion or spirituality.

And so, for those of you out there who have no planets in the 12th the key is to look at the sign your 12th is in and it's ruling planet and find where that is in the horoscope. There you will find the connection of how the 12th house expresses itself in your life.
Anyway, I'm still learning and this is all so fascinating to me.
Hope I've helped in some way!
Love to all you 12th house dreamers, Lisa

p.s. MS AVC, I still haven't received your email adress, so I guess I'll have to try again! Hope all is well with you!

I've been trying to open this thread for a while tonight....it wouldn't show me the newest post,until now...

Now that I've got it open
I wanted you to know I read it and I've got thoughts to respond with...
I'll do it when I'm not so woozy-tired

12th or bust!!LOL

With Love,
MS AVC

[This message has been edited by MS AVC (edited 12-05-2000).]

I don't know if it will ever show up, but, when I edited my last messege I made note of "12th or bust" being my attempt to lighten up what has been heavy on my days lately. (and although there was indication I was succesful in editing, I didn't see it show up).

Also, thank you Blakeheart for the update on email request....I wanted to make a point about the subject of this thread. Hope it gets here soon Hope you and your family are well

With Love,
MS AVC

[This message has been edited by MS AVC (edited 12-05-2000).]

Blakeheart thanks for helping me figure this out. Now in my case, I've got Capricorn cusp in both my 10th and 11th house....hmmmm, I'm wondering...with all the Saturn and Cappy influence in my chart/life, perhaps it emphasizes restriction (in those areas). But, as you refer to empowering (elsewhere), I do see a connection between Saturn's limits at work and the potentials waiting in the houses it rules. I'm going to read up on it--thanks for pointing out those connections I'll let you all know what I come up with.

MS AVC

Your last post gave me a thrill. In your last paragraph, about making dreams reality, that has been what my whole past year was all about. I had learned it and know it's true. Then I also saw that when I encouraged friends to think like that, their dreams came true too! Your book sounds like one I must have soon. Thank you again and again.

MS AVC, looking forward to what you come up with next!

Love,
Piscesdreamer

I'm so happy that you're attached to this, and learning from it, as I am Isn't it nice to do that with others? I get a lot out of it. I'm curious....what are your personal planets?....Sun, Moon, Rising, if you don't mind saying, and any others you could add. I'm not sure if you mentioned them to me before--but you are such a nice person -and I'm interested in how all this stuff looks from your point of view

I'm enthusiastically looking forward to sharing what I "come up with next" as you put it lol

With Love,

MS AVC

I would be happy to share my "stuff" with you! Wow, today it is my turn to be having an unexpected kind of day. So much happening all the time now, essentially of an inner nature like you were saying a couple of days ago.

My sun is 14 deg of Pisces (oh I see here that was 6th house not 7th); moon is 20 deg of Aries (8th house); rising is 25 deg. of Virgo; Mercury is 0 deg. of Pisces; Venus is 3 deg. of Pisces; Mars is 21 deg. of Taurus (9th house); Jupiter is 28 deg. of Virgo (first house); Saturn is 14 deg. of Sag (third house, yes, on chart drawing); Uranus is 3 deg. of Leo (11th house); Neptune is 2 deg. of Scorpio (2d house) Pluto is 28 deg. of Leo (12th house).

It will be really fun to see "what you come
up with" now! Thank you.

Love,
Piscesdreamer

thanks for putting your "stuff" up. I've developed a bit of a cold today so I've got to lay low awhile. It will give me a chance to read and catch up on the chart study. Having your planets to look at can help me to see a chart at a different angle than mine --and perhaps you too!

With Love,
MS AVC

getting a little restless laying around, but at least got some much needed extra sleep....aaah....also,read up more astro-lessons. I recently bought Star Signs--never read it before, but eyed it several times at the bookstore. It will make sense to me, I just know.

I'm thinking of checking out getting ICQ hooked up. Any of you familiar with it?
Not sure if I'm up to doing it tonight, but seems like a swell idea.

With Love,
MS AVC

That's great that you were able to help your friends too, Piscesdreamer!
One thing I forgot to mention about Pluto in the 12th was that friends and family see you as a tower of strength, which always suprises you because you don't perceive yourself in that way.
I have been thinking about fire-sign 12th's too because yours is in Leo and mine is in Aries. When I read up on Saturn in the 12th for me, it said that I fear EVERYTHING in life until I face my fears and open myself up to experience. I didn't see that in myself much, although I was shyer when I was young, and have learn to relax and overcome that in my life. But other than that I don't have much fears, so maybe it is because of the Aries brash and agressive influence in such an introspective and meditative House. I thought of your Leo placement too and the contrast there because Leo is such an extroverted and open sign, whereas 12th house seems to relate to things behind-the-scene and the subconcious. I hope I am making sense here...ya know what I mean?
Hi, MS AVC!
Sorry to say I am clueless when it comes to
ICQ, but I know others here at Linda's are familiar with it, so hopefully you'll get good advice on how to get started with it.
I just got my computer a few months ago, so it is all new to me!
Glad to hear you got some much needed rest!
Talk to ya guys soon, Lisa

So glad you had your rest. Star Signs is a blast!

Dear Lisa,

What you said about the "tower of strength" is true! Surprising yes. I figured that the Pisces listening power makes people lean on me, and I try to keep people calm and clearheaded in a crisis. Pluto must have been helping me.
I also was painfully shy as a child, a very late bloomer. Not big problems communicating, but I was always the watcher and listener, not good at reading social situations. That got better in my 30's!

This has been my week: First, last Thursday I had a VERY romantic day. That night and the next day my love was having chest pains and had to spend four days in the hospital. Abnormal EKG. Seems okay, not a heart attack and they did not find anything. But he quit smoking anyways. Another VERY romantic day today already! That Aries is back, stronger than ever!

LOVE,
Piscesdreamer

Piscesdreamer!! Wow, seems you have had quite a week! How scary that must've been for your Love to have the heart problems and have to stay in the hospital. My goodness what a blessing it must be to have your Love out of there, also quit smoking (I assume that's the Aries?--not YOUR fiery Aries moon you speak of ).....and stronger than ever. I'm thouroughly romantic so I can relate to your joy. Wow again--so happy for you...

Blakeheart, your writing here always gives me thought Tonight I may even add some of it. I'm feeling better today. Still a bit drained but full of positive thought.

I've had the inspiration to create another thread for Saturn in each of the twelve Houses. This thread still has a good energy so it would be nice to keep it around, although it is becoming long and takes awhile to load. Hmmm? I'm not too savvy on the way threads work best when they become long, considering it may change the energy. We'll see I suppose....

There's something very peaceful in Linda's forum. I find this a perfect place to talk and think about this subject (hmmmm again, is the connection the 12th House need for peace and thought--and Linda's energy here?). Linda's the person-author who guided me here. I've been reading her works since I was about 12. I started with Sun Signs. Much later I got Love Signs--probably in my early twenties. A couple weeks ago or so, I picked up Gooberz and Relationship Signs--then about a week ago Star Signs. I've read very little of Gooberz--just the very first part....all I can say at the moment is I completely get it. In fact, I'm trying to savor it by not reading it up to quick. There's much more on that, but I could go on and on and on As for Star Signs, I still haven't started it-there's some "key" there for me, and a connection,I feel, with what we're talking and thinking about on this thread.

With Love,
MS AVC

MS AVC, funny that you mentioned discovering Linda at 12 (I did too!) because a while back a thread was started on how did you discover astrology and A LOT of people mentioned age 12 as the time that they did.
A magical age of discovery!
You're saying farewell to childhood and on the brink of adult-hood and your eyes are becomming open to so many new ideas.
Yes, Star Signs is really awesome!
Linda reveals so much wisdom and ancient mysteries and in her usual entertaining and engaging way!
A new thread on Saturn in the Houses sounds very interesting. Feel free to start it whenever the feeling strikes you. There is really no rules to follow. It seems everyone here is pretty laid back and open and that is one of the reasons that I love it here!
Love and Oneness, Lisa

whenever I see that word in print I hear the voice of one of those old recordings you get when you call for the time....POPCORN....I remember a couple different ones but in this case it was a sort of cheery southern-accent--always made me laugh a little I'm in a sorta silly mood anyway.
The reason I POPPED by.....about 20 minutes ago I received a wrong-number phone call from a woman asking for .....Linda! I found it kind of humorous actually, and thought it would be appropriate to share here. I don't know about numerology but I'll keep the phone number....perhaps at some point I'll give it a spin.

Lisa-one thing I didn't fail to notice is the age 12--when I started reading about astrology--and the 12th House thing going here. I thought of that after I sent my post yesterday. I haven't seen the thread you mention about "how did you discover astrology" but that sounds interesting and I'll want to look it up soon.

I may put up some of that other Saturn material tonight, or soon.

With Love,
MS AVC

I've wanted to ask you about Maddie How is she? I've had a VERY tumultuous experience with someone I love having cancer. It's still too hard to talk about, it's that fresh. It crushed a part of me....

but that's not what I want to dwell on right now I'd very much like to hear about your niece....if you feel like it. I hope you and your family are doing well

With Love,
MS AVC

[This message has been edited by MS AVC (edited 12-08-2000).]

I was wondering what the significance of the twelfth house is- and also what does it mean when a house is empty. Do the planets in certain houses represent areas we need to understand more in this lifetime? Do empty houses mean that we have already dealt with that and those areas are neutral?

I would love to hear more about this-thanks!

this Tweltfh House subject is one which fascinates me. I don't know enough about it from an astrological point of view to answer your questions. I often find it more helpful to discuss issues with other's than simply reading from a book. However, I'd recommend the book I've been using to quote from on this thread (and the Saturn in the 12 Houses thread). There's another one I've heard is good called "Saturn, a New Look at an Old Devil," by Liz Greene. I hope someone is able to discuss your questions with you

With Love,
MS AVC

This discussion has been quite enlightening.I too have Saturn in the 12th house.Actually,my
12th house (Libra)is packed with planets.Besides Saturn,there is Pluto,Jupiter
and Mercury.Can somebody tell me what that means?

Here's some info from the book "The Houses" again:

Mercury in 12th:

Mercury in the 12th House is a great position for writers. Communicating from behind the scenes is easy for you. This does not mean that everyone with Mercury here is automatically an author, but many famous writers share this position. The type of writing will be revealed by the house with Gemini on the cusp: 5th or 8th Houses, sex, romance or mystery novels; 9th or 12th, historical books; 3rd or 6th, technical or how-to manuals; 12th, plays or poetry; 4th or 12th, mucial composition.

You have the need to communicate in a private way, and many times you may not be verbally articulate but can express well in letter writing or through poetry or a diary. This again suggests that as a youngster you may have been shy, a shrinking violet, a wallflower. However, you certainly are not doomed to inarticulateness. As Mercury moves into your 1st House, you find ways to get your point across. And of course, you don't even have to wait for Mercury to cross your Ascendant. You, of all people, are often finely in tune with your subconscious, being able to act on your hunches, gaining invaluable insights through meditation/prayer. Though you may have moments of inhibition, when you start working with your Gemini/Virgo cusp Houses you will find avenues where you are comfortable communicating.

Jupiter in 12th House:

This planet in this house has long had the reputaion for being lucky, probably due to Jupiter's ancient rulership of Pisces, the natural 12th House sign. Certainly in expands your subconscious, your ability to "sense" the unknown. With Jupiter in the 12th, religion, metaphysics and/or philosophy play important roles in your life, but you tend to keep your philosophies to yourself, unless Jupiter rules the 1st,7th, 9th or 10th Houses. You tune in easily and take for granted what others often missunderstand or cannot be bothered with, so you often make an excellent teacher of esoteric subjects.

Wherever Jupiter is in the chart, it expands your sense of justice, compassion and spiritual understanding. With Jupiter here, you frequently give for the sheer joy of giving; your charitable acts often go unnoticed, but this is fine with you. Jupiter rules preservation as well as expansion, so there is a saving grace with this planet in the 12th. You always seem to get bailed out at the last minute when things get tough.

Welcome to Linda's, Eagle!!
Hope that helped.
Best wishes, BlakeHeart

Thanks a lot for the valuable info.
Hope it didn't take up too much of your time,
Blakeheart.

Also thanks for the welcome and the compliment.

Hope you have a great day!

Bye!

What does it mean when one's 12th contains two of the most important things in a natal chart...i.e. the Sun AND Moon? My friend was born on Feb 12th, 1983, at 7:43 am, in Eureka, CA and he has this placement...he also has Saturn in Sco in the 8th! Can anyone shed some light on these placements? Thanks you!!!!

Pippy

[This message has been edited by Aries (edited 01-06-2001).]

Pippy

Good shot!!

I have Jupiter in Cancer in the twelth house conjunct my 9th house ruler,Mars. Most people wouldn't classify me as a very religeous person, yet it is to me, the most important part of my life and relationship to others. Yet, I am very circumspect in discussing my views with anyone. I feel violated when anyone pressures me to reveal my views, and I don't attend church services, this also has a habit of making me feel violated.

I wanted to ask though I also have Mercury and Venus conjunct in the twelth (they are in Leo). Venus is the ruler of my third, and Gemini is the cusp of my 11th house. I am working on a degree in Journalism. My creative writing has lead me to a lot of personal truths about life, death, and everything in between, but I have a hard time sharing any of it outside of my immediate circle. Yet, of all the articles I have written, my favorites are the humor pieces (Venus and Merc are trine my Sag Moon). My question is this: what does it suggest to have my eleventh house cusp in Gemini? That one is over my head. I would apriciate the help. Of all the things I've seen, I've always been most perplexed by my twelth house placements. Perhaps because that Merc is Square my Neptune.

Piscesdreamer,

Great to see you again. I sould have guessed you had placements in the twelth.

Hope your husband is feeling better. They can be a pain at times, but their also lovely to have around at three in the morning when you need someone to kick in your sleep. Otherwise, you might fall off the bed.

Beee Good and take care,

Love,
Laura

Somewhere on this thread it was said that Mercury in the 12th could be good writers - which is interesting as everyone always says to me that I should write!! I do enjoy writing but usually letters etc as I can't think which subject matter to write about for anything else (hope that makes sense!)The comment someone made (sorry can't remember who, as it's a long thread)that to see what type of writing you'd be good at - you should look at which house gemini is on the cusp of interested me. Why is that?? Also I think gemini is on the cusp of my 10th house so what would that mean??

I'd really appreciate everyones comments.
Thanks
Love
Sue

Yes i am also fascinated by 12th house, which contains my Virgo sun. My Saturn is in House 3. I also write. My Mercury is in 11. My gemini is on house 9.

But yes, 12th house is very interesting.

Tink- I just noticed in yr. post describing Saturn in House 3- that is so accurate, it's almost eerie. Someone told me once with a saturn in house 3 it made me a "jumpy philosopher" I like that sound of that, do you?

Blake- I never considered a historical novel, except in the sense of personal history. Isn't house 9 spiritual matters? So, why history? I could do spiritual history i guess....

Hiareth

[This message has been edited by hiareth (edited 01-20-2001).]

I have to say that I am no expert astrologer by far and tend to refer to the books that I have on the subject, but looking into your questions is a great way to learn!

Bordercat,
I was reading up on Mercury and Neptune squared and I found more confirmations on writing ability!
It said:
Need to create one's own reality, spiritual insights. Lies and misunderstandings, misinformation, forgetfulness, fuzzy or unclear thoughts, colorful dreams and ideas, poetic imagination, powerful need to communicate greater sense of self, dreamy idealist, romantic thoughts.
And also said for Mercury, Venus and Mercury combined aspects, a need to write or voice feelings and ideals.

Bob Dylan also has Mercury and Neptune squared, so need I say more? lol

It seems it is indeed very important to express yourself to others, as also for Venus and Mercury conjunction:
One can speak beautiful words or express harmonious ideas without even trying.
Especially good for writing poetry and expressing the ideal and archetypal.
As for being in your 12th House, I think that there is an ease and longing to express your inner world of thoughts and beliefs, spiritual insights.
I haven't figured out what could be preventing you from wanting to share your writing with others, except for the fact that your writing ability seems to be centered on your 12th house, which is the private, introspective, subconscious side of yourself. Also Gemini in your 11th house, which is the house of friends, hopes and wishes, also links again to your 12th house, because when a house is empty you look for the tie of it's ruler, which in this case is Mercury (Mercury rules Gemini).
It would make sense that you would find it easier to share with your inner circle of friends.

Cat, (2 cats! Funny!),
I guess that Mercury denotes writing skills because it is the planet of communication, whether that is the written or spoken word.
Wow !! Active 12th house there!
I wouldn't know how to begin to interpret that! (anyone else know?)
Once again, like bordercat, your Gemini (Mercury ruler) links back to your 12th house. In my novice opinion I would say that although you may change careers a few times in your life, your dream career would involve a way of combining communication skills with 12th house concerns. Possibly writing or speaking about spirituality, religion or metaphysics. And because of your Venus in 12th, this communication could also take on forms of expression related to poetry or art.
Mars in the 12th shows how great energy could be channeled into this and Pluto would give you the endurance and seriousness to see it through. I hope that made sense!

Hiareth,
Yes, personal history seems to fit, especially since your Sun is in the 12th, and you would be greatly drawn to explore the depths of your inner self.
I am not sure why the 9th house would mean history, except that the 9th house deals with higher learning,and exploration, so in a quest for knowledge, studying history might be a path of interest that might lead you to revelations about your soul's path in this life.

Best wishes on your quests! Lisa

You're absolutely correct about career changes. I have had a few total career direction changes - mind you I have only had a few jobs - tend to stay where I'm at for a very long time. Currently am in a complete limbo (have been for about 2 years) - looking for a new direction but don't know where to go. You've certainly given me some things to think about. Thanks.
Talk to you soon. have a great day
Love
Sue

I can, most certainly, understand not noticing. I've been doing a lot of that over the last couple of days. I guess I spent to much time attending to details early in the week. By the time I had time to check this thread, I had no mind left to attend with. Ha Ha Ha

Thanks for the observations. Yes, I do believe I feel an overwhelming need to communicate, but as my writing instructor pointed out, I have no future without the spell checker. Ha Ha Ha

Another writing instructor pointed out to me that without the more practical fundamental skills, even the most creative person can not properly express themselves. I don't know but for some reason I still want to kick that man. Reallly hard!

Love and Laughter,
Laura

Your post is interesting. I have natal Saturn in my 12th house. To me/for me, it's the perfect place for it to "be." Natally, I have a lot of planetary aspects to it, also. In an otherworldly sense, I feel an understanding of Saturn, an affinity,....sort of like seeing it from inside, outside, and the angles the 12th house stands for, which can't quite be explained in plain language. It's kind of ironic that Saturn so stands for our ability to thrive in our worldly/earthly existence. It seems that to have it in the 12th, if I may understate it, is both difficult and blessed. Your 12th house planetary placements differ from mine, (in what you've posted), but it seems you do understand it in your way. I do have an affinity with your experience, although I'm sure our life experiences have been different. I hope you get the magical blessings of your 12th house to enjoy in this life. You do know what it's about, and we all do....on some level. I hope my somewhat Neptunian words make sense to you, too
Love,
MS AVC

My seven year old granddaughter has Saturn in the 12th. And she also has a lot of other "strange" stuff to deal with. She has a Scorpio Sun, a Scorpio Moon, and six Scorpio planets,in all, most in the EIGHTH SCORPIO HOUSE!

I have discussed this on the "Ask The Astrologer" forum, and Dave thought her chart was unusual enough to post, so there it is - big as life....on my thread "Chart filled with mostly Scorpio Planets".....

She moved from Michigan to Tennesee nearly two years ago, and is living with her mom there, so her dad (my son) has faded a bit from her life....she makes summer and Christmas visits, tho...

I'm keeping a close eye on her....with her tons of Scorpio energy that needs to be channeled in a positive direction! So far,so good. Her energy goes into singing, dancing, acting, and cheerleading...she's a real sweetheart (most of the time) *smile*...

Just wanted to share....

Love and peace,
Rainbow~

------------------

Does she get her own way a lot? She WOULD LIKE to get her way more often than she does...but thanks so some great parenting, she is not given in to that much. I'm very grateful that her mom has a little knowldege of astrology (plus some things I've helped her with) and is very aware of some of the challenges she might be in for, raising her.

I have some photos of her on my website, if you'd like to see her..
http://arkangel007.homestead.com/home.html

Pisces Dreamer..............I have Pisces Moon, Venus and Saturn, so I identify with that sign a lot too...(Tianna has Pisces Rising).....as a matter of fact, when I filled out my profile couple years ago, I filled in "dreamer" for my occupation....and it's more true than one might imagine.

Joy, I'll keep you posted on Tianna. I don't have as much contact with her since she moved south...I really miss her...I do have faith that her mom will be guiding her Scorpio energy in a positive direction....and I do realize that's going to be a job....

Peace & Love,
Rainbow~

------------------

Love and Peace,
Rainbow~

------------------

Peace and love,
Rainbow~

------------------

And the 12th house forever remains a mystery

ALSO..I have a Venus-Neptune square and I was told that this is a sign of addiction of some sort...if that were the case, it would explain a lot about me(even moreso since my Saturn is in the 5th house)....can someone confirm this for me?

Thanks!!!

[This message has been edited by thegirl (edited 04-10-2001).]

i have the venus-neptune square also, and i do not have any addictions. i have read in the book "Karmic Astrology" that this aspect denotes an artistic individual who is constantly working to make the symbolism or existence of neptune's idealism of true love, coincide the "realities" of the world.

in other words, we have this picture of what love really is suppose to be like, but find conflict with the world's defintion of love, be it material, power, sex, etc. etc. (i hope this makes sense). as a result, we work even harder to make these things coexist in our lives, and face hardships with well, you know.

i also have an empty 12th house, but i honestly don't know what it is suppose to symbolize.

cheers,

amy

An overinvolvement in unrealistic illusions IS one symptom of addictive behavior and personality, so an afflicted Neptune IS often a signature of alcoholism or drug addiction. But since Neptune also denotes idealistic aspirations, a Venus square Neptune can mean struggle balancing your personal love experiences with you ideal expectations for love. This is where interpretive skill comes in, seeing which interpretation best fits the particular individual circumstances.

As for the empty 12th house, it has no special significance aside from an absences of 12th house qualities in the personality -- these would be drives or qualities related to feelings of responsibility (or guilt), humanitarian service, institutions and the collective unconscious.

Greg